Why Care? #39: Amber Cabral - Say More About That
“I encourage people in my books to please lean into your privileges, they give you a chance to show up as an ally, take advantage of all of them and I do but I simultaneously also understand the implications of what not having that access looks like. And even though I can't fix all of that, I also have a bit of responsibility to be a part of the solution.”
In Episode 39 of Why Care?, I am joined by Amber Cabral to delve into her second book, Say More About That. We cover topics including how to use the best language to stand up for change, and how organisations can nurture a positive feedback culture and ensure accountability. We also discuss poignant issues, such as pushing back, calling out, taking ownership of family trauma, and standing up for our boundaries.
Amber’s passion for DEI is evident through her experience as a global inclusion leader, executive coach, best-selling author, and TEDx and keynote speaker. She has managed her own boutique company, Cabal Co for almost two decades, developing strategies and coaching large global brands to achieve sustainable and inclusive behavioral shifts. Her first book, Allies and Advocates, was released in 2020 and explored building a culture of inclusion at work and how to use privilege to be a better ally. Amber initially stumbled into the world of diversity during her time at the Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, where she served as a Diversity Council Leader. She then found a way to integrate diversity and equity into every subsequent role, later becoming the Senior Diversity Strategist for Walmart. Amber hosts a podcast ‘Guilty Privilege’ and is committed to empowering the next generation of diverse decision-makers. She volunteers on the Board of various organisations, including Brown Girls Do, a non-profit dedicated to promoting diversity in the arts, and the National African American Women’s Leadership Institute.
During our discussion, Amber explains that she was initially inspired to put pen to paper after her colleague, Amanda Miller Littlejohn, pinpointed how she “always had the right words to say,”, especially on topical issues such as inclusion or violating boundaries. She therefore framed her book as a toolkit to help empower people to navigate their path to inclusion and equity. She hopes to guide everyone to choose the best language to speak up for themselves and others, especially those who experience microaggressions or exclusion, or those who feel too cautious to speak up.
Amber shares her own relatable experiences, which shaped her adult life and her journey to inclusion and equity. She recounted how she had an unrelenting determination to bring about change from a young age. This included her insistence on writing her unique version of the letter Z, much to the confusion of her parents and teachers. After she realized that the letter is universally understood and accepted by everyone, she finally decided to let this battle go. Similarly, for organisations, when it comes to nurturing inclusive spaces and challenging inequity, we have to have a broader mindset and look beyond ourselves. Amber encourages us to be mindful of every side, consider what each person needs to feel equally included, look out for others, and consider if each battle to bring about disruption or change will have the right impact on the wider community.
Amber highlights the importance of providing feedback - if we don’t speak out when we are offended, we can’t grow on the path to inclusion. She then offers tools and strategies for organisations and leaders to foster an environment of feedback, and explains the power of holding others accountable, as well as how to prepare and respond to negative feedback. Amber then discusses how to approach pushing back on people in a non-confrontational, but influential way, especially when they’re not being equitable, or inclusive, or are putting others in an oppressive space.
Next, we move on to the emotive topic of family trauma, and how it influences and shapes our ability to speak up about inclusion. She reveals how, rather than shying away from our family traumas, cultural stereotypes, and differences, we should take ownership and embrace our narrative. We can then use these issues as an opportunity to help us navigate how we respond, create meaningful dialogues with others, and behavioural shifts. Amber then elaborates more about creating boundaries, and the value of recognizing our needs, delegating, and not taking on too many roles or becoming accountable for too many things.
Amber focuses on the following key concepts of her book:
- Feedback - how we need to create mechanisms and tools for organisations and leaders to help nurture a culture of feedback. This will enable fostering an environment where everyone feels comfortable to be open and share. Equally, the power of holding everyone accountable, and motivating them to take ownership of their actions, can help bring us all closer to understanding and solutions.
- Pushing back - If we witness people putting others in an oppressive space, but are cautious to speak up, especially if there’s power at play or in a crowded room, Amber suggests a safe, non-confrontational strategy to push back. Firstly, acknowledge that you respect and value the other person, their opinion, or their superiority level. Next, show curiosity, ask thought-provoking questions, or inject some humour, and you can help others be conscious of what they are saying, and influence them to shift their behaviour.
- Family trauma - Amber recognises that if you grew up in a family that tended to speak out about pertinent issues, such as racism or discrimination, this will inform how much you speak up. In this light, many underrepresented groups may be more cautious about speaking up because of embedded family traumas or because they don’t want to conform to societal stigmas.
- Taking ownership – Amber encourages us to recognise how it is not our responsibility to change our narrative, but it is our responsibility to be conscious of our family traumas or cultural stereotypes. In this way, we can acknowledge our differences, take ownership, use it as an opportunity to navigate how we respond, and bridge connections. One humorous ice-breaker is to call out the ‘elephant in the room’, such as stating “You may think I’m an angry black woman.” Acknowledging that others may have attached a stereotype to us, allows us to encourage them to be conscious about it and create a meaningful dialogue. In turn, this can make others accountable for their words and urge them to correct their behaviour.
- Standing up for our boundaries - Amber shares some words of wisdom about standing up for our boundaries, delegating, and the value of ‘not picking up the ball when it’s not yours.’ She shares relatable memories about how, in the past, she has ‘picked up the ball’ and tried to do it all herself, meaning that she would be held accountable. Amber advocates how we should recognise our needs, and not pick up too much, especially in the workplace. Instead, she prefers to delegate and take the time to guide and teach. Amber then discusses the interconnected world of standing up for boundaries, providing feedback, and the power of accountability. If we navigate these effectively, we can help ensure our cups are full. This can help us journey to an inclusive and equitable world where everyone’s voice is heard, equitable dialogues are initiated, and transformative solutions can arise.
Links:
Amber can be found on:
- Youtube
For more information about Amber, visit her website: https://www.ambercabral.com/
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Transcript
Amber Cabral 00:00
The goal is for everyone to have access to what they need to thrive, the goal is for everyone to have an opportunity to show up as their best. And if that's the case, we've got to be thoughtful not just about what I need and what I want to happen, which is very natural human behavior, you come into a space and you go, Hmm, I feel included here, you know. Then you don't really think about, well, who doesn't feel welcomed here? What are we thinking that might make it more inclusive for someone else. And that's really the mindset that we should be operating from. Because if you think of it this way, if you walk into a room full of 20 people, and you're only concerned about if you feel included, you're the only one looking out for you, everybody else is looking out for themselves. You walk into that same group of 20 people and everyone has the mindset of is this an inclusive space? Now you've got 20 people looking out for you. And 20 people looking out for them, you know, and everyone has the opportunity to have a greater impact because our lens has broadened beyond ourselves.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:02
Hi my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organisational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences, and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 39 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. I am so excited to share this episode with you as I speak to the brilliant Amber Cabral. Formerly a diversity strategist at Walmart stores, Amber founded Cabral Co to guide organisations in creating and executing strategies to achieve sustainable inclusive behaviour shifts. Amber Cabral is passionate about nurturing the next generation of decision makers. She serves as the chair of Brown Girls Do, a nonprofit committed to promoting diverse representation in the arts, as well as empowering women and girls globally. She hosts the fantastic podcast Guilty Privilege, and released her first book Allies And Advocates in 2020, which I highly recommend. In this episode, I get to delve into her second book, Say More About That, which was released in July 2022. We talk about how effectively to stand up for yourself and others who experience exclusionary behaviour or microaggressions. Amber Cabral explains how to create a positive feedback culture in organisations both in how people can give feedback as well as how they can respond. She offers some great stories, which highlights some common issues when it comes to calling in and calling out. And we discussed the sensitive topic of family trauma and how to manage it’s presence in the room. There is so much in this episode and so much wisdom in Amber Cabral's words, as she helps us find the best language to stand up for change. Enjoy.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:04 Amber, Hello, and a huge welcome to Why Care. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.
Amber Cabral 04:10
Thanks for having me. I appreciate the invite.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:12
Well, I'm super, super excited because our mutual friend Cherise Bernard, the incredible Cherise introduced us and she's spoken so highly of you. She was the one who signposted me to both of your books. And I'm very honoured that you have agreed to speak to me about your more recent book, Say More About That, which is actually just over a year old. Right? I saw your posts not that long ago to say it was one year old. Is that right?
Amber Cabral 04:41
Yes, it turned one years old in July, July 26 was the birthday of the book. And I always remember that because it's the birthday of my friend who wrote the foreword for the book.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:54
Nice. So for those who might not know you, Amber Cabral, it'd be great if you could just share little bit more about your background but also how you came to write. Say More About That.
Amber Cabral 05:05
Sure. My name is Amber Cabral, as you've already shared, I run a boutique inclusion and equity focused firm, we do a lot of training and coaching and strategy support for large brands that people know. So the stuff you typically are just saying, I probably work with one or two or those folks. And I kind of fumbled and stumbled into this work, actually, I used to work at Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan in that space. And I just started to love it. And so I found a way to put it in my job pretty much every job after that. Ultimately ended up leading diversity strategy for Walmart, left there started my own business accidentally. And so it's been about 20 years, or really more than that, of me working in this space. And I've just really liked the work a lot. And then the book came about because Amanda Miller Littlejohn, who wrote the foreword, she used to tell me like you always know the right words to say, you always have a comeback, whether that is someone that's like being rude, or, you know, you don't necessarily think that what they said was inclusive, or they are trying to violate boundaries, or something of that nature, which all of those things are things we have to think about when we're talking about access to equity, and how to navigate them. And so she's like this book needs to be, it needs to be about what do I say when it's happening to me. And so Say More About That, naturally, I don't even know how to do that. And she outlines it in so a book was born.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:27
Incredible. And she was right because this book, I have to say I found it is so helpful to have a framework or a structure or just something to be able to use in order to address certain things that are behaviours towards me that I've seen and acted towards other people. It's one of those things that evokes so much of like it’s an immediate emotional trigger. Oh, my goodness, what do I say to that? Did that actually happen? Did I mean it, probably didn't mean it, there's loads of things that go through my head. And then by the time I've actually figured out what I might have said in moments past, and it's far too late to go back. So I've really appreciated your book, I highly recommend to anyone to read this book. It's just full of stories. It's so easy to read. And there's so much value in every page. So thank you for writing it.
Amber Cabral 07:20
Thank you for that glowing review. I feel like I wish I could record that and stick it on Amazon. You know, sometimes it's hard to explain to people what the book is about, because when you say to someone, yeah, the book is about pushing back and speaking up and like standing up for your boundaries. Most people think of themselves as people who do that, well, like when you just stand in the moment and go, Oh, yeah, I stand up for myself, you know, but it's in the moments that it happens that they're like, oh, I don't know what to say right here. Or they elect to not say anything, or, you know, they're frustrated now, they’re the leader because they want to say something, but don't know how to say without losing their jobs. Like we forget about those moments when someone says something like, oh, yeah, it's about how to speak up. People are like, we speak up all the time, you do. But there's a lot of time that you don't. And so I love what you just shared because I think it really captures what my intention was, is to give you support and a resource and some tactics to help you to navigate the ways that it is hard, because there's something at play, things like that, that make the push back, the speaking up, of kind of hard.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:22
Really tough. Start at the beginning of your book, because there are so many things I'd like to ask you. But one thing that really grabbed me was a really beautiful story that you told in your introduction of you as a girl, when you were really standing up for what you believed was the correct way of writing the letter Z, I loved this story. It made me smile, it still makes me smile. So what you were doing, I assume was writing a Z kind of like a letter S? Right. But sharp with points. And your mom really helpfully guides you. And she said, maybe since everyone in the world does it this way, and already understands it, it is okay for you to let this battle go. And I love that.
Amber Cabral 09:07
I remember vividly teachers circling the Z's, like these are wrong. This is not the way this letter is written. And, you know, just having defiance like, this doesn't look correct. Why is this the only letter that does this, this way? And I was unrelenting. And it literally just took a conversation. And I think that that's the kind of moment we also have to have with ourselves because there are times where sometimes we're really pushing for something and we haven't gotten clear about if that is something that makes sense for us. And so we have to be able to have the discernment of this is what I think is right. But is the other way actually harmful? Is it possible that the other way is also better? And so the work of inclusion and equity feels like that a lot of the time, you're on a journey towards access to equity in some way about something. And on that journey, you come across something and go wait, but this too, and if this is obstructive to this, wait a minute, I may need to pivot, which is why I always remind people that this is, it's both is you learning how to push and challenge and question and ask and, you know, uphold boundaries. But it's also you being willing to say, oh, I need to change right here. I apologise. And I didn't understand this information. But now I do, it has to be both of those for us to ever get to equity.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:34
And how do we know when to adapt to fit with the norm, fit with the majority, and when we should stand our ground?
Amber Cabral 10:44
Well, if we just kind of go back to the example that you just shared, that's in the start of the book, I think we have to be able to recognise when something is valuable to the community. So being able to step back and look at whatever it is that you are charging toward from that lens. Is this a benefit that is going to impact the whole? No, okay. But is it really going to impact someone that is oppressed that needs it? Yes. Okay, what is the best path to a solution that helps uphold both of those, because, again, the goal is for everyone to have access to what they need to thrive, the goal is for everyone to have an opportunity to show up as their best. And if that's the case, we've got to be thoughtful, not just about what I need, and what I want to happen, which is very natural human behaviour, you come into a space and you go, Hmm, I feel included here, you know, then you don't really think about, well, who doesn't feel included here? What are we thinking that might make it more inclusive for someone else? Yeah. And that's really the mindset that we should be operating from. Because if you think of it this way, if you walk into a room full of 20 people, and you're only concerned about if you feel included, you're the only one looking out for you, everybody else is looking out for themselves, you walk into that same room of 20 people, and everyone has the mindset of, is this an inclusive space, now you've got 20 People looking out for you, and 20 people looking out for them, you know, and everyone has the opportunity to have a greater impact because our lens has broadened beyond ourselves. And so we can make better decisions around what you just asked me, which is, is this right? Is this going to be the most impactful approach or solution to get to the place where everyone has access to equity?
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:26
I love that analogy. And whilst I'm in complete agreement with you, there is a part of me that just would like to imagine a world where Amber Cabral's just charged forward with the letter Z being written the other way, and the whole revolution, this whole kind of revolution just took place. Imagine.
Amber Cabral 12:44
Don’t worry, they’re lots of things I am going to be charging forth, it’s in there so it's happening, don't worry.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:53
Let's talk about the section I've found really helpful on feedback. And you say, if no one ever tells us when we have offended, our ability to evolve and move closer to being inclusive and equitable is limited, which totally makes sense to me. Of course, we need the feedback in order to understand and learn and grow as inclusive leaders. So my question here, though, is how do you create an organisation that culturally is mature enough to recognise that that feedback is important and can be received positively?
Amber Cabral 13:30
This is such a good question. And I'm gonna be very honest with you. This has been the question that has informed the way that my work is pivoting in the new year. To answer your question, I don't know that we found a lot of surefire this works ways. But there is one thing that we know changes how people show up and that's them actually doing the thing. We love a strategy. We love a plan. We love some beautifully laid out flights, right? We don't do a good job of holding people accountable for putting things into practice. So if you want it to come to life in your organisation, whether that's feedback, whether that is creating an environment where people feel safe asking questions, whatever the cultural shift might be that you're hoping to make that impacts what it feels like to work there, which is the culture people have to be willing to do it. Got to figure out how to incentivize that. Incentives aren't always money. Sometimes incentives are I know that someone's going to ask me about this in a way that I should be able to answer it publicly. So put people in the position where they know, I've got to be able to talk about this. I've got to be able to explain it to my team. I know. There's an expectation that this comes to life. And so it is thinking about the mechanisms that in each organisation look a little different, but what are the levers you can pull that will make this company say we've got to get better at feedback and so to do that we are putting it here, here and here. So that we start to get in the practice of it. If that doesn't happen, it's just lots of pretty charts and lots of gorgeous slides and lots of oh, this would be great. And we should move this way. And that honestly just doesn't move us forward.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:17
And it's a skill. And it's a practice, isn't it? So it's about just having the organization, the leaders, practicing giving, receiving feedback and supporting those who are receiving the feedback to know how to respond, because that's important to you, right?
Amber Cabral 15:33
It's giving folks the tactics and saying, this is the way that you do this. It's helping people understand that we are in the process of learning how to do this well, that people have grace for one another. It's then also saying, all right, where's this going to be in our organisation? Where does it show up in the talent pipeline? Where does it show up in our employee lifecycle? Where does it show up in our, you know, exit process and promotion process? And all those things? Where is it at? So that people have the expectation that feedback is a thing that we're working on, it's not something that we've talked about that we want to do, or that which happens with a lot of companies that we've decided as a part of our culture, but no one's really experiencing it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:14
To the point around what if it lands badly, because people often don't speak up, or they don't offer feedback or say something because they might not want to appear confrontational, but they might also be concerned about how that person is going to receive it. So whether they're going to be defensive or angry. So that could be harmful for their relationships. And there's a huge concern, I think, I felt this before where I'm sort of speaking personally, if someone does respond badly, to something that you've said, like, what's the way in which to defuse those sorts of situations?
Amber Cabral 16:45
First things first, people are going to misunderstand you, or you're going to say things that someone finds offensive, like both are true. So very often, the very first thing I think that's really helpful for people to do, is to just acknowledge that there is the chance of this not going well. That's the first thing, I am about to have a conversation where either someone is going to give me some feedback, and I could get upset, or I have to give some feedback and the person that I'm speaking to, could get upset. And when we acknowledge that that could be a part of it, the solution is not to decide, oh, I'm not going to do it, then because I don't want them to be upset. The solution is to prepare for what that looks like. So if we walk into a situation and you give some feedback, and someone gets really frustrated. The response in that moment might be, this doesn't feel like it's gonna be an effective conversation. So let's set up some time to have it when we're both ready to talk, I can tell that you're really frustrated, and I want to be respectful of the emotions you have around this. Is it better if we talk about this tomorrow morning, instead. Create the grace, we're living breathing humans, emoting all over the time. So we have to make space for the possibility that someone's like, whoa, you know, and the opposite is also true. You know, when you are in the position of not necessarily being the giver. But you are the receiver, you are having the moment, you are the one that's like, oh, wait a minute, I wasn't prepared for this. You can say that. I don't think this is the best time for me to talk about this. I think I need a little moment to process. Can we pick this conversation up at a later time. So buy yourself the grace. The example I often use when I facilitate is that when I get offstage, I'm kicking my own tail. It's just who I am. I'm like this, I forgot that. And I'm having like this, like influx of oh did that land well, was it clear, I have no bandwidth for feedback at that moment. I just don't. And so, but what very often happens is people come up, and they're like Oh, my God, it's so great. And then they also want to share what they loved about it, or they want to share Oh, I wish you had talked about this more or, and I can't, I just can't even process it. So I make a point to say I really value your feedback. I want to hear everything that you have to say, can you please share it with me in this way? Or can we please set up some time I would love to hear all of the things that you've gotten back so that I have a chance to incorporate adjust, learn, but I can't hear it right now because I'm overwhelmed. And most people are like, Oh my gosh, don't even think about that. I appreciate you, you know, asking.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:21
Yeah, and there's something there which I love, which is about understanding yourself, firstly, which is obviously vital to this, but also recognising what you need and giving yourself permission to ask for it. Because there's something certainly within me which is very much sort of wanting to please, wanting to offer to others and serve their need. If they're wanting to say something to me. I'm often more likely to say yes, even if it's not quite right for me.
Amber Cabral 19:51
Yeah, I tell people all the time. We don't notice it but a lot of the world is set up for us to make sure that we have a full cup. So oh, that might be secure your face mask before assisting others, or you know, my cup runneth over, your cup runneth over. And essentially, what's on the saucer is what you give, you should be full. And so if you are full, then you have to be really clear that like, Okay, I'm in a good full place, I can take this thing on, right? But when you're depleted, because you're processing, or you're trying to, like, you know, manage all of this other stuff that's going on in your brain, or life is just lifing. You know, my 2023 was life-lifing, then I have to know, okay, this isn't going to be the most effective approach right? Now, I have to do what's best. Because if I show up better in this space, I'm gonna be able to take what you tell me and do something about it. If I don't show up my best, if I don't keep in mind what I need first. I'm never going to be able to be effective with the information I get in the way that I'd like to because I'm depleted.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:55
Different approach, particularly when you're challenging upwards. So when there's power at play, or if there's lots of people in the room at what point do we change our approach?
Amber Cabral 21:09
I think all those can be an influential factor. If there is a roomful of folks, very often you are cautious, because you're like, how am I going to come across? How are people going to see me? I've heard a thing, it wasn't right. Did anyone else hear it? Am I the right person to say something about it?
You know, all of that that happens. And so when you're in that circumstance, I recommend that people ask a question, Can you say more about that, I'm not sure I follow what you were meaning? Because what happens is, someone's going to take that thing that they said, and run it back through their brain and go, Oh, this part probably didn't land well, and they'll adjust it and continue on. So that's a safe way to do it. It doesn't put someone in the position of being you know, well I think it was offensive, that you used the term or whatever it doesn't feel confrontational. So that's something you can do when you're in front of folks, and you're worried about it. That also works if you are managing up. But one of the things that also works really well for managing up is like really just acknowledging the power dynamic. I really appreciate the leadership that you provide for me, and I have something I'd like to share. Are you open to hearing some feedback right now? Right, acknowledging that I know that you are the leader, I know that you are the person who has the power, the influence in this space. A lot of times, that's what a lot of folks just want to kind of get clear on, you're the expert. And I respect that and I value it, and here's why. But I do have something I'd like you to be open to hearing, are you willing to do that, no one's gonna go no, you know, most people are absolutely, I'd love to engage you, you know. And that's when you get to slip in your observation or comment or query, and they've already given you the permission to do.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:47
There’s something around if they've said something versus if they've enacted something. So for example, if they've spoken over someone, repeatedly, the same person repeatedly in a meeting or slowed down their language, because they feel that someone's English isn't quite up to speed, or that's different, isn't it? In terms of your response?
Amber Cabral 23:09
Yeah, and each of those, there are tactics for those two. I'll give a couple of pointers for both of them. So if you're in a situation where someone is repeatedly interrupting someone, and it's a meeting, you can chime in and say, Oh, I think Amber was trying to say something. Amber, can you share your idea, I wanted to make sure that I heard your thought as well. And sometimes people cut folks off and don't realise it. And so that'll be the thing that helped them see, like, Oh, I did kind of interrupt Amber while she was speaking several times, and so they'll be more conscious of it. And it doesn't put you in the position of, you know, kind of being like, Look, you keep cutting Amber off, what's up with that, you know, which also works depending on the power dynamics, right. And then in this other circumstance that you were just describing, you're making assumptions about someone's ability, because you know, they sound different than you or they look different than you or their body works different than your body works, you know, so now you're like yelling at this person, because they're using a walker, which is ridiculous. But it happens, and I see it happen. I'm like, why are you yelling at these perople? You know, but when that's happening, I think the person that it's happening to one of the most powerful things that they can do is as confused as they possibly can muster up, say something along the lines of, Is there a reason that you're speaking so loudly, very perplexed, because it should be confusing for you. Our instinct is to be defensive. I often ask people to say okay, but what's after defensive? Like what is the other thing? Is it humour? Is it curiosity? Is it confusion? And a lot of times if we use that emotion instead of the defense like, What is your problem? No, we kind of get past the Okay, maybe what is your problem won't work here and go is there a reason that you're speaking so loudly to me? That person is going to shift their behaviour, they're going to do something different instead of what they were doing in that moment. And I actually just had this happen to me. Not exactly but sort of I, someone reached out to me via email asked if I would meet with, you know, their students or something. And I was like, Yeah, I would love to do this, connecting you with my admin, can you go ahead and you know, get it set up. Admin gets it set up, emails back okay, I've held your date, can you send us the link so we can join the meeting. Person’s response, like, Oh, that's perfect we would love to do that. doesn't send the link. We send another email, Hey, can we get the link to join the meeting we don't have the link, no reply. Send a third email, you know, can we get the link the night before? No reply. Next morning. I'm like, Okay, well, I can't do the meeting, because I don't have a link. I continue on with my day, end of the day comes around, and they send an email over that says, Oh, I'm so sorry for the technical difficulties that happened yesterday. Are you available tomorrow morning? No, I'm not available tomorrow morning. But also, what were the technical difficulties, you just didn't send the link? So I did not answer that email. I was like, feels maybe this is misdirected. I'm just not even going to reply. They sent the same email again, about a week later. Can we just have one a call tomorrow morning, I responded back to that email and said, unfortunately, I don't have the ability to meet with you at this point. Like we pride, it doesn't look like it's going to work. I regret though I can't do it. But between now and the end of the year, I'm just booked, I'm tied up. The email I got back was I think it started out as something like, I am sorry that it is too ambitious for us to ask for five minutes of your time in the last 39 days of the year. And I was like, wow, this is a lot, which of course my immediate reaction is, who are you to tell me how I run my day and my time, like, who are you? You know, but that's me being defensive.
Well, I moved that out the way. And I said, I wonder if they thought about this message before they sent it. So that's what I sent. My reply was, Wow, this is an interesting approach. Did you consider the tone of this message before you sent it? Now they haven't replied to me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:58
Have they not? Okay, I was wondering what the end of the story was
Amber Cabral 27:01
They probably won't because guess what they probably didn't consider that tone. What I think people define as confrontation, doesn’t feel confrontational, it feels more curious or inviting, or, you know, kind of injecting a little humour, then you tend to get a bit more of people kind of finding their way back into the appropriate behaviours, or they just move themselves out the way.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:24
I love that story. I can't tell you how many times those sorts of communications have happened and where I'm like, hang on a second, how do you get to speak like that. And of course, email is always a pitfall when it comes to communication and tone of voice and reading more into it. But that immediate kind of, oh reaction of frustration and annoyance, it's really important, I get it to just take a moment and think about what that response will be. I love that story. I'm wanting to pick up on something else that you said in your book, which is about how hard it is for people from underrepresented groups to push back or to speak up, because they don't want to play up to stereotypes. And you've said something which really sort of just really made me think which was, you know, often behaviour that we pick up from our parents, which is, silence can save our life. And you explain that this is a reaction to family trauma. And so I was curious, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind just unpacking that a little bit more? How does family trauma impact and influence our ability to speak up?
Amber Cabral 28:39
Yeah, so you learn whatever your upbringing, life, familial, early childhood experiences are, they inform how you show up. So I open the book talking about how my mother took me to the doctor, and the doctor would say, Do you have any questions? And she turned to me and go, do you have any questions, which made me feel like I get to have questions. And so I do. at my big age now I have questions.
Yes. And so the same is true for not so great behaviours, you know, as well. And so if we grew up in a household where there was a lot of conversations about access to safety, if you overheard your parents talking about the way people treated them at work and the discrimination that they faced in the workplace and how they were navigating it, if you had the experience of a family member having a dangerous or awkward encounter with law enforcement, if you grew up in a neighbourhood where the boys were permitted to do things that the girls were not permitted to do, all of that shapes who and how you grew up. And one of the things I always remind people is like, your trauma is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. And that sucks because it's not your fault, right but no one can fix it for you. And you throwing it around at people is honestly not going to fix anything. You just have to take responsibility for it, which is kind of wack because like, it's not mine, I didn't want this. And so one of the things I try to encourage people, which is, I think a little bit unique from what I see a lot of other equity leaders do, is I try to encourage people to have at least awareness of the trauma, as well as the potential stereotypes that are attached to you. I know a lot of the things that are going to be attached to me just simply because I'm a black woman, I know angry black woman is a thing. I know when I'm very expressive people are like, Whoa, that's a lot. You know, like, I know that there are just things when I speak well, I know someone at some point is going to let me know, I'm articulate, you know, like, it's just I know those things. And because I'm aware of them, I can navigate them a lot better, because I do my best to not let them trigger me because I'm like, Oh, I know where that rope comes from. I know, it's from, you know, something I saw in my childhood or something I've seen repeatedly happen to people who look or sound like me. And so it's a lot easier for me to not respond to that. And also, to in some ways use it to help build a bit of a bridge or connection or open some opportunity. And so there are times where I have said something along the lines of you know, I'm the only Black woman in the room, I'm nervous about saying something, I'm nervous because I am the only Black woman in this room. So I will say something that will sound a little bit like, you know, I recognise that I'm the only Black woman in this room. And so, you know, I may have a bit of a unique perspective. Are you willing to hear that? And everyone in the room is gonna go? Yes. Okay. And they're going to actively try to hear you without the judgement of you being the only Black woman in this room, because you called it out. Right? You didn't call it out and an accusing way, but you made it really clear. Like, I know, this little thing right here could be in the room, and I don't want it to get in the way. Are we okay, talking about stuff without this getting in the way, right. And so it's tough, because there are some people that want it to just go away, I don't even want you to even see me as a Black woman, I should be considered as an equitable member of this team, period. I shouldn't have to say that. And so you don't have to but if you make note, it is a tool that you can use. Alternatively, you can always omit that part and simply say something that sounds a little bit like this. So I have a bit of a different perspective that may come from some of my experiences. And I'm a little concerned about how that's going to come across. Are you all open to getting a little bit uncomfortable with me for a moment? Invite people join into the challenging part. We like a little bit of a warning. You know, we like you I hope you enjoy roller coasters. Like if someone put you on a ride, and it just drops down something you’ll be like that was terrible I will never do this. But you like roller coasters because you kind of get to see, and you're like, Oh, I might want to do that. That looks kind of fun, even though it's scary, right. And so the same is true in conversation. And in navigating a lot of just like our cultural traumas, our childhood traumas, the way those work, find the ways to make really good peace with them. And then there are always going to be those that are just kind of hard limits for you. I definitely have a couple things that when they are stated, it's hard for me to not like respond, you know, I cannot stand when people call me aggressive. It just really gets under my skin.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:18
Do people actually turn around and say you're pretty aggressive?
Amber Cabral 33:23
People call me aggressive all the time. Because I'm straightforward, because I'm open to sharing my ideas. And I've just gotten in the habit of like, I feel that feel that. And I usually will go, I really struggle when people call me aggressive. Is that the right language? Or is it possible that you're just a little bit uncomfortable with what I've shared in this moment? Like, I want you to think about that. Because you've said something that I'm telling you bothers me. Let me know if that's really what you meant or is it possible that there's something else? And so like this tactic, what it does, though, is it does exactly what I talked about, that this trauma is not your fault, is your responsibility. What is taking responsibility for it look like in terms of helping to bring equity into your world? How do you take advantage of that, instead of seeing it as a people should not do this thing, period. Because we all know that that doesn't work? People are going to still do it?
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:17
Yeah. So what you're saying is that people will likely continue to see you as aggressive and chances are, they'll probably continue to refer to you as aggressive or give you that feedback. And so it's important to, that responsibility, then, isn't to try and change every person on this planet in how they label Black women, for example, but to understand and recognise what that triggers in you or activate in you, and how you can respond to them.
Amber Cabral 34:47
And give them the ability to navigate that risk. So what I'm doing is acknowledging, I know there's a possibility here that you might see me as an angry Black woman or you know, something of that nature, one of these stereotypes, when I kind of bring it into the space, it actually gives you a chance to practice looking at me without that. No, no, no, no, I don't see you that way. So now you're actively trying not to, as I tell you that I'd like to say. And so I think awareness, and a willingness to navigate this, in this way, is more effective than what I think a lot of folks try to do, which is say, don't say this to Black women don't do this to gay people don't talk to disabled folks in this way. I think that that's what happens. And I also think it puts us in the best position kind of going back to feedback for that person you're talking to, to correct, for them to say, instead of referring me to me this way, I think a better approach would be this way. You kind of create a space where dialogue can actually happen about the differences, like the differences are here and us trying to pretend like they're not isn't effective. Well, what if we actually kind of put folks in the position to be accountable, like I have this trauma for a reason I've got to navigate it. So let's put it in there. And figure out how we can have a dialogue in a way that's most impactful if we intentionally took it out of the way. And so there's tactics like that in the book. And I'll be honest, it's hard to write. Because I want people to understand the value. But also, I'm talking about trauma and triggers. And so I'm like, I hope this is landing in a way where people can walk away and take the tools that, you know, they think will work for them. Yeah, and have awareness still, that even if you decide I don't want to do any of those approaches, the thing is still gonna happen to you, people are still gonna look at you and see a big tall, six foot bike man and be afraid just because of their bias, people are still going to make judgments, if you have any kind of visible disability, people are still gonna make assumptions about you if you have anything rainbow flag on your person. You know, it's just unfortunately, the fact of the world we live in.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:48
Yes, I thought that you really handled all of that in your writing beautifully. It didn't feel like you were diminishing the trauma. It didn't at all. But I found it incredibly valuable to have that, just the suggestion of what I might say, I might not say in exactly the same way that you've written in the book. But it was really helpful to have that guidance.
Amber Cabral 37:13
Yeah, thank you for that. It was definitely a section that I was like, I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to say like, let your traumas go, they mean nothing like it's not a big deal. Because they are, they are a big deal. But like, we just kind of have a choice and like the way that we hold on to them being there for us or not. And I want people to know that you have an option that can potentially work really well for you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:35
I'd like to pick up on one thing that you said before, we’re close to wrapping up, which I'm very sad about. But there's something that you say, and it's about boundaries, and how you create those boundaries. And you talk about not picking up the ball when it isn't yours. Okay? And if you wouldn't mind, there's a brilliant story about you talking to a call centre representative in the book. And it really resonated with me, because there's so many times where I've been so frustrated with this person on the other end, like how can you not be hearing me this is what's happened. This is what I'm wanting? Like, could you just very briefly explain because I think a lot of people will hear this story and it will resonate.
Amber Cabral 38:21
I appreciate that that resonated with you so much. It's definitely a story that sits in my gut aswell. So like, really quickly, what happens is I bought a gift card for a friend and she couldn't activate it. And so she tried to call to get it activated. And you know, when she called they told her “Oh, no, you since you're not the sender of the gift, the person who sent it to you has to call.” So I go to call and I explain what has happened. I sent, you know this person a gift to me, it says that they received it. But on their end, they cannot add it to their account, what needs to happen so that we can resolve it. And literally every sentiment that the call centre rep said to me after was none of what I was looking for. It was oh, well, I see that it was sent. And I was like, yes, it was. Well I see that you know, it wasn't used?
And I'm like, great. Sounds like right, which would that. [cross talk] I cannot fix it. I am not going to let you off the hook for fixing it. I called with the intention to get this problem resolved. And so every single time they met me with a sentiment that was not a solution I made it really clear. Hey, I appreciate you sharing that with me, that's not a solution. Would you like me to repeat the problem again, I'm happy to walk you through what I'm calling about. And finally we eventually got it together. But I was unwilling and this is not a thing that I think enough folks do and I think there's even data about women taking on like labour that's not theirs to, so there's a ton of just information about this being an ongoing thing. If it's not yours, don't do it, it is not yours, because the problem picking it up and taking it is now it becomes yours. And now you're accountable for it, and people will continue to have the expectation that you're going to do it, even if it's theirs. So if I'm trying to teach people how to treat me, I can't tell you, I don't enjoy taking on extra labour for you. I think a lot of us are action-oriented people, we want what we want, and we want it done well. And so sometimes our instinct is, you know what, it's not gonna take me that long to do it, I'll just do it. Our folks do this badly when it comes to delegating, we'll do things like, well, I know how, yes, we hired someone that's supposed to do that. But I have to explain it and I just haven't had the chance. So I'll just take care of it. Well, now it's your job. Yes. Now it’s your job now you're frustrated that you're burned out. Now you're frustrated that you are not having the amount of time that you anticipated you would get from hiring this person. But it's because you're still picking up the balls. And so this is an ongoing lesson. It's an ongoing lesson for me personally. And so one of the ways that it showed up recently for me is I come home from a trip, my boyfriend was at my house, I go to unlock the door, he had accidentally put the deadbolt on, he unlocks the door and he's like, wrapped in a towel, and I'm thinking he's in the shower, but I realise I don't hear a shower. And then I can smell that he's like using the bath stuff. And he's taking a bath. And my immediate reaction was utter fury. How dare you have time to take a bath? Well I didn't say it to him. But in that moment, I was so frustrated, like, I don't have time for a bath do you know how badly I would like to just luxuriate in the tub, you know. And I was in the midst of just a really wild busy season where I was not exercising my boundaries, I was trying to do too many things. I was saying yes to all this stuff. And so I walk in, and he's doing what he should be doing, which is, oh, I need a break, I'm going to take a bath. And my instinct was how dare you have time to take a bath, you should be as tied up as I am. I didn't say anything. I caught it in the moment. And I realised, well, that's not the right behaviour. And I walked away. And I said, I've got to figure out how to make time for myself. Because I'm better when my cup is full. I'm better when I'm not picking up all the extra stuff.
So what am I picking up and carrying that's not letting me decide that I get to take a bath. So much so that I'm mad that someone else that has taken a bath. It's really imperative like there's all of this stuff connects the giving the feedback is what gets people to ownership of their own stuff, the understanding your own boundaries gets you to get really clear about what you should and should not pick up. The willingness to push back on folks when they're not doing something, you know, that's equitable, or giving access to people. The ability to query when someone's behaviour is putting someone else in an oppressive space, all of that gets you to the place where your cup is full. All of that gets you to the place where you can show up and say, Hey, I'd like to make sure that you're hearing me even though I am happened to live in this container, it puts people in the accountability seat, it puts you in the accountability seat. So now we can come to conversations with everyone holding the part that they should hold, including the representative who I had to talk to several times to get the gift card activated, you're gonna hold the part you need to hold, I'm gonna hold the part I need to hold. And then we can get to a solution. And so like in my mind, the world I want to live in feels like that. It doesn't feel like that you're never going to say something that's potentially offensive, or you're never ever going to make an assumption that's her for you're never ever going to do something that's really just like offensive or discriminatory or whatever, that's going to happen because identity evolves, we're going to do it. But it's a world where people have the skill to say, I really, really tore that up, I apologise for... moving forward, I'm going to do this instead, right? Where people have failed to be able to show up and say I'm a little concerned about sharing this because I'm the only woman at the table right now. Are you willing to still hear me? Like if we can just get the skills to navigate it. That to me is far more impactful than us pretending it doesn't matter to us that we have all these differences, because it does. And those differences matter to us as individuals and we want to be recognised for them as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:08
I love that and I can visually see these three things, important things to consider that all make up us being full. That makes complete sense. Just my very final question, which I've been asking all my guests this season. And that's because I have written a book, as you know, which is called Beyond Discomfort, and is out in March next year and I’m just curious, what is if you were to think of the most uncomfortable or even one of the most uncomfortable things you've had to manage in yourself to date in order to be an inclusive leader?
Amber Cabral 44:43
Oh, that's a good question.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:45
How did you navigate that discomfort?
Amber Cabral 44:47
Colorism, colorism is an ongoing challenging conversation for me and it's one that I lean into and I'm well informed about and I can bravely discuss but it is definitely still one that gives me that putting my nose in my navel, am I saying this right thing because I know, I know, no matter how much I read and how much I try and how hard I try to understand, I am looking out of the eyeballs of a light skinned Black woman. And I know that I can't control what people see when they look at me and decide that they're going to open a door for me because I'm a light skinned Black woman instead of someone who is browner than I am, or a dark skinned Black woman. And so I try to balance, the access and the privilege that I get because I am a light skinned Black woman, because I cannot turn that off. And so I urge people in you know this in my books to please lean into your privileges, they give you a chance to show up as an ally, like take advantage of all of them, and I do. But I simultaneously also understand the implications of what not having that access looks like. And even though I can't fix all of that, I also have a bit of responsibility to be a part of the solution. And I am always always trying to make sure that I am navigating that conversation responsibly both owning that I know that my experience is different. Also owning that I have a responsibility because my experience is different. And also owning that there's a lot that I don't quite get, because I'm not that. And so that's always uncomfortable.
Nadia Nagamootoo 46:20
It’s such a brilliant example of of discomfort, but the complexity of that discomfort. I hear what the most really is your desire to be an ally and to, but to also recognise that you can't know exactly what other people have been experiencing. Thank you so much, Amber Cabral, for sharing so much with me. I could genuinely talk to you and about your book for days. I feel like yeah, if we weren't across the water, we'd grab coffee and just kind of chew the fat is that a British saying chew the fat?
Amber Cabral 47: 01
I think we say chew the fat over here too!
Nadia Nagamootoo 47:05
So for those who are interested who might want to get hold of you or follow you, you're active on socials, right?
Amber Cabral 47:11
If you want professional me, LinkedIn is the best option. If you want a little bit of just who I am as a person as a whole Instagram is gonna give you that you know, so if you don't mind swear words, go follow me on Instagram. But I'm most active on both of those. My name on Instagram is Bam Cabral My nickname is Bam. So that's what you'll find on Instagram and on LinkedIn. It's Amber Cabral.
Nadia Nagamootoo 47:30
The link to everything that Amber and I have spoken about today is going to be available on the usual show notes page of the Avenir consulting services.com website under podcasts. Amber, thank you, thank you one hundred million times for your time today for everything that you've shared, and for writing your incredible books. Thank you very much.
Amber Cabral 47:53
Thank you for that. I appreciate it. This was actually a really great conversation. So I'm glad that we did it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 47:58
Me too. That concludes episode 39 of Why Care. So much of what Amber spoke about resonated with my personal challenges as a petite South Asian woman who finds it awkward and hugely uncomfortable to push back. There is so much for organisational leaders to take away here in how to create a positive feedback culture and ensure accountability is in the right place. Please do let Amber Cabral and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Insta and X with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo. If you're a fan of Why Care, then you will probably have picked up by now that I have written a book. It's called Beyond Discomfort, Why Inclusive Leadership Is So Hard And What You Can Do About It, and it's out in March 2024. You can preorder your copy on Amazon. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mario at Kenji productions for editing this podcast. And Jenny Lynton for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
