Why Care?#31: Jennifer Brown - How to be an Inclusive Leader
“I want to challenge the comfortable in all of us and in myself. I want to invite us to walk that path together because the comfortable amongst us are needed in the change equation so desperately for change to be sustainable, to be at scale, to be accelerated, to address the real pain and inequities in our society.”
In Episode 31, I am joined by Jennifer Brown, Founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting (JBC), to discuss the challenges of being an inclusive leader, how to overcome these challenges, and what inclusive leadership means.
Jennifer’s DEI journey has spanned for over 15 years in public speaking, entrepreneurship, consulting, thought leadership, and writing. She is an acclaimed keynoter and podcaster, with her podcast The Will to Change, which has 15,000 listeners per month. She has received several recognitions, having been named Woman of the Year, Social Entrepreneur of the year, one of the Top 40 Outstanding Women and so much more. Her sincere commitment and determination to DEI has led to her numerous successes as a best-selling author of two books, and a shortlist winner of the O.W.L. Award, and winner of the 2019 Nautilus Book Awards' Business & Leadership category. These achievements draw back to her mission in creating inclusive organisations where all of us can thrive, and, encouraging leadership and allyship at all levels with concrete behaviours and actions.
Jennifer offers insight into her DEI journey, and her shift from focusing on DEI representation, to ensuring that diverse individuals are respected, understood, hired, and retained in their respective organisations. She shares her personal story, and delves into the importance of this, as an authority figure and as an LGBTQ woman advocating for her community. As she explains, there is an ease in hiding, and seeking what is comfortable but what we actually need is to challenge what is comfortable. Setting that tone and creating psychological safety will normalise open conversations about things that frightens us and are not so often spoken about. These includes question about privileges and invisibility, and the significance in utilising that as a way of fuelling our allyship with others.
She cautions practitioners about the danger of letting their biases inform who they welcome in, the obsessive fixation in focusing solely on underrepresented identities and neglecting areas such as mental health, which in fact, affects the most people. As she mentions, what matters is for everyone to be duly respected and supported in the workplace and, when we get to this, we will be able to get more people involved in the DEI agenda. Later in our conversation, she mentions that for people to embrace a certain type of leadership, a leader should present themselves as a role model, be empathetic, vulnerable, disciplined, humble, curious, and open. The key here is to get leaders to move past their ego and to tap into that destabilisation of being in the wrong or uncomfortable, and with that, they will have more chances succeeding and growing as a leader.
Lastly, she speaks about the inclusive leadership continuum, which features in her book – How to be an Inclusive Leader. She describes that leaders tend to get stuck at each transition stage:
1) Phase 1 and 2, that is between ‘I don’t know what I don’t know’ and ‘now I know what I don’t know’. This is complex as they have to overcome resistance, apathy, cynicism and skepticism..
2) Phase 2 and 3, from the ‘I know what I don’t know’ to ‘deepening my knowledge’.They will have to experiment and fail a lot to learn, which is quite overwhelming, and shame and guilt inducing for leaders.
3) Phase 3 and 4, here the issue is being stuck in the perfectionism trap between aware and active ‘not knowing’ and ‘not having mastering of how things will turn out’. Leaders will find that they are more vulnerable, they will hold themselves accountable and train themselves to notice bias around them and speak up.
In Phase 4, leaders are advocates and that can be difficult to achieve. As such, leaders require support, patience, flexibility, resilience, forgiveness and graciousness. It's not about having a short-term focus on calling people out and cancelling them when they make mistakes, but about having a long-term view on nurturing the journey of others. This holds more power than pushing people out from contributing to the DEI conversation because of their privileges.
Links:
Jennifer can be found on:
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For more from Jennifer Brown Consulting, you can visit their website at:
https://jenniferbrownconsulting.com/
For additional links on her books and podcast, this is located on her Link Tree above.
Transcript
Jennifer Brown 00:00
The comfortable amongst us is needed in the change equation. So desperately for change, to be sustainable, at scale, to be accelerated to address the very real pain and inequities in our society. Those of us who sit in a certain place in the system must activate, we must utilize what we have. And then the neat thing about this is it doesn't need to be threatened. And this is not a loss. This is not scarcity. This is not, oh, my goodness, I'm going to give up something so somebody else can have something. It is not that, you know, looking at the abundance, we all have abundance number one, but some of us have certain kinds of abundance that we've taken for granted, that we enjoy the benefits of every day but it's very accessible to us. Sharing that abundance does not mean less for us. It sort of magnifies, it accelerates, it multiplies, I think.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 00:56
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated.
With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we've become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and a huge welcome to season four of why care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. As the season kickoff show goes this has to be one of the finest yet.
I am delighted to welcome one of the most influential thought leaders in the DEI field, Jennifer Brown. When I first met Jennifer, we hit it off instantly. And a half-hour conversation led to her agreeing to join me on why care and for me to do a takeover of her podcast show The Will To Change. If you didn't catch it, I had an incredibly powerful conversation with Dr. Pippa Grange and Errol Amerasekera on The Will To Change episode 260. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, speaker, diversity, and inclusion consultant, and author. She is the founder and chief executive of Jennifer Brown Consulting, where they design workplace strategies and educational programming that have been implemented by some of the biggest companies and nonprofits in the US and around the world.
Jennifer is three times author, including the best-selling book, How To Be An Inclusive Leader; Your Role In Creating Cultures Of Belonging Where Everyone Can Thrive, which was named one of Catalysts, five must-read books on workplace diversity, equity, and inclusion in 2021. The second edition was released in October 2022 and goes deeper into the complex topics of identity, privilege, and equity. In our conversation, we talk about the discomfort that inclusive leadership triggers in people and how to overcome the fear associated with scarcity. For those who feel DEI will mean they lose out. Jennifer talks about building community and welcoming everyone into the conversation. And what DEI practitioners need to do differently in order to help create that. We talk about the different stages of the inclusive leadership journey as set out in her book, and where people tend to feel really challenged and uncomfortable. There is so much to learn from this one conversation alone. Hello Jennifer, it is such a pleasure to welcome you to Why Care. Thank you so much for joining me.
Jennifer Brown 04:26
Thank you. I'm so excited to be in dialogue with you and to learn together.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 04:31
I like it. So anyone who's anyone in the diversity and inclusion world will know you because personally, I think you're famous for 20 years of Jennifer Brown Consulting and doing an incredible job in this field. So for me, it's an absolute pleasure to spend this time with you and learn from you. So thank you. And now obviously I know a lot about you but just in case there are any people listening out there who might not know you or your background, or might not know how you came into the DEI work that you do, how you came to set up Jennifer Brown Consulting, it'd be great if you could just give us an overview.
Jennifer Brown 05:09
Well, in my 20s, I was heavily into non-profits, and I really wanted to make a difference. I gravitated toward anything that would have an impact. I did community justice and organizing and advocacy for communities in the Boston area. And I felt very fulfilled with that work but at the same time, I was always singing. So every night I would be out, at some rehearsal or other, I was in the Boston Symphony chorus, actually, and I travelled all over the world with them, it was so incredible. And having grown up in a musical family, and always having this interest and curiosity about what would the career be like for me in that field, I ended up moving to New York City to pursue it full time.
And I got a master's in operatic vocal performance from the Manhattan School of Music, and again, I really felt like I was right in the sweet spot, you know, having dreams of making my living as a performer. And unfortunately, through the course of operatic training, I ended up injuring my voice. I'm not sure why to this day, it happened to me, well, I kind of know now, but over time, it felt really, really heartbreaking. And to remedy the injury that I had from overtraining; I think I had to get surgery. And that happened several times and with several surgeries to repair my voice, and recovering from that entails that you are silent for a period of weeks, so that things can heal. But you know, what comes out when you finally make a sound is something that is unrecognizable of course, then you need a lot of speech therapy to bring it back.
And I wish I did but ultimately, I would realise that performing eight shows a week, for example, or singing, you know, aria after aria was not going to be in the cards for me, from a stamina perspective, and I would need to seek another purpose in life. So while that was a really hard time in my life, I still get really emotional about what could have been, I actually reinvented, and subsequently, I followed some advice, many performers find their way to the world of training, and learning, and development because many of us were very empathetic. We like connecting with people, we like performing in a way but in the sense of teaching and facilitating dialogue. So I followed the advice I got from some mentors and ended up getting a second degree in organizational change and leadership. And feeling again, like I had discovered something that would play a very important role in my life. And indeed, it would, I would pivot into that field, and I would have some roles in HR as a training development leader.
And then subsequently started Jennifer Brown Consulting almost 20 years ago at this point, and began to build my team and our client work, starting with team development and effectiveness. It was a leadership but pivoting into DEI because I'm also a member of the LGBTQ-plus community but I was closeted in the workplace and always struggled with coming out and being fully authentic and aligned. And I felt very passionate as an advocate on that topic on a personal level, to create and be a part of creating a workplace that was kinder and more welcoming for people in that community. And these were very early days, I didn't realise I could do DEI as a living, I didn't know even what it was. But these worlds would kind of come together with my MD background and leadership background and my personal advocacy for LGBTQ plus inclusion in the workplace, things kind of came together. I realized this thing called and at the time, it was really diversity, barely inclusion, and certainly not equity or belonging but I realized I think I want to do this thing. And I want to, you know, direct Jennifer Brown Consulting in that way.
And so I would build it, as I said, build the team, build our expertise, begin to work with really incredible clients and feel that all of these pieces of who I am, were sort of coming together in this magical powerful way, and very fulfilling way indeed because it's so personal to me that I tackle and I'm helpful in solving these problems. This is because they plagued me, and I was very aware and still am very aware that they plague so many people that are underrepresented in the workplace that doesn't have a seat at the table. So I would build the company. And I'd like to say at this point, in hindsight, I have the clarity to say that I was meant to use my voice just not as a singer. And it's an incredible time to be in this work. I feel this sort of the culmination of a lot of the pieces of who I am and what I care about and what I'm dedicated to. And I really want this to be my legacy, to leave the workplace and employers better than the place that I experienced as a younger person, you know, a place where we can all thrive a place where we can feel seen, heard, and valued for all of who we are.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 10:08
I love that story. I love how it started from a career in singing, or a hope of this being a career in singing and you had to kind of stray off that path and find a new purpose. And my goodness, what an incredible purpose and something that's so personal to you. And actually, it brings me to one of the first questions that I had for you because I've got both editions of your book, I have to say, the first was brilliant. And then the second, I feel just has more of you in it which is equally as brilliant as it offers the reader more and more examples. And you know, I love it for that but I was interested in that new chapter that's in your second edition. And I can hear you sharing your story, I can hear your voice when I read it. And it's lovely, actually, it's very comforting and the path that you've taken to becoming an inclusive leader. So what changed for you over the last four years from edition one to edition two that made you feel like actually, this is a chapter that I really want to write and share?
Jennifer Brown 11:09
Thank you for saying that about my voice. Speaking of voice, weaving that into business books is not something a lot of authors do but it's so important to share my diversity story, it's one of our teachings and I need to practice that. And so sometimes when I'm writing, I'm writing as a teacher, but not as me. So I love what you just said, which is that I need to be in there, I needed to go back and actually weave it in. And because sometimes we can hide, sometimes it's easier to not kind of explore and lay our own work bear and say, right about a concept and then say this is when it really came to life for me, or here's how this landed for me, or here's how I talk about it. Or here's how I weave my own story into my teachings because this work in particular as you know, is so personality-driven and lived experience-driven, and so much a part of my credibility. And my authority means that I need to unpack my journey, I think, that enables people to trust me, you know, I think you cannot teach this to us from the head, but we have to teach it from the heart.
And we have to not just talk about other people but we have to talk about ourselves. And I have to talk about myself as a learner, so my learning over the last couple of years has been to become bold and more courageous in naming all of the identities I carry. I'm still a work in progress and I want to put that out there importantly because I think it allows people to relax around me and say, well, she's doing that I can do that, too. That's what I hope anyway, setting that tone, and creating psychological safety to as I unpack, others will unpack with me, and alongside me. And we'll maybe go to some places that have scared us in the past, a place that scares us that you were talking about is the question of privileges, the question of the tailwinds that have invisibly and silently sped us along that we don't take those for granted but we actually really look at them, talk about them, and utilize that as a way of fueling our allyship and utilize it as the way to normalize speaking on something that's not spoken.
And it's not only not spoken but it strikes terror into the hearts of many people and many leaders. And I know this because it has done that to me. And so, as I write, you know writing a book is a way of healing, it's a way of clarifying what you're most here to communicate, and what's most important in what you want to teach and what you want to be in service of. And that has evolved. I'd love this saying like comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. And I think in my early days, I never liked the sort of in-your-face activist but I absolutely wanted to afflict the comfortable. And to me in my early days, afflict the comfortable men, maybe, you know, I'm just broad strokes here as a cisgender female, it was male-identified individuals, it was maybe heterosexual straight people who are not allies, right? It's my sort of early self-activist but I am now recognizing that I am in the comfortable category. At the same time as I am in the afflicted category, I'm in all of those things. It's this beautiful realization that I want to challenge the comfortable in all of us, in myself.
And I want to invite us to walk that path together because the comfortable amongst us is needed in the change equation so desperately for change, to be sustainable at scale, to be accelerated, to address the very real pain and inequities in our society. Those of us who sit in a certain place in the system must activate, we must utilize what we have. And then the neat thing about this is it doesn't need to be threatening, this is not a loss and this is not scarcity. This is not, oh, my goodness, I’m giving up something so somebody else can have something, it is not that. You know, looking at the abundance, we all have abundance, number one, but some of us have certain kinds of abundance, that we've taken for granted, that we enjoy the benefits of every day but it's very accessible to us. Sharing that abundance does not mean less for us, it sort of magnifies, it accelerates, it multiplies, I think, and it actually is what it's there for.
I think I have been born in the composition that I'm in because there's so much I can do with what I have, that actually enables me to grow and transform, and also when shared with others, it enables the transformation of other things, other people and other systems. So, you know, this is not scarcity but it's so hard. You understand this, Nadia, to explain this, when you're coming up against so much fear that's been generated by the way that, we've spoken about this, the way that we've gone about the work. And I take accountability for that. Like, I think that somehow it has been communicated, we as a field, somehow we've sort of perhaps over-rotated to talking about the affliction, talking about the afflicted, we're in the afflicted, right, just to continue that. And that can be so intoxicating, so energizing and so kind of in our feelings, and it's such a sense of belonging, I don't blame any of us at all, for seeking community, for finding our voice together, and for making noise together.
Like I've been doing that my whole life but you have to kind of sit here in 2023 and say, where are we? Let's take stock, let's back up, let's say, okay, who is feeling alienated? Who's feeling sort of left out? Who's feeling unclear about what they can do? Who is feeling unworthy of the work? Who's wondering what space they fill in this work? I don't want anyone to be wondering that, we can’t get where we need to go if anybody's wondering that. So every day these days, I wake up and think, how can I form that, because I found my place but I've only found that because I've been in this for so long. And for my people like who's the audience that really needs to see me and hear me and who I can reach in a really unique way, I've sort of come to this place of well, I could serve everyone but where I really am needed is here. And I think I rewrote the book with that in mind. And with the maturity that I've gained over the last couple of years and the humble journey I’ve gone of wow, I have been blessed with so much, I feel called to make that clearer for other people and to invite them to join me.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 17:56
You’ve covered so much in that, my head spinning a little bit. What I love about that is this kind of belief that many people working in the space of DEI, any professionals, are sort of coming at it with, you know, we must fight the good fight, we've been done wrongly and really just feeling that aggrieved sense of injustice, which clearly exists. And historically, we can't deny that injustice has taken place in all aspects of minority groups around the world but to know that just because you might experience that in one aspect, one part of your identity, there are other aspects of you that other people might have a grievance about due to history because that's what I loved about this particular chapter. And what you've just said is that if we hone in on the one or multiple aspects of ourselves that feel aggrieved, and feel like we need to fight for justice, and, ignore the parts where we benefit and where we have some privilege, then that serves no one.
Jennifer Brown 19:05
And I just want to say there’s that invisibility. There are so many more diversity dimensions than race and gender. I always say this when I'm keynoting over the last couple of years, the reason this has really hit home is we pull our audiences and they say, I list 10 different diversity dimensions that we typically think of, race, gender identity, social economic background, religion, spirituality, mental health, parenting, and caregiving. I put this list up, polled people, and literally the thing that is the most experienced, just by the numbers is mental health challenges. So, every time you ask that, we've been having very important but sort of limited focus and discussion, and identified certain needs but there are so many other needs going on. And as a consultant, of course, I think, what would that structure look like to support all of that? I mean, immediately, as you go there, I say, so we've supported identity-based groups, for example, and communities in the workplace who are underrepresented. And we understand the sort of scope of that problem, that we know we can put our hands around.
Now to solve that is not as easy and I wish we were further along, of course, but there's so much work to do to make the tent bigger and to really address the issues that have been coming up over the last couple of years. This is because I actually don't think in my keynotes, three years ago, I would have been getting that same result. So, the landscape has shifted and we do need to update our approach. And we do need to walk and chew gum at the same time in terms of continuing to focus on some of those evergreen pain points that traditional DEI strategies have addressed, we cannot at all take our eye off that ball. And we need to expand so that we address what's really going on for folks but also in doing so you're going to welcome so many new people into this conversation. I think that's going to do wonders, rather than saying, well, that's their issue, that's not my issue. They're going to do the work, I'm not, this doesn't have to do with me.
I don't agree, right? Because then we get this whole, like, sort of arm's length thing that's going on. So I'm always trying to use the data and my own sort of intuition to say, no, no, no, no, you're part of you are included in this. And maybe you've never verbalized that, maybe you haven't ever understood that, for example, you don't even know what neurodiversity is, but you are neurodiverse. Like, you've never thought of that part of your life or how you grew up has anything to do with this whole field, but it does, it very much does. And could we, you know, be expansive, enough to be inclusive? If we can't do it, I'm not sure anyone else can do it. It's up to us. Like we do this work, we call ourselves practitioners but really, how are we letting our biases inform who we welcome in? How do we choose to call someone out instead of calling someone in, believing that perhaps there's an aha moment that will shift the trajectory that someone's on in terms of their own ally journey? Like, we have to believe that that's possible for people and we have to continue to kind of hold ourselves accountable, not to dismiss, you know, the other. I don't know if we've taken our own medicine adequately.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 22:30
I think that's a fair shot. I honestly think that as a DEI practitioner, it's very easy to go for the more tangible areas of diversity and inclusion, those characteristics that you read out and work with that because it's not easy, but it's easier to work with that.
Jennifer Brown 22:49
Especially if you're like, not very experienced. I think there are so many new folks coming into the field. So maybe when I flashed you, and you said that, so I'm just hanging out my goal, right? What is the known? What is the map that we have? It is those well-marked paths but at the same time, it's up to us, though, to go on the lesser-known paths, or to literally bushwhack. So, I would encourage folks who are new in the work, to think about what's not charted yet, like, think about what you can locate and begin to explain and make it clear, right? Because you're right, there are a lot of well-trod areas in this work. I mean, I'm frustrated because I'm still looking at the same data and not seeing a lot of change. So, I also think we need new thinking, we need new explorers, we need new people who are unafraid to you know, go into the thicket. And we have a lot of paths to put on the map in this work.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 23:56
I agree. I'm interested in your book, How to Be an inclusive leader? you talk about this new type of leadership that's needed, you're moving away from what we know traditionally is seen and rewarded for in organizations in terms of leadership qualities. So, you know, demonstrating strength, composure, charisma, and confidence. And you talk about any role model beautifully as well in the book, but you talk about vulnerability, how he talks about demonstrating empathy, being purpose-driven, and being socially responsible. And I'm curious, in the leaders that you facilitate those conversations with, when you're trying to get them to shift out of this quite fixed way and belief system about what leadership is, what is it that you do to facilitate that openness to embracing different types of leadership that are needed for inclusion?
Jennifer Brown 24:51
It's really hard. I met with audiences that are all at different places in that journey. And it's also complex because every senior leader's audience is full of individuals who are in different places, so, you know this, right? When you facilitate a group, you're sort of like, ooh, do I shoot for the middle? Do I work with, you know, early adopters? Do I ignore the resistors? Like, yeah, there are so many choices, and how to approach it? This is a creativity in the art and science of this work. The art to me is sensing where a group is, and where the individuals are in that group, that could be in very different places, and how do you kind of serve each of those folks? Because each leader influences hundreds or thousands depending on the size of the organization. So. it's sort of a conundrum, change management, and both facilitation and design. I think we're all designers. I mean, we walk in and usually have two hours with a group of people, you know, how do you design that time? But your question was sort of what do you use in those moments, and I sometimes don't really know how I do things.
When you sort of feel like you're channeling something and, you know, you're working from intuition, that's not always conscious choices, or you have a plan, and you throw out the plan. It happens sometimes, to me too and I tried to generate empathy. First of all, I try to be vulnerable myself, I try to role model my own journey, and I try to humanize the parts of me like we've been talking about, right? So, I try to really credentialise myself also, and I don't mean my bio, I mean as the learner, and as the identities that I carry, so nobody ever guesses I'm LGBTQ. So, I think there's a moment there of bias that I can point out, and a bit of an a-ha moment right at the beginning. So it sort of puts a learner in an unstable place. The instability, I think, is where the learning happens, right? That's the growth mindset. That's the oh, goodness, like, okay, I better pay attention, I'm on the edge here, I'm on my learning edge because I already made an assumption about who Jennifer is.
So, I think this is why telling our diversity stories, however scary that may be, and what's invisible about us in particular, if we can, in addition to what's visible, is such a powerful tool. That's why I really invest a lot in that and think a lot about it but then, you know, some people love the business case, some people need to see the facts and figures, and some people like to kind of paint this picture of the changes in the future workforce. And saying and reminding leaders that the privilege of leading is that others will follow. We're only leading in a certain context and we're considered leaders in a certain context, and if our context is changing, we are behind because we're not actually really in tune with that context. The context is changing in our world, and the wants, needs, demands, and expectations of incoming and early-in-career folks, who we are there to lead technically.
If we're missing the boat on that because of fear, because we're not resonating, because we're not doing our work, and because we're making assumptions that we know how to lead. And we’ve been leading the same way for 20 years and I think a lot of leaders are very destabilized. So if I can name that and say, I think I know how you feel right now, let's have a conversation about how ‘What Got You Here Won't Get You There’, to quote Marshall Goldsmith. Yeah, let's acknowledge that if anyone is being challenged right now with who you are, it's this generation of leaders, I think that learning curve is steep, steep, steep.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 28:40
It’s tough sometimes, right? I’m in that group. When I'm in a room, and I see the struggle, you can visibly see that struggle sometimes in these leaders that you're working with that they hear you, but they're not processing what you're telling them because there's almost like a barrier that's preventing them. This is because they have such a deep belief system about how they lead which is constantly being reinforced in all of their leadership life, that they are an amazing leader, they've been told they're inclusive, they've had loads of 360 feedback that's told them amazing things about how brilliant they are and they've got all of this proof, this evidence that they are amazing at what they do.
So, sort of like they look at me like I hear you Nadia but what you're telling me, it doesn't work, it doesn’t tally up with the leader that I know I am and obviously some of the messages almost feel like conflicting messages. So, what I'm saying is, in order to create a sense of belonging, you need to see people's differences, you need to acknowledge and see them for who they are and have this open conversation with them to understand that their experience is different to yours. You need to be open to change and curious to embrace that understanding, and then do something about it. There’s this sort of perplexed look on their face when they're sort of thinking, okay, so what you're telling me is, I need to treat people differently and I need to see that they're different, and that will help them feel like they're not different. And I’m like yeah. Did you ever feel like you're wrapped around the axle of the conversations and sort of like, wait a second, what am I actually saying? And does it make sense?
Jennifer Brown 30:22
I think we can hone in on where they are in pain. Maybe it's just hard to really access that because the ego is so strong. I love referring back to how the companies in Good to Great, remember that book? Yes, and any book that's been written in the last couple of decades about a fabulous company. It's like, what's happened in all those companies? Like, right, I think this sort of relevance, the longevity of a leader, you have to kind of know that if you're not uncomfortable on a regular basis, you're probably not leading, you're not growing and you're probably missing that the ground is shifting under you and the very comfort that I suppose you have. You can't rest on your laurels, you have to question it, okay, good leaders might get all that feedback you just mentioned but they're probably asking themselves that can't be all there is because nobody tells the leader the truth and they know that so much more smoke is being blown.
They know, like people have a vested interest in like praising them and the truth is really hard to get at. And this is why I think as leaders, if you're worth your salt, you step outside of your vertical, you put yourself in places where you don't know the language, you are not one of many, you're the only, you're conspicuous, you may not feel welcome or welcomed, you're doing your own work because you're intrinsically motivated to look beyond all of those incentives you just mentioned. And if we can, I think, tap into that, destabilization, both personal but also sort of in our environment, like what we don't know and what's around the corner that we're not seeing. How can I sort of invest in that muscle more regularly? So that I'm not actually believing all the positive things I'm hearing because I know it's rigged. And also by the way, if you're a person of great privilege, it's also rigged. I mean you're actually not going to know how you are really experienced as a leader unless you really push beyond the boundaries of how you are measured.
Now, you are not going to know until you go for example to the Black affinity group and say, hey, I want to start attending, I want to listen, I want to learn and I want to be mentored. You are going to have your mind and heart blown. You need to go into the LGBTQ group, spend time with the people, you need to spend your time with people that don't share your lived experience and I promise you will not think everything is okay. But the question is, I think to your point, it’s like, how do we measure people, what gets measured gets done, yes, how can we frog march people to this? The thing is what I really wake up feeling and wanting so much is for this to sort of bubble up organically in people, like I want people to want to do this work. I call my podcast ‘The Will To Change’. How can we spring that seedling that is growing in leaders at all ages that we can encourage the questioning of the self, that humility in them?
You asked about inclusive leadership competencies, it's questioning what you believe, it's humility, it’s openness, it’s curiosity, and it’s low ego, right? It's being in service of growth and it's talking about what you've learned that bothers you, that disturbs you, that makes you angry, that makes you regretful, that you should know, and that you wished you'd done differently. Imagine if leaders communicated from that place, here's how I grew up in privilege, here's how I was protected, here is how I was safe, and here are the resources that were made available to me. And in my life, I’ve never really seen those for the assets that they are at. Here's what I'm doing with them now because I understand that that's capital, just like professional capital and financial capital. That's capital, and capital is the fuel of inclusion. Capital is the fuel of allyship, to share what we have, back to the beginning of our conversation, that doesn't mean less. That's the beautiful thing about it, capitalism tells us there's a finite amount, that's what it tells us but you and I know there are all kinds of other realities going on beyond that like there's so much beauty in generosity.
For example, in our world, we know, competitors are generous with each other. I see the rising tide lifting all the boats, we compare notes, we support each other, we share resources, we show up and we're, I think, living in a different, I don't know if it's a version of capitalism, but it's the most humane part of this system that is extremely harmful. However, it's the only system we are in and it is the only system we know, many of us. So this is to me, a real bright light in the world, like our world. I just wish I could communicate the transformation that's available to all of us, you know, to step into thinking about things differently and to see ourselves differently. And then we got to have an organisational system to reward that, and not to be at cross purposes with that. I think to your point, as leaders, everything I've ever heard and measured on is here, and now I'm looking at this over here, it's like no, this will be integrated. So that's our work, right? And we need to help companies build that, it's hard.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 36:14
Essentially, rewriting some of the fundamental processes, systems, and ways of measuring success in the organization and rethinking it completely. And often, organizations and those senior leaders who are the decision makers on this, they can't visualize it, they can't see how impactful rewriting those processes in the reward systems is, how that could lead to a better organization and a more inclusive organization. And I think that's definitely one of the barriers that we face in this profession.
Jennifer Brown 36:46
The challenge here is, as you said visualization. I mean, I just don't know if we've done a good enough job of painting that picture of what's possible and including everyone and inspiring everyone, honestly around that. I mean, I know who's inspired, which is those of us who've been missing, right? I get that and we need to see ourselves in that, we absolutely need to. But how might we expand that and make it more expansive so that everyone can see what's in it for them, you know, to expand this whole effort, dialogue, and community? And so, I hope everyone that's listening to this, how would you answer that question? Like, how would you describe that to help people visualize what is possible for them? And when I say that, I mean, all of us, everyone, we need to crystalize that and then we need to scaffold around it, build it, and then build the bridge to get there, where it’s a crossing that's not terrifying, that's not hazardous, and that's not perceived to be so risky. I say perceived because I don't think it's risky but I think there's a perception that it is.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 37:52
Absolutely. Well, it's the unknown. What we're talking about here is something that you and I don't even have a handle on in terms of what that looks like, until it's been done and until organizations can feel it, as well as see it, and see the tangible outputs, the real kind of like, okay, I see the benefit now and I see what's happening as a result of this. So there's a lot of work to do in this space from an organizational perspective to support leaders and for all leaders to feel like they are part of this conversation. I'd like to talk about the foundation really in terms of your book, which is the inclusive leader continuum. Okay, so we talk about four phases, unaware, aware, active, and advocate, and you have a chapter on each of these. And just for those who haven't yet read your book, I do highly recommend this Jennifer’s book to anyone who is listening but for those who haven’t, can you just briefly just explain those four phases? And just give some light as to where you think is the particular point in these phases where leaders tend to get most stuck or where you see leaders finding it more challenging.
Jennifer Brown 39:08
They get stuck at each transition but lucky me I get to mainly work with leaders who get stuck between aware and active. I think there's somewhere in aware phase two, which is the Okay, now I know what I don't know versus unaware, which is I don't know what I don't know. And certainly, the awakening is tough from unaware to aware, of course, right? That's what we've been mainly talking about, right? This is because overcoming resistance, apathy, skepticism, cynicism, exclusion, all that stuff, and crossing then from okay, now I know what I don't know, which is where phase two and I'm sort of deepening my knowledge and I'm trying to learn, there's this difficulty and that is overwhelming. It can be shame-inducing, and guilt-inducing, a lot of reflection is needed and it is overwhelming, but then the crossing to action is tricky, especially in these times which don't tolerate the way we learn, the way we need to experiment and fail forward in order to learn. I don't think, as much as we had a big game about growth mindset, we do not apply that to our own inclusive leader journey.
So, when we move from, okay, I've learned these things and aware of phase two and now I'm going to move to active phase three, I'm going to begin to speak to different brands and begin to open new conversations. I'm going to begin to talk about what I don't know and I'm going to begin to maybe be vulnerable in terms of my own storytelling around my identities. I'm going to start to hold myself accountable and train myself to notice biases around me and not just notice what's going on but actually speak it, follow it up, and address it, right that’s active phase three. So people get stuck in the perfectionism trap between aware and active, they get stuck in the not knowing and not having mastery, if you will, of knowing how something's going to turn out because like you just said, there's so much we don't even know. We can't really see the other side of the shore over that bridge, it's the future and we can kind of imagine, visualize and hope for it. So, I think that we as humans, like to know where we are gonna land, we like to know and predict what will happen but we are so cynical about what’s going to happen.
I remember coming out, I always think about this, I think when we come out as members of the LGBTQ-plus community, we're terrified but often it goes better than we think. And so to me, that tells me something about human behavior, I mean, it's true for me, that it almost always went better. So what does that tell me about humans? I am a glass-half-full person, I thought it was going to go horribly. So, I just think we're very cynical, we don't give ourselves enough credit, we don't give others enough credit, we don't believe that things may turn out differently and better, and something may be discovered that we can't even imagine. I just don't know if we're very good at that. Also, we’re a bit lazy when it comes to discipline, and discipline of inclusive leadership is doing a little every day, right? It’s eating better, it's exercising, it's saving for the future. It's you know, it's all those things that maybe aren't fun but that develop our ability to lift more weight over time, with less soreness, right? Where we gain strength, we are more comfortable, we have mastery of how to say and what to say, and what's the impact that it's going to have.
We have multiple examples under our belt that we've learned from and that haven't been perfect but that has enriched us in terms of our own self-knowledge and have also contributed to our skill. And so that fourth phase then is to be skilled, brave, courageous, and extremely sensitive to how to use our voice when to use our voice, what we can do, and where we can influence. And so the advocate phase four is the fearless, the resilient, and the exact. To me, I think that is what we've calibrated. Who am I in a system? Where am I an insider? Where am I an outsider? What can I leverage? What can I push on? What can I do that's going to make others uncomfortable so that they will grow? Like how can I role model what getting comfortable and uncomfortable looks like? And then how can I create more space to move people up the continuum? So that is really advocate, phase four.
So where do people get stuck? I think it is between the aware and active phase and I know exactly why. I think we need to invest in that, hold a lot of space and be super gracious with ourselves and others as we learn and create enough kind of resiliency, flexibility, acceptance, forgiveness, and all that stuff that we need, like that graciousness with each other so that we can grow. We all need to return to the fact that somebody has been gracious with us, as we've learned, which means that we can turn around and reciprocate with that. And I don't think a single human has ever known all the things perfectly. So whenever we get on our high horse and say, why didn't you know that? How could you do that? That harmed others, that's inexcusable, you're cancelled or you don't know, you need to sit down and not contribute because you are too privileged. That is destructive, while it may feel wonderful in the moment, it may feel satisfying, it may feel like I'm in control and now I have power, it is a short-term win, you might win a battle but not the war. It's like yeah, let's have a long-term view on nurturing the journey of others because as they travel that journey, they can help, be a part of and contribute in a way where we need them to contribute.
I only look at it that way. I don't see bad people, we've all said something, we've uttered microaggressions, we've all been there but what we do about that can come from a place of kindness. Sometimes people are irredeemable but that is rare, I think that is extremely rare. And particularly in the workplace, I don't think we need to be making judgments, that people are bad people. I just don’t think there’s a place for that, I think we have to focus on where are our learners, let's meet them where they're at, let's meet ourselves where we're at, and let's look at ourselves as learners. And I think that energy is so much more collaborative, it's so much more, hey, we're sort of peers in different places but we're all kind of attempting to cross this bridge together and help each other get across it, and valuing each way that we do see the future. This is because if we ignore that, we tune it out, or we judge it, we will squander the opportunity that exists in each of us to contribute to change.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 46:10
Yeah, you've covered so much there. And as you were talking, I was thinking of this analogy of like riding a bicycle where, you know, my littlest, she's only two and she didn't really know that a bike existed, she was completely unaware that bicycles existed, that they were a thing. And then of course, we gave her a bicycle for Christmas, a little balance bike, and then she's really unsteady on it, she's kind of standing and walking on this bicycle, thinking that she's riding it. Oh, you know, it's really awkward. And there's this sort of gradual awareness as she sort of learns to then kind of start doing it, that moment where she actually lifts her feet off and starts pedaling, you know, is going to be a real moment for her, where she suddenly starts being active in her practising, right?
It is that practice that you're talking about, but yet, no matter how many times she might do that same run-up and down the garden, as soon as we take it to the park, it's a completely different environment, it's a completely different context, so she has to practice that again, and she might fall off, she might go the wrong way, and so on. And then, as she gets older, I'm sure she might try different terrains, mountains, and goodness know what on her bike. And, you know, I sort of feel like as you were talking about that cycle of unaware, aware, active, and advocate, it was similar to that. She might be the best cyclist in the world one day, and yet, she still might get a sore bum because she's ridden it over bumpy terrain and it will still be really uncomfortable.
Jennifer Brown 47:44
You may be a road racer but you're not a mountain biker. So, you've got competency on one side but you don't on the other. And that's always going to be true, even for an Olympic-level person. So like, there's always more, I love the analogy, we could like a riff on that all day. It's like the bike, it's like your skill, the bike is the equipment and the equipment is I think the ingredients of the self, right? It's the bike we're riding, so I'm riding the bike of me and the bike of me has these identities, these abilities, and this awareness, the Johari Window, right? It's not known to self but known to others, right? There's always the curtain that can be pulled aside, right? There is always something more to be revealed about who we are but the bike is the equipment, and then our ability to ride it is the skill and the competency.
And those two things when they're married together perfectly, they create an incredible athlete, incredible athletes in one arena. Like I'm a classically trained musician, I can't play jazz and it kills me, I love it but I can't, I don't have the competency. So, I'm aware I wouldn't say I'm active around that but I'm in deep appreciation, and I might dabble in whatever lessons but I'm going to feel like a beginner again, and that's hard for somebody who's so highly trained in another way. I love that analogy of leaders. They’ve developed a competency with a certain set of circumstances and if you're a good leader, you know those circumstances are changing. I mean, I don't know, maybe it's not really human to say you know what, I need to build a new plane. While I'm flying the old one, I need to be building a new one and I need to really understand that equipment, and I don't know what that looks like.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 49:33
Absolutely. Jennifer, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for all the work that you do in this space. Thank you for your book. Thank you for all you've given in the book and for this time with me. I really appreciate it.
Jennifer Brown 49:50
I appreciate you. I loved this. Thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 49:52
And now people can follow you on social media. Where's the best place for them to touch base with you, to follow you?
Jennifer Brown 49:58
Yes, I hear I'm everywhere. So not hard to find but look us up on LinkedIn and absolutely connect with me on Jennifer Brown Consulting, that is the name of my company. So Jennifer Brown Consulting, I have an incredible team we do this work every day together, thank goodness. And then Jennifer Brown Speaks is my speaker and author website, so you can find out more specific info on that.
And then on Instagram, I'm @Jennifer Brown Speaks, on Twitter I'm @Jennifer Brown. What did I forget? Facebook, Jennifer Brown Consulting, and ping us if you have any questions on info Jennifer Brown Consulting, we'd love to hear from you.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 50:33
Amazing. Thank you so much, Jennifer.
Jennifer Brown 50:37
Thank you, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 50:38
That concludes episode 31 of Why Care. I love the concept of afflicting the comfortable, which is so aligned with what I'm discussing in my book Beyond Discomfort. As inclusive leaders, we need to be ready to role model vulnerability and sit with discomfort in the knowledge that that is what being a leader means. Do let Jennifer and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Glory Olubori for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
