Why Care?#34: Chris Altizer and Gloria Johnson-Cusack -Growing the Elephant
“And so, what we try to lift up in this book is ways for people to shift their mindsets from having that fixed mindset of thinking this is the way it is, it's the way it's always going to be, people won't grow, people won't change, it’s how it’s been for centuries, to maybe there's a way for us to ask these tough questions. For them to believe with optimism and competence and historical fact that people can learn and grow with the right tools. And then with that mindset, go further and say, if we have better managed diverse workforces and teams, we will have more optimal outcomes and make the business case, because it's hard to argue that.”
In Episode 34, I am joined by two guests: Chris Altizer, a leader and partner of Altizer Performance Partners, and, Gloria Johnson-Cusack, founder and owner of Gloria Johnson-Cusack Consulting.
We discuss their book, Growing the Elephant, and how they shift the linguistic focus from ‘privilege’ to ‘earned and unearned advantage’. They offer a really helpful way to break down dimensions of power and provide tips on how we can create an advantage for all.
Chris and Gloria’s career journey has spanned over three decades. Chris has experience in global human resources as a Senior Vice President of Human Resources and the head of Leadership roles at Pfizer and Aetna. He is an executive and team coach, a facilitator, a speaker, a registered Yoga Teacher, a thrice-published author, and a qualified Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction teacher. Gloria has been an executive in global philanthropy, national non-profits, higher education, U.S. Congress, and the White House. Gloria is a speaker, author, lecturer, and consultant providing strategic counsel to leadership teams and boards globally regarding governance, change leadership, DEI, and strategic planning. She serves as Board Chair of the Firelight Foundation supporting communities in Africa and is a Board member of Patients for Affordable Drugs NOW.
Chris and Gloria share their intentions behind writing Growing the Elephant. They wanted to strengthen the competencies and mindsets of the people who are advocating for change and the people in power, who can help effectuate change at scale. Gloria’s perspective came from her passion for creating systems change and policy change, whereas Chris's perspective was focused on the role of the individual. The main idea of the elephant in the room is opening up a conversation about the things we don't want to talk about, especially if you have unearned advantages. Chris speaks on the divide in opinions between those who think the push for DEI is not as assertive as it should be and those who think that it is too much. As he explains, systems change when people change, and people change one at a time. He speaks on the importance of shifting mindsets and how vital this is on the journey to being an ally and advocate. Through his personal reflections, he was able to recognise that his own lack of awareness could diminish and disparage other people. Gloria concludes this point, by stating, that we need people to shift from a fixed mindset (things won’t change) to a growth advantage mindset (asking tough questions and believing that people can learn with the right tools).
As they both explain, it is ironic that there is a belief that those with unearned advantages shouldn’t be resourced because they have been provided with resources all their lives. What we need to do is to empower everyone for change to occur. Chris shares that the idea of being comfortable with the truth, such as the advantages we are penalised or rewarded for, is not the same as accepting it, and acceptance is in fact what we need for growth to occur. It is an unchanging fact that some of us have advantages more than others. People need to embrace both the discomfort and comfort that comes with having an unearned advantage.
Gloria breaks down the three dimensions of power in the form of an upside-down pyramid - at the bottom layer is achieving representation, the middle part is efficacy and transformation, and the highest dimension is increasing the diversity of perspectives. The highest dimension of DEI involves a sharing of power in three ways:
1. Our message - how are we articulating our intention?
2. People - are we aligning people and creating accountability?
3. Money - are we aligning financial resources to support those people to have change?
They explain, the focus shouldn’t be on privilege, but on the unearned and earned advantages we have, and how we can create advantages for all by:
- Letting people be their own teachers - Rather than giving out lectures and data, people can learn more from actively educating themselves about DEI.
- Giving people better questions – They are not accustomed to being tested, so give them an opportunity to contemplate these questions.
- Allowing people to make mistakes – We are not perfect, and the goal here is not perfection but growth, and this occurs when people learn from mistakes.
Links:
Gloria can be found on:
Chris is available on LinkedIn and you can find out more about him on here.
For more from them, you can visit their website at: https://www.gloriajcusack.com/ and www.apppwi.com
Transcript
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 00:00
The elephant in the room is an unearned advantage. The elephant in the room is the thing that we don't want to talk about which is that some of us have advantages because of who we are and where we come from. Chris likes to say, ‘It means you're not starting on first base; you're starting on third’. So, all of us, no matter what culture or nation can accept and acknowledge the principle that everyone can earn an advantage. You can work hard, you get rewarded. You form relationships, you get opportunities. Well, yes, everyone can earn advantages, but some of us have to work harder because of who we are, and where we come from. And it's because of that unconscious bias, really, the thing that you and Chris have been talking about already, the way that we're naturally wired to feel safer and to feel more comfortable with people like us. That is the unchanging fact for most of us, just like it is an unchanging fact that some of us have had some advantages more than others. And so, our effort is to name that advantage and unearned advantage and then to try to help people work with that idea, the discomfort that you've just mentioned. And then thirdly, the thing that excites us the most is to find each other, so that we can grow more advantage for all.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:41
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, a Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated.
With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 34 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. So, I have two for one when it comes to brilliant minds in this conversation, speaking to Gloria Johnson-Cusack and Chris Altizer. Gloria is a speaker, lecturer at Columbia University, and a consultant providing strategic counsel to leadership teams and boards globally, regarding governance, change leadership and diversity, equity, and inclusion. She also served as a lobbyist for the charitable sector, was a board chair of National United Cerebral Palsy, and was a special assistant to the president in the White House Office of National Service.
Chris has over 30 years in global human resources, and currently coaches and consults in leadership and team performance with executives and boards. He's also a registered yoga teacher and a practising fifth-degree black belt martial artist. You can see how their diverse backgrounds and perspectives of the world have come together beautifully to write their book, Growing the Elephant, Increasing Earned Advantage for All. In this episode, we discuss the often-unhelpful use of the word, privilege in DEI work, and why Gloria and Chris have reframed this language to earned and unearned advantage. We talk about what is needed for systemic change when it comes to inclusion and belonging, and how contemplative practices can support the discomfort experienced by people with unearned advantages. We also unpack the value of a growth advantage mindset. This is such a rich and powerful conversation. I hope you get as much out of it as I did. Enjoy.
I am absolutely thrilled that you, Chris, and Gloria are joining me for Why Care. This is an incredible honour. We both have the same publisher, and so I actually knew about your book before it hit the public domain, because I was told about it by the wonderful Allison Jones. And I was very much waiting. I then put it on my Amazon Wishlist until I could get hold of a copy. And then I was delighted to see you on Jennifer Brown's Will to Change, and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your book. And so, I'd love to welcome you. Thank you very much for joining me, Chris, and Gloria.
Chris Altizer 05:26
It's our pleasure.
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 05:27
Thank you. It’s an honour.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:31
So initially, just to give everyone a sense of your background, but individually, and how you both came to write this book, Growing the Elephant, Increasing Earned Advantage for All.
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 05:45
So, my background is as a leader and follower, literally in every sector, business, policy, advocacy, higher education, and the non-profit sector. And it was in higher education while I was working at Florida International University, which is the fourth largest public university in the United States, serving more Hispanics than any university in the United States, that I had the pleasure of meeting, Chris. We were both working on the policy committee to try to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion at that university. And it was a very quick friendship and mutual admiration for society that emanated from that.
Chris had already conceptualised the book. I was coming at this subject from, I would say, a decidedly systems perspective, especially as a person who was a lobbyist for foundations and non-profits. My perspective has been about creating systems change, policy change, and Chris's perspective for this book was let's look at the role of the individual. And it was a magical opportunity to dig deep into how we can strengthen the competencies and the mindsets of the people who are advocating for change, and, the people in power who can help effectuate change at scale.
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:18
Wow. And I love that story of how two perspectives came together. And you thought actually, this is gold, let's write a book. Wonderful. Chris, tell me a little bit more about your background.
Chris Altizer 07:29
I am a retired and recovering HR executive. So, that’s my opening cabinet and a long career in large companies and senior roles. And when I retired from that, I moved down to South Florida and began teaching at Florida International University as an adjunct in the School of Business. I had done some writing on diversity and inclusion in the context of mindfulness, which I'm a latecomer to that whole world. I’m a martial artist for 25 years but really getting into mindfulness as a discipline has been over the last 7 years.
And my ability to pay attention to what was happening in the world expanded by reducing my career scope. Like so many people who have all the unearned advantages that I do, I really began to associate, well, how am I fitting into all this activity in the world, and paying attention to injustice and inequity? And what do I think about it? And that caused me to say, Well, what do I have to say about it? And that began the essence of the book. And then I was fortunate early on to meet Gloria and have this partner with very different lived experiences from my own, and yet shared values, which I think for me personally, is common sense. And most folks would say, ‘Oh, yeah, you can be different, but if you share values, you can get things done’. That's easy to say, and then it's another to really discover it. That's what I've discovered working with Gloria.
So, this idea of the elephant in the room, the one we don't want to talk about, especially if you look like me, because we don't, if you have unearned advantages or privileges as it's typically called, unproductively, I might add. Okay, we can get into that. I believe Gloria and I have this shared vision that there's a way to talk about this, that is actually inclusive, that actually reaches people. As opposed to the systemic, institutional historical perspective, which is all very valid and very real and very powerful, I believe the system change when people change, and people change one at a time. So, this approach, which quite candidly, some folks have received this as ‘you're not nearly aggressive enough’, other folks have received this as ‘you're pushing me too hard’. So, I think we're in the right space.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:51
Okay. Yeah, what I loved particularly about your book is that you did hold the reader really gently through some really complex topics, and actually, even just the reframing of privilege and splitting it up. Because often the pushback I get is, ‘I can't help some of these things that I have, I'm now made to feel guilty for being born into the house I was born into, being born into the skin I'm in’. And that's not where we're going with privilege. And yet the word itself is so weighted in the nuances of social class and difference, and it just has some negative connotations for people. So, I'd love for you to unpack that definition. Because, Chris, you've already mentioned your own unearned advantages. So, what do you mean by that? And what's the distinction between unearned and earned advantage? And I'm happy for either of you to answer that.
Chris Altizer 10:54
So, one can tell when looking at me on a screen, that I am Caucasian, I am male, and I seem to have a full range of physical ability. A few good things that we could see, I was Christian-raised, I am heterosexual, I grew up with clean water and public schools, and I'm extroverted. Nadia, so, my joke is, if I was 3 inches taller, I'd have it all. Because here's the thing, no matter how we want to deal with it, basic psychology tells us that each of these components brings advantages to any social and business social interaction. And these are rooted in really fundamental human traits of survival. I like to be around people who are like me because it's safer that way. Ironically, of course, we know that's not really true but that's how we're wired. It took me a long time, Robert, whom you've met in the book who is Chris in a lot of ways, gets to discover that over time, which is, as you said, I was born this way and don't hate me because I have these things. And yet, Robert has to come to terms with having them which he does not like, Chris does not like that at all.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:16
So, was that a journey for you then when going through that realisation of your own unearned advantage? How uncomfortable was that? What did you have to process?
Chris Altizer 12:29
It comes in moments, comfort and discomfort. So, the idea of being the advocate and the ally, ‘oh, Chris is the advocate and the ally’. And I was in positions where that mattered, to advocate for others, to be an ally for others, and to speak up. And I feel pretty good about that, I pat myself on the back, like hey, it’s Chris, and then not recognising those critical moments, when my own lack of awareness would diminish and disparage other people, not by intent. And this is where people that look like me really get challenged by this. They say, ‘Well I didn’t mean to.’ Well, of course, you didn't. Now there are those who do, let's be clear. There are plenty of people in the world who would like to see subjugation and the rest of that but most of the aggressions that we see in this world are the micro kind and they're unintentional. It doesn’t mean they're not damaging, and it doesn't mean they do less damage. So, for me, it was the recognition that really began in 2005, in that story, in the book, to this very day. Because today, I'll read something in the news and go, ‘Well, you know those people.’ Oh, wait a minute. Oh, yeah, there I go. There I go talking about those people being hypersensitive, those people being this, and I catch myself. So, we're never done.
Nadia Nagamootoo 13:40
Yeah, I agree. To Gloria, I'm still interested in then what's earned advantage?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 13:47
Yes. So, the elephant in the room is an unearned advantage. The elephant in the room is the thing that we don't want to talk about, which is that some of us have advantages, because of who we are, and where we come from. Chris likes to say, ‘It means you're not starting on first base; you're starting on the third’. So, all of us, no matter what culture or nation can accept and acknowledge the principle that everyone can earn an advantage.
You can work hard, you get rewarded. You form relationships, you get opportunities. Well, yes, everyone can earn advantages, but some of us have to work harder because of who we are, and where we come from. And it's because of that unconscious bias, really, the thing that you and Chris have been talking about already, the way that we're naturally wired to feel safer and to feel more comfortable with people like us. That is the unchanging fact for most of us, just like it is an unchanging fact that some of us have had some advantages more than others. And so, our effort is to name advantage and unearned advantage and then to try to help people work with that idea, the discomfort that you've just mentioned. And then thirdly, the thing that excites us the most is to find each other, so that we can grow more advantage for all.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:30
And we're going to definitely come to that, growing the advantage for all. Can I just go back to what you said, we can all earn an advantage but we're starting at different positions, so it's easier for some people to earn an advantage than it is for others. And in your book, there is a really helpful visual that looks at the relationship between unearned and earned advantages. So essentially, the more unearned advantage you have, the more likely it is that you're going to achieve that earned advantage. And for me, that visual nailed it in terms of busting the myth of meritocracy and seeing that distinction between the haves and have-nots, the inequity in the system. So, how do we help leaders sit with the discomfort that brings, that acknowledgment that I have all this unearned advantage, and that potentially now it means that I might not have fully earned, as I see it, the position, or my successes in life?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 16:35
So, I'm happy to jump in and say that what you're talking about is being able to recognise that it's our thing. And what we try to encourage readers to do is to use the different tools, suggestions, and approaches to set their intentions differently, once they have done the personal work, the reflective part is just understanding the experiences of other individuals and their lived experiences. So, for me, I didn't need to have that lovely graphic that's in the book, to appreciate the concept of unearned advantage, and how it leads to more earned advantage. I show up as a woman of colour, part African American, part indigenous Native American, it's the Haliwa-Saponi tribe. I grew up with completely different lived experiences from those that are described by Chris, literally, by virtue of how I woke up, and the world that I came into. And so, it's not a new notion to me, that it's not the same for everyone, that it's not a given that if you work hard, you get rewarded.
My mom, who is Native American, grew up in a very poor, rural segregated United States in 1936. She certainly worked hard 15 hours a day in tobacco fields and was never able to be a part of the cash economy, because it was literally illegal for her to be able to take some of the actions that most people would when they were being exploited by greedy white farmers. And if her dad spoke up, there was fear of her finding him hanging from a tree, lynched. And that was commonplace. So, no illusions about what unearned advantage is or the issue of forming relationships. Well, the schools that she went to, one-room shacks in 1946, were taught by teachers who themselves had not graduated from high school, using books with pages torn out, that were literally thrown in the trash by white students up the road. So, what kinds of relationships could she have created, where she will be given more opportunities when the people there who were given the authority to lead and help guide them were not resourced themselves?
So it is that lived experience that then causes me to come into this conversation, certainly from a different place than Chris or Robert does. And yet we find each other because of these shared values that we have, because my life experience has also been, that with the assets of that community and that family. We were able to move to a different place. And so that's one of the values that motivates I think, both of us, that we want to use the advantages that we've been able to earn. Chris wants to use the advantages that were unearned to try to bring more people along and help them see themselves no matter where they are, to meet them where they are, not to shame or blame, but say, we think there's a better way. And to do this by not using that privileged word, which just takes up a whole bunch of oxygen out of the room and causes us to waste a whole lot of time bringing people back to the conversation. We think this new framing allows us to just get faster to the, what now?
Chris Altizer 20:10
Just to add to that bit, Nadia, you took the essence from the book, our belief is that people are their own better teachers. So, the DEI space has been full of lectures and data, and stories that should compel belief and action that haven't, we wonder why the needle hasn't moved. The driving force behind this is that we have to allow folks to be their own better teachers. And the way to do that is to give them better questions. Rather than better arguments and better case studies, and more reasons, we have to have better questions, and then the opportunity and the space to contemplate those, and then the grace candidly for people to make mistakes. Because that’s one of the things that we see in the media now is that if you make the smallest mistake in the space, you're put on leave, in the most recent example, right?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 21:07
Literally put on leave from your job, where you've been trying to be inclusive and create inclusive opportunities. That's the headline here in the United States yesterday.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:18
Yes, it’s constantly here as well, and it does put people off. And of course, it enhances the discomfort. Because of what I hear from you, Gloria, and thank you so much for sharing such a personal story of your heritage, and your family background, which I found incredibly powerful, and it resonated as well with my own family background coming from Mauritius. But it's so obvious to certain groups of people that the distinction between unearned advantage and how it can clearly relate to where you get to in life and your earned advantage. And there are some groups of people who it's masked, they just don't see it, because they've never experienced it. And so, what I heard from you then, Chris was, there is a way of managing and supporting people as they enter this thought and space around unearned versus earned advantage to hold them and allow them to experiment in the sense of trying something, get it wrong, for it to be okay, as long as they’re in the mindset of learning and trying, is that right?
Chris Altizer 22:22
It is. And the great irony, Nadia, is that people with unearned advantages need to be resourced. Oh, wow. You're kidding, right? Yes. For all of those and including myself, who have not accustomed to being tested, or asked hard questions, we need to give them a path, and there's a reaction to that. It's like, well, the last thing I need to do is resource people that look like Chris.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:50
Because they've had loads of resources in the past, let’s face it.
Chris Altizer 22:53
And candidly, and I've gotten this feedback from old friends, people said, ‘Chris, if anyone would have said that Chris Altizer was going to co-author a DEI book, eyes would have rolled.’ And it’s not that I was some kind of raging racist or anything like that, but it’s just that my own background doesn't lend itself to being aware, to recognising. And it wasn't really until the practice my own mindfulness practice in training and meditation that helped work with it. So that's how I've grown to this point. Dudley in our book is a high school-educated white guy supervisor who's like, ‘You know what? I'm not buying any of this stuff.’ And I can't look at Dudley and go, ‘Shame on you’. We have to meet Dudley where he is if we hope for him to take a step beyond where he is. Because the idea as Gloria says, is the blame and shame game, not only has it not worked, but it's also resulting in laws that are being passed here in the United States around what you can and can't talk about in school and at work. And that's alarming, but it's also an opportunity.
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 24:05
And I think we would add that we also have to meet Robert, the white guy who is in power, who also has not spent the time asking the tough questions. If we want to achieve change, systemic change at a scale that is transformative, we've got to meet that person there too. So, one of the centering questions, Chris said, we try to get people to ask better questions and let them be their own best teachers and give them tools to work through those issues, both privately and if they choose, in a group is to ask, ‘Might my lived experiences be different for others unlike me?’
Because so many of us who mean to be good people, who are not rascals with nefarious intentions as some people are, enter this conversation, problem-solving, innovation challenges around inclusive environments, work environments, communities, and all, from the vantage point of, ‘well, I'm a good person and I believe in the golden rule. And so, I'm trying to make that true for everyone else’, without doing a little bit more of the reflection about, ‘well, might those lived experiences you have to be different for others, and therefore some of the assumptions that you make, and then some of the solutions that you come up with be off center?’
So, there are all kinds of opportunities that we try to offer in this book to help people do the reflective work. And I really want to emphasise this, you're a psychologist, and you've worked in improving human capital, performance, and innovation for more than 20 years. I know, I'm preaching to the converted, this is more to the people listening, the work that the 3 of us are doing is meant to allow people to have the room to do their personal work in a really straightforward and simplistic way. And then they can decide how they want to show up, whatever seats they sit in.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:06
Yeah. I'm interested then just connecting what you've just said to the practice of mindfulness. And Chris has brought in mindfulness already, but because you've mentioned mindfulness practice throughout your whole book, offering exercises, and you keep continuously going back to it at the end of each section. How does mindfulness practice support your reader?
Chris Altizer 26:28
I'm going to offer refinement and substitute the word contemplative for mindfulness here. Because in the contemplative practices world, there are all kinds of dimensions of mindfulness, one of those, which is your present moment awareness without judgment. And then the practices, so you're right, there's an underpinning of that, where for each of the exercises, we encourage people to take a seat, to take a breath. The very first thing Robert has to do is take a breath because we know the physiological or psychological benefit of that as a practice, that's probably more from my yoga teaching experience than mindfulness.
But the contemplative approach, including present moment awareness, is an underpinning to the different exercises, because what I think is really true, is folks will recognise and then they will retreat, or they will recognise, and they will reject. So, when it comes to recognising unearned advantage, it's overwhelming, what are the examples in the world of disparity and injustice? And so, the reactions to very complicated issues become tweets and bumper stickers. And that's because we don't want to be present with what's uncomfortable. So, the underpinning of mindfulness in this broader array of contemplative approaches is, how can folks be comfortable with what is true.
And I think what I hope you found from the book is valuable in this partnership with Gloria is that this book is not just for people who look like me, which is what the value of the co-authorship and the co-thought leadership of this is, whoever you are, wherever you're from, whether you have a lot of unearned advantage, or very little, there's a contemplative opportunity and perhaps a mindfulness practice that may come along with it to help you be with what's uncomfortable because it is. And that's really the mindfulness piece is that these things are true. You may not like them. You don't like them, because you're being penalised for it, or you're being rewarded for it, but to be present with it, which is really the mindfulness point, being present with what's true in the moment with less reaction, so that you can deal with it. Someone asked me early on, and he said, ‘Oh, this whole mindfulness thing is that you're just going to sit in the face of injustice and do nothing’. No.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:48
No. That's definitely not what I'm saying.
Chris Altizer 28:51
So, the idea of being comfortable with what's real is not the same thing as accepting it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:59
That's brought me very nicely, thank you, Chris, on to the concept in your book around headwinds and tailwinds. Because only just last week, I was facilitating a workshop. And we got to the point where essentially, I'd landed the point around the myth of meritocracy, I'd landed the point around unearned advantage and earned advantage. And I turned to them all, and said, ‘Well, is that fair?’ And they looked at me and said, fairly collectively, ‘Well, no, but it's just the way it is’. And it took me a moment just to think, and these were emerging leaders. I thought, ‘My goodness! So, such a young group of people just happily accepting it. It's not fair, I agree with you, but it's just the way it is. What can we do?’ So, this concept of headwinds and tailwinds was really helpful for me, and maybe you can just explain to the listeners what you mean.
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 29:58
Headwind is that we're going against opposition, the kind of opposition that you've talked about, and the tailwind can push us further in the direction that we want to go. And so, we try to lift up in this book ways of people to shift their mindsets from having that fixed mindset of thinking, ‘this is the way it is. It's the way it's always going to be. People won't grow. People won't change. It's how it’s been for centuries’ to ‘Maybe there's a way for us to ask these tough questions, to believe with optimism and confidence, and historical fact that people can learn and grow with the right tools. And then with that mindset, go further and say, if we have better managed diverse workforces and teams that are doing things, we will have more optimal outcomes.’ Make the business case because it's hard to argue that. And ironically, many of the business leaders globally, are leapfrogging to this realisation, even faster than some of us in civil society or the philanthropic sector, or the non-profit sector, because they have a profit motive. They have demographics, customer bases, and workforces that are causing them to deal with these headwinds and tailwinds that we tried to describe.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:26
So, is it that you mean through that growth advantage mindset that you talk about in the book, that you can create tailwinds, you can create the ability for everyone to advance? And for those people who have had headwinds holding them back, is it that the growth advantage mindset allows the tailwinds to develop?
Chris Altizer 31:47
Great question, a good way to frame it. So, the introduction of a growth mindset is in the working with part. So, we've recognised it, now how are we working with earned and unearned, mostly unearned advantages? A growth mindset, which goes back to Carol Dweck.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:00
Love Carol Dweck’s works.
Chris Altizer 32:04
Yeah, hopefully, everybody listening to this knows that. If you don't, go listen. But the idea here really comes back to Gloria's point about outcomes. What are the outcomes that we're talking about? Because the important thing to recognise with headwinds and tailwinds is, they are forces of nature. So, are we going to get rid of them? Because it really goes back to the whole notion of unearned advantages. I can't change some of these things. The fact that I am a white male with all the rest of that, these are tailwinds that I have. Now here's the thing, and I find this really important to mention for the Dudleys and many other people in the world. And it's the basis of the opposition that we're getting now from DEI is, we’ll say, ‘Well, just because you're a white male doesn't mean you are guaranteed success’. You're right. It does not. And we have to acknowledge that.
And that's the challenge with some of the dialogue in the DEI space today is that we'll talk collectively about whiteness as the problem. That's a very big collective term. And it's not working. It may rally a point of view, but it's not working. So, whenever we're overly descriptive, which is nature, then we'll get the pushback that we get. So, recognising that just because you have a tailwind doesn't mean you will get there faster. But again, you have a greater opportunity to get there faster. And that's I think the importance of intentions that Alvin does in the book, is by intention setting we have to balance the what and the why.
So, in the DEI space today, we have a whole lot of why, we have a whole lot of moral imperative, which of course, I could not agree more. But if we try to make that case to business leaders, to say in your workplace training programme, you're going to change the societal construct of discrimination, it's not going to work. It hasn't worked. And we've been at it for 20 years, and not only does it not work, but it's working against us. So, we can't think of it that way. And I get a lot of flak for this from people who are in the space, they’re like, ‘If you're not talking about the societal historical institutional barriers to oppression, then you are against us.’ Yeah. You know I'm not. I hear where you're coming from and that's part of the baggage that comes with being someone who looks like me who's right in the space at all.
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 34:21
That point that Chris makes does relate to that earlier question you asked, Nadia, about contemplative practices, and Chris' point that it's not just for the white people or whoever's in power, and in some other parts of the world, based on caste, class, and all of the things that we know, who are starting at first base as opposed to third base to use the baseball analogy, who also need to do these contemplative practices to make sure that we are our best selves. There are several characters in the book, including Yvonne, who is a woman person of colour, has some similarities to me, although I can tell you I can relate to all 4 of the characters, who are exhausted because of the life that we have to live of having to manage all of the aspects of being other. But it's also exhausting if you are in the struggle for change, whether it's a follow-on part of our occupations, or what we do in our civic lives, or not. And I'd say often, Chris talks about ways that he gets in trouble, I try to get in as much trouble as I can, by speaking to people who fit my profile, to say, we have to do this personal work too, so that we show up in a way that calls people in instead of calling them out. And to make sure that we do the kind of contemplative work that also creates a space for people to make mistakes as we are learning and trying to have tough conversations. And that is no small matter.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:02
No. Of course, because there are so many years, decades, and centuries, if you go back in time, we're carrying all of that with us. So, we don't just enter the world without any history, there's the family history, you've already spoken about yours, Gloria. So of course, that affects us. It affects how we perceive the world, how we interact with the world, and of course, emotionally, what we hold as well. And so, what I took from what you've just said, which I completely understand, and it resonates with me is that we could be holding anger, we could be holding frustration, we could be holding sadness, and hurt, and a whole host of other emotions around the topic of diversity, equity and inclusion, and our sense of belonging in the world. And actually, that's not always helpful to what we're trying to create. Is that right?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 36:56
That’s exactly right. We get in our own way, and it's not again fair, that extra weight has to be carried, but that's the game we’re in, it’s the world we’re in.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:08
So, what specifically can leaders do to create that earned advantage for all? Because that's something that you mentioned at the very beginning. And I'd really like to get to a sense of, if there are leaders out there listening to this, what can they do? Aside from the work on themselves, aside from sitting with that discomfort, working through some of the things that are coming up for them, listening, and taking account of other people's lived experiences. I get that, but is there anything else that you'd like to see people doing?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 37:37
So, the running joke in my family is that there's one part of me that's like Doctor Spock in Star Trek, super cerebral, analytical, and then there's that part of me that's like, Forrest Gump, in the movie, all soft and tender. So, I feel like I've been Forrest Gump so far, now I'm going to be Doctor Spock, which is to have the conversation about what we propose in this book, we call it dimensions of power. And it's really an analytic framework that leaders can use. We have found it to be extremely useful to specifically call out the different ways that power can be shifted and shared, in order for us to have more diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And the shorthand point of it is actually the inverted pyramid that you see in the book about dimensions of power.
The main point of it is to say that, at the very least, at the bottom of that pyramid, at the tip of the triangle, most of us who are trying to advance DEI, work towards achieving representation. It's like the least thing, it’s like, make sure you have the diversity of bodies, human beings in the room, representation in the team and the organisation, with the stakeholders, whatever. And we're happy to have that diversity, and most of us aren't even doing a great job at that when it comes to how we organise ourselves. And then we talk about a higher dimension where you get more efficacy, more transformation, that's the middle part.
There are only 3 tiers. The middle part of that pyramid, the higher dimension, has to do with increasing the diversity of perspectives. So, you may have a diversity of people, but does that necessarily mean that you have a diversity of perspectives that help us achieve better problem-solving and innovation? There's a choice to be made about that. We like to note that even if there's not a diversity of bodies, we can work hard to have a diversity of perspectives while we're working on bringing in more bodies. We don't have to wait and say, well, we don't have enough diversity of people, with all the different identities to move up that pyramid.
The main point, though, is that the highest dimension of diversity, equity, and inclusion involves a sharing of power in 3 ways. It’s our messaging, articulating our intention for there to be more inclusion, and all those other things, diversity in the perspectives of decision-making. Is our messaging saying that? Because most of us in organisations, especially complex organisations, take our cue about what matters based on what gets articulated. What do we say is important? And people aren't stupid. They notice if you're not mentioning this as an imperative, it's saying something and the silence is conspicuous. And then we think about the second aspect of that high dimension of power, which is people. Are we aligning people and creating accountability, so that people are responsible for coming up with different outcomes, different performance outcomes for the organisation, and different performance measures for individuals? And then of course it's money. Are we aligning financial resources to support those people to change?
So, a lot of the work basically, if we could put this in a hashtag, it's hashtag align money, message and people across the organisation, if you really want to have change. And what that's not, is naming one person, God bless us, with DEI in their title and saying, ‘This is our leader who's going to help lead the change that we want to see in our organisations.’ That's really window-dressing at best. I have all kinds of other words or rascals, we call them, are intentionally creating an environment where there's polarisation. And at best, many of them would be happy for there just to be the window dressing where we've got representation, or we've got one person named, who is going to be doing it, and then they can claim victory and say there's no more time or energy to be resourced to it. So, leaders, we hope are going to be thinking about that and seeing themselves in this framework and saying, if I'm just working on getting a diversity of people, the representation, I'm probably not moving towards real transformation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:22
Yeah. Well, thank you very much for describing that. I found that particular model so valuable to think more broadly than the D in diversity because that's exactly what you're saying. The representation, we're just focusing on diversity, but actually, where's the collaboration across difference, which is that second tier around getting different perspectives in, and then what are the leader’s responsibilities in that top tier that you mentioned? And I'm so pleased that you found a very polite word, I thought rascals. To be honest, I didn’t know what you were going to come out with at one point, but you landed with rascals, and I'm very grateful. So, we're coming toward the end of our conversation so quickly. I have so many more questions for you. But the final one is one that I'm asking all my guests because as you know, I'm writing a book, which is called Beyond Discomfort. And so, I'm intrigued about your own discomfort that you've had to manage in yourself or addressed as an inclusive leader to date. I know, Chris, you've already spoken personally about some of the discomfort that you felt. So, if you have another example, we'd love to hear it. And of course, from you, Gloria as well.
Chris Altizer 43:33
So yeah, so here's another ironic thought. Periodically, I find myself, because when you write a book like this, it takes over your life. And yeah, so know that my friend, it takes over your life. It takes everything you think about, it takes over what people ask you. And I find myself periodically getting tired of it. Because when this book happened, it happened. I didn't say, ‘Oh, I'm going to write a DEI book’. That's not the way this came. That's another story. It's a two-beer conversation, I like to say, about how this thing really sprang forth. But a lot of things got put on hold for it. And then I find myself pining to want to go back to those, and it means getting tired of the space because it's so hard to be in.
And then I remind myself, ‘Let's see, Chris, if it's hard for you to be in this space, what's it like for Gloria to be in this space, and everybody else who doesn't have all the unearned advantages that I have?’ So, I trick myself back into recommitment to the conversation. And it's ironic, because again, why does Chris need to be resourced? He's got all these resources. But I do and I'd say that's the word I give to everybody who looks like me, you will get tired of it. There's DEI exhaustion for all those who are trying to drive the work that don't look like us. And then there's us who are like ‘Yeah, oh my god, can we be done? I want to be done. I'd like to be done now, please.’ No, we’re not. And we have to be present. That's what I would share.
Nadia Nagamootoo 45:05
Thank you so much for sharing that. And it resonates with me as well. I don't think any DEI practitioner is working in this space that doesn't feel that at some point. This is hard, it's really intense, and it can be very emotionally and cognitively draining often. So, yeah, thank you, Chris. Gloria?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 45:22
Well, before I describe the discomfort, the optimist in me, and the pragmatist also has to say, despite all this discussion about how hard it is, to anyone who's listening, it’s worth it. Because the community is growing and deepening. And just like you, Nadia, have been so diligent about creating community among us, those tribes, I like to call them, exist all over the world, and it's joyful. And even though it takes over your life, Nadia, in the writing of your book, it took over ours, it is a growth experience, that is like on steroids, and your life is forever changed. Really, it's just wonderful work to do, nothing will be wasted. And so that's encouragement. The discomfort, I would say, is related to what Chris just mentioned.
And I continue to push through it as recently as last week. The discomfort comes with having to bear witness on a regular basis because I know it's what works. It's uncomfortable to tell my story or to share with specificity the kinds of experiences that I have or the people I love have or people in the disabilities community, where I've worked for many years because I'm an empathic person. And so, when I'm telling the story, I experience a lot of the pain and sadness that we're talking about. And I do it because as Chris said earlier, it works. When I'm in a room, usually speaking truth to power with very influential people, I am not giving them statistics, trends analysis, and quantitative data, they've got it.
And it's a case of wilful ignorance if that open-source information has not compelled them to move. So that's not my audience. What I know, though, is that I have to push with that discomfort because I know that my voice has power, no one can debate me when I share my experience. And I do it in a spirit of love, not condemnation. And so, it's discomfort, and it's worth it. And every time when I'm done, I hold to myself, and I meditate, and I pray, and I thank my higher power for giving me the privilege to offer that. And then I get lifted all over again. And then we keep going. And I think that is what my wish would be for all of us, that we come up with our own formula for dealing with the discomfort. And the hunch that Chris and I have is that a lot of that has to do with contemplation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:13
This is so beautiful, what both of you have shared. Thank you so much for joining me, and for sharing more of the insights that are in your book. It's a fabulous book, if anyone's listening and hasn't got a copy, I highly encourage you to do so. Just for those people who want to get hold of you on socials, where are the best places?
Chris Altizer 48:35
We're both on LinkedIn under our names. Growing The Elephant has its own page. Growing The Elephant is on LinkedIn, and we're on Facebook.
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 48:44
That's the main way you do it. So, growingtheelephant.com, and you can get to the book website that's got all the other links that Chris just mentioned. And Nadia, I don't want us to leave without congratulating you on the amazing endeavour, a 4th season, all that stuff. I mean, it brings us joy just knowing that you're in the world doing what you do. Somebody makes sure you record that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 49:10
Thank you so much. Well, it's been just a delight to have you on the show to speak to you about all the things within your book, everything that we've spoken about is going to be on the show notes page. If you go to Avenirconsultingservices.com, under podcast, you'll find all of that including the full transcript. Thank you both so much. And maybe there'll be a second episode, we still need to cover so much more. So, how about you join me another time?
Gloria Johnson-Cusack 49:41
It would be a delight.
Chris Altizer 49:45
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Nadia Nagamootoo 49:48
That concludes episode 34 of Why Care. I loved the different personal stories that Chris and Gloria offered throughout. For Chris, it was about how he navigated the discomfort of realising his unearned advantages. And for Gloria, it was about how her family heritage meant she had to work that much harder to earn advantage. They perfectly illustrated their analogy of headwinds and tailwinds. Do let Gloria, Chris and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Insta, and Twitter with the handle @Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast, and Glory Olubori for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
