Why care? #1: Brian Ballantyne – Parenting From Work
“If all men and women could let men be more gentle, vulnerable and caring, that would be useful”.
What better way to kick-off my podcast series than talk to the articulate and inspirational Inclusion & Diversity thought leader, Brian Ballantyne. Brian is a Senior Program Manager for Inclusion & Diversity at Amazon, father of two and author of the book, Confessions of a Working Father. In this episode, Brian and I discuss the challenges of working from home and parenting from work or PFW, as Brian calls it – a concept that has come into its own following the Covid-19 lockdown (we didn't know this at the time!). We also discuss the notion of the ‘ideal worker’ and the what commitment means to employers today and how it manifests. Brian explains his strategy for work life balance and coping with the demands of being “Mr. Available”.
Brian gives us his personal and honest view on the consequences of gender stereotypes and the importance of psychological safety and a sense of belonging in an organisation. He also offers an insightful link between the climate crisis and an overheating at an individual level through an increase of psychological pressure and overtiredness as downsides of technology.
Together we explore the importance of a change of culture and Brian gives practical tips on how organisations can achieve a caring and inclusive culture as well as how men can be allies to gender equality.
Brian Ballantyne is father to two children (age 13 and 11), and like most working parents he is figuring out how to integrate work and family life. His career has been working for large multinational companies like Heinz, Vodafone and now Amazon, where he started off in Product Marketing and now is a Senior Program Manager for Inclusion & Diversity within the International Technology team. He is a long-time supporter of women’s advancement, and the inclusion of all people, e.g. LGBTQ+, accessibility, etc. With that aim in mind, he wrote a book “Confessions of a Working Father” to encourage more men to invest into active parenthood.
Please do be sure to check out Brian Ballantyne's book - Confessions of a Working Father. All proceeds go to charity.
Follow Brian on his Linkedin page.
Transcript
Brian Ballantyne 00:00
So, I think what I found is you can engage in the conversation, and some women disagree with this, but I think generally it is harder for women than men but that doesn't mean it's easy for me and that doesn't mean that men don't have their own challenges. And I've got colleagues who are a single dad of four kids, or they're looking after the partner who's very ill, and but will say, well, no, who am I to complain about it, and then you correlate that with male suicide and male mental health issues. And I think now, if men don't feel like they can talk about it or let their guard down, then those statistics aren't going to change. So, I think that men are trying to be more gentle and I'm seeing that more and it'd be great if other men and women could be more gentle with men as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 00:35
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organizational growth and success by inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences, and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode one of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host, have you ever had to covertly manage your caring responsibilities whilst being at work and trying hard to make sure no one around you notices?
How can organisations create a positive culture where people feel able to share their caring responsibilities in an open way without fear of judgement or criticism? These questions and many more will be answered on this podcast today when I speak to today's guest on the show, Brian Ballantyne. He's a senior programme manager for inclusion and diversity within the International Technology team at Amazon, based in Luxembourg. Brian is a long-time supporter of women's advancement and the inclusion of all people. He is the author of the honest and refreshing book called Confessions Of A Working Father, which encourages men to invest more actively into parenthood. We talk about the always available culture, how to combat it and the importance of supportive line managers. We also talk about the different challenges faced by men and women when it comes to fulfilling their caring responsibilities and discuss the negative impact of gender stereotypes. Finally, Brian Ballantyne gives some fantastic tips on what organizations should focus on in the immediate future in order to achieve more equality in caring and to achieve a healthier workplace and society. I really enjoyed my conversation with Brian, and I hope you do too. So, Brian, welcome to the Why Care Podcast.
Brian Ballantyne 03:32
Thanks for inviting me on to your podcast. Nadia, it's really good to speak to you again.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 03:35
Brian, we first met when we met on social media, didn't we? And we spoke and I know this for a fact, we spoke on the 12th of October 2018 for the first time. The reason I know that is because in your book Confessions Of A Working Father, the first entry is on the 13th of October and it says that we spoke the previous day. And it's got your brain working on overdrive. Speak about this a-ha moment for you. And I'd really like you just to tell us, what was that a-ha moment?
Brian Ballantyne 04:05
Yeah, so it was perfect timing when we spoke over a year ago. Now I work in inclusion and diversity at Amazon, and I was a volunteer for a while in my day job, but they were looking for how we can improve the variety of our engineers and our employees and have a more caring environment. And so much focus has been on women's groups, women's events or events for different kinds of groups of people and it just didn't seem to be yielding results from my perspective, and it didn't necessarily feel like the right approach. Now we keep having mentoring for women, and in women circles, and its been about let's give women all this extra work to do to help their career which actually disadvantages them because they've got all these extra events to attend. And around that time as well, in Women in Technology at Amsterdam, there was a room of 2000 women giving a keynote on the importance of women in technology, and all these women were nodding their head and I was like, this is ridiculous. They already know it, like so I guess, I've been thinking now for a long time on how I could actually make an impact in this area, especially in the company I work in, everything is very data driven and we need to be able to prove the impact and I just didn't feel that this idea of focusing on women was the right approach. So, it was amazing when I spoke to you, and you talked about your research where you found that equal groups, the groups where the women progress the most, has got nothing to do with if they get mentored or in women circles or go to conferences. It is to do with whether there are no typical male partner who leans in at home with the children, with house care and with looking after elderly parents. So, I was like, oh, and it totally made sense for me. As soon as you said it, and for the whole next 24 hours, I was thinking about it, and then kind of just put something out on LinkedIn, which then turned into a book and just made a lot of sense. Also, for me, as a man working, as a straight white man working in diversity, I've always been the ally, it's always about encouraging, how can I help others, but with this, I could really authentically, just be myself and a role model. Well, this is what I do and this is what I do to support. My wife is a barrister, and a lawyer and things I've done to support her career. And, obviously, because nothing is a lot better but this is what I've done and maybe other men and other dads can learn from that, too. So, I've been thinking about it for a long time and then we had the conversation, it just totally clicked.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 06:08
I love the book and I think that it really speaks from the heart. I think that so many fathers have that story or similar story, similar anecdotes, and the times where they've had to drop things or parent from work as you call it and check in on their child or whatever they need to do during working hours. I really love and appreciate the honesty in all of your entries. Tell me a little bit more about parenting from work because I love how you’ve made it an acronym, PFW. What is it that we haven't recognized yet in today's world about PFW about parenting from work?
Brian Ballantyne 06:45
Oh, thanks for reminding me of the acronym. I think when companies and people talk about flexibility, they're often thinking about babies and they're thinking about the physical presence needed for small children and it can be very old or very sick relatives as well but, it’s for someone who needs your physical presence, there and then. So, it gets into, are you in the office? Are you out of the office? Are you working from home? And it's this idea that when you're at work, you're working, but when you're not at work, you're not working, which is reflective of how we manage our lives these days, and so much is about working from home. Then it just occurred to me, at one of my children's 13th birthday today, this one is eleven now, and it's just very different, now they're physically able to get to school, get home from school, cook themselves food and they sometimes give themselves paracetamol. And they're generally able to physically look after themselves but it's much more I find psychological that no, this year is going great. However, a year ago, you get a letter from the police, or you get calls from the teacher, your child hasn't come to school today or a child, say you're in a meeting and the child says, oh, I forgot my key can you come and let me in the house, and you're in the middle of a meeting. How do you deal with that? You can't expect to be able to solve the problem there and then even though you're not physically there or you're worried about now with the parents or with your partner, you might have different points of view on something. So, I think it's just, even when you're at work, you're always on call, like if something happens with your children, not just if they're sick but if just there’s an issue going on, it's on your mind. It's different because when you're at home with them, sometimes with a teenager, now the bedroom doors are closed, and you're not always there in every part of their life and there's some things they keep more private. So, my experience is it becomes much more psychological and so, this idea that you're a parent when you're at home, and you're an employee at work is ridiculous. I think when you're at home you could be thinking about work and when you're at work, the things about you thinking about being a parent, and also things you need to respond to if you're with your children, or if you know, an elderly relative, my aunt, for example. So, I think caring from work is another way of thinking about it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 08:38
Yeah, caring from workers is more generic term to anyone who's got any form of caring responsibilities. So, do you think it's more challenging then to parent from work or care from work, than it is to work from home? I see a lot of people and I hear stories of people switching on during their weekends when they're at home in the evenings. Sometimes when they're meant to be fulfilling caring responsibilities, it's easy to pick up the phone because something's beeped, you've got something in your inbox, and we have to respond to it immediately or people feel they have to respond to it immediately. Is it harder to parent from work, than it is to do the opposite, to work when you're at home?
Brian Ballantyne 09:17
It's a very good question because I think we end up doing both sometimes we're at home and working the weekend. I try not to work at the weekend, or the evenings. I think both have their challenges. I think that no, it's a context, isn't it? You're in a mindset which could switch between work and not caring but the people who are around you are in a certain context. If I'm at home, like someone might come to the door when I'm on a conference call or one of my children might show up and my wife has a question. I'm kind of like in a domestic context, so, the people around me expect me to respond and expect me to be in a kind of domestic mindset. And when you're at work and people around you are kind of doing work generally, they expect you to be in a kind of work mindset but the reality is we don't have these different mindsets. Our minds are kind of thinking about everything at the same time and so I find both challenging. Often when I work from home, it would have to be on my own, I can't work from home if there's other people in the house, like my in-laws are there at that moment, and they're great, I just can't work from home in that situation. So, it's more like to be at work when it's other people around you. Even if often you're on a computer, if you're in a meeting, and let’s say I've got to go and let one of my kids in the house, I’ll just kind of sneak out and drive home, let them in the house and drive back to the meeting, and no one really noticed. So, I think it all links to your idea of validation, I think work can be quite addictive and people can throw themselves into work as they can into food and alcohol and other things to kind of take their mind off the real problems they're having in life. And we can feel that sometimes unless we validate ourselves from the inside, that we need the validation of work, or we have this kind of guilt or shame, you can have that both ways, you can have it from your partner and your family as well. If we haven't been internally validated ourselves, we're looking for our work to validate us and we're looking for our peers. So, I think that idea, I better log on is addictive, though. In the evening, I turn my phone off. Once everyone's in the home at 7pm, I turn my phone off until the next morning because it's very easy to just think I will just check that one thing and then you open up something else and it continues…
Nadia Nagamootoo: 11:00
It’s that addiction and somehow as technology has progressed, we've just kind of fallen into this and that need to check our phones. I'm really interested, actually, in what you said in terms of sneaking off because actually, one of the things, certainly in the research that I've done, and many people have done around the concept of an ideal worker being someone who's really fully committed to their organization. And really, it suggests that the organization only wants someone who's committed to them, as opposed to having other commitments and other responsibilities. And so that concept of I need to leave, my son or my daughter that is stuck outside their house and hasn't got a key, I need to leave but I won't say anything, I'll just try and do it under the radar because actually, if people know that I have other commitments, I'm not going to be seen as positively. So, do you think that's still an issue? It's obviously something that you're aware of having done it before you left without people knowing and then coming back without many people noticing? Is it still an issue?
Brian Ballantyne 11:59
Yeah, I think so. Just to kind of leave loud and return louder, it is that saying isn't it from those at the Whitehouse, which is when you do leave, make a big fuss about it. I think that's true and I mostly do say I'm going to get my kids now and kind of role model that but sometimes, you just think, Oh, it's just easy if I just, I've got a room of 20 people, like, I might do that if it's one person, but like, I don't have to explain myself, if I'm just going to go and then come back and people do come in and out of meetings. I mean, I've been exploring this a lot recently, in my head, this idea of the ideal worker and someone who is fully committed to work. And you might say the ideal partner in a relationship is someone who's just 100% committed to that relationship but it's really someone who's scared and it's kind of like, it's out of fear that they're committed because either they're anxious and you need to validate them, or they've got nothing else going on to the life. So I don't know, I think you're right, there is still this idea of the ideal worker, and there's still people who, if you're not at your desk, you're not working. I don't know if people work from home, I don’t know about parenting from work but is that really what we want as an ideal worker? Someone who's just trying to look busy and trying to, they're only at work because they want to be seen to be working? I don't know, if it’s my own company, would I want that kind of person working there?
Nadia Nagamootoo: 13:02
Absolutely. I totally agree with you. It's quite one dimensional as well, isn't it?
Brian Ballantyne 13:07
Yeah. And the company is not fully committed to you, like if it's an extra layer of redundancies, bye. So, it feels naive for someone imbalanced to expect people to fully commit to a company, if it doesn't work the other way around.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 13:18
I completely agree, it is outdated but yet here with everything when it comes to culture, it is so hard to shift. So, I've done a lot to embed a more agile or flexible working culture, doing it seriously and doing it well. It's not just a tick box exercise, actually, they've embedded it, it's a positive improvement in terms of, actually, we're not interested in just you purely being here and working all hours of the day. We are interested in you being happy, being committed to us but also to ensure that you have the balance that you need and fulfilling other commitments too and that's okay with us. As long as you get your work done, it really comes back to that message in your book when you talk about Mr. Available. I love that term. So, you think that there's still a lot of pressure to be available and you seem to overcome it by switching off your phone. Is that what everyone at Amazon does? Would you only do it if it was the done thing in your company or is that just something that you stand for and you say, this is when I'm available and this is when I'm not available and you're going to have to be okay with that.
Brian Ballantyne 14:20
That's mostly what I do. And I don't represent the average Amazon employee or any kind of, you know when I was 12 years at Vodafone as well, and I can't speak on behalf of other people but that's what I've learned, really, you can't really tell people what to do. I think what I've learned is to just figure out what works for you and role model it, and other people will copy if it's valuable for them. I think that my company and probably in most companies now, in our social lifes, we need to have really strong boundaries because technology can always be there beeping and demanding our attention. Yeah, I think you need to decide how you want to balance your life. And for me, it's turning off my phone or it's really prioritising, and I say no to a lot of things, I'm choosing what's important, making sure I have a good balance within my week of things that I'm doing with my wife, with my children, with work and with other things. They might feel let down by it, but you're not letting them down, you're just holding strong to your boundaries and your priorities, and letting go of certain groups you're in. I mean, I turn off all notifications on my phone and on my email, but some people, I see them and they have like 1000 unread emails and they have notifications popping up all the time. And I’m like how do you deal with that? Like you end up just reacting to like a kind of psychology experiment or something. So, I think trying to be proactive, you know, like Stephen Covey says, first things first is over 20 years old now but still put the stones in the jar before the sun is so important, and it's okay to say no to the other stuff.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 15:33
And yet, we find it so hard these days to say no, I just see, like people around me, my peers, and to an extent my husband and I, just sort of running a bit of a rag race, it feels like we're just constantly trying to keep up and trying to say yes to everything, and not necessarily be realistic about what is and isn't possible from a work perspective., Obviously from a social perspective as well, we fill our diaries with commitments. So, when you were selecting Amazon, or the organization that you wanted to work for, how important was it for you? Did you know what sort of culture that you were heading into, that it would support you to live the life that you wanted to live?
Brian Ballantyne 16:13
That's a good question. When I was at Vodafone, that became apparent, and realise how challenging it could be and how important having the right manager and the right company culture is. And I probably developed certain practices that come into my new company, there's definitely things that are supportive, or if I find it doesn't work for me, I will do it how it does work for me. It is important, and I think now and I've got involved in Flex pay, which is a UK flexible working conference. And it's really interesting to see what other companies are doing like Barclays making close to 97% of their roles a default flexible or hearing about in Finland, the ideas of this six-hour working day for a week. I mean, I could probably get all my work done in that time to be honest, and then just be more focused and say no to a lot of meetings. People spend the whole day in meetings and it's like they have to work overtime to do their actual work. So, we're probably a bit more ruthless about prioritization if you only had six hours., it's a big conversation at the moment. And I think there's lots of companies on the low end of the spectrum who are just starting out in this area, or like you say, are way ahead in terms of how they manage their roles and their people. So yeah, it's becoming more and more important to me, and it's something I advise others to consider as well, when they're looking at companies or jobs.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 17:17
Yes, and me. In fact, more and more, I find that people are asking me, so which are the best companies that you would recommend working for or that you've heard have great policies, great practices and are the best place to work for when it comes to either having a family or balancing work with other things outside of work. It definitely seems to be an attraction tool now. People loving to work for companies that appreciate that they're not just one dimensional, essentially. So, tell me a little bit about Amazon then, you've stayed there obviously for a number of years, so there must be something that Amazon offers that supports you in balancing care and work or supports its people. What are some of the best practices that you've learned whilst being at Amazon from an organizational perspective?
Brian Ballantyne 18:03
Yeah, it's good question and I can't talk officially on behalf of my company in case any of our PR teams is listening but just from my own experience, I think one of the great things is you have a lot of autonomy to do things in a way that works for you. So, I'm rarely challenged when I can manage my time when I'm at the office or at home pretty flexibly without anyone really saying anything. The team I work with is international and people in my team are in Japan, China, India, Seattle and Sao Paulo. So, everyone's kind of in different time zones and different locations anyway, which makes things quite flexible. I think it's a very data driven company, like it's quite scientific, you've put documents together with hypotheses and data points, and you kind of prove results. So better than other company, I would say you can measure the results of what you're doing. I think the challenge in some other companies is that people are working but they can't necessarily measure their outputs in terms of results, so they resort to kind of the input metric of how long was I working for? Or how long I was at my desk? I think Amazon is so focused on what were the actual results and that you can prove your results more easily.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 19:05
Yeah. So that’s integral in the management system, in terms of what actually they're measuring to reward and congratulate staff. So, it's not about presenteeism, it's not about sitting and being present, and being at your desk the whole time, it's about how well you've done something and how well you've achieved something.
Brian Ballantyne 19:20
I think they reward management but even like Amazon has quarterly monthly weekly business review meetings where you'll go through all your team's metrics, your revenue metrics and customers impact. So everyone is well aware of where you are against your goals and there's transparency in what people are delivering, and people don't really care, there are areas where you can just go, take off your laptop, sit in a comfy area and work from there. So even if you're not at home, you could be in a comfy area and then when you go to our Seattle offices, there's all these kinds of areas where it's just comfortable to work and a lot of what we do is computer based, so you can just take up your laptop and go and sit anywhere.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 19:53
What are sort of the nuggets that are like, oh my gosh, that's amazing, that company has done that. When it comes to supporting people with carers and the flexible working, have you come across any sort of best practice or just kind of like, wow, that's cool?
Brian Ballantyne 20:08
Hmm, I guess my first thought is things that could be better. So, for example, one of my biological aunts was very sick and my sister, brother and I were her only biological family, there's no one else around. So, we were trying to do everything, I could say my sister was doing probably more than I was, because she wasn't my mother or father, I wasn't able to get the compassionate leave, or like I say, even improving it now, it's hard to explain. And when you're moving someone into a hospice, and you're there, you've got to organize a funeral, you have to kind of phone everyone, it's hard to explain, well, it's your Aunt but surely the people assume that she had children or maybe people assume that your biological mother is still alive or that her parents are there, and they're not like it was down to us. And I guess, when companies are putting together policies, or how they consider caring for people who are elderly or sick, or in that kind of stage of life, then maybe you can be more flexible. I guess I can feel it now, if vulnerable, talking about something that's quite sad. And I think people in that situation, they're much more serious than they perhaps have been, if you're asking for that kind of flexibility already in a very emotional state. So, the more that companies can support people, without having to explain their kind of family tree and why it's important, it's them who's there.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 21:13
You're looking at the person, the individual who's in front of you, and respecting what they're telling you for the sake of their emotional well-being and everything else to allow them that time. It really resonated with me, when my mother in law passed away, I remember I dropped everything, you know, it was very sudden, and I went, I got trained up to lead, I told my boss that I wasn't coming into work. And he was brilliant about, you know, obviously dropping, you know, not coming in, obviously, that day and I stayed up in Leeds for about kind of four days, maybe just to be with my husband, and to make sure that he was okay and obviously the rest of the family. And really, she was the only other person who I called mum in this world, I did call her mum and it affected me hugely. And yet, when I came back and had a conversation with my manager, he was okay about giving me sort of special leave for two days but he wanted me to take annual leave for the remaining two days. I just remember feeling really resentful, because I have worked so hard, I hadn't taken one day off sick, potentially have pulled it and said, go, look, I'm sick or emotionally, I'm not okay to come to work, and that would have been therefore, okay for me to take it off. But the fact that I didn't, and I came in and I said, look, I was very honest, it meant that he wanted to take away my annual leave for it and it really does affect you. I feel it now as I'm talking to you, it's not right that I had that need to take care of my family, say my husband and his family in their time of mourning, and as was I, and that that wasn't supported by my company, so it makes a big difference.
Brian Ballantyne 22:53
I can hear it. And I think it’s not like it's a surprise because we accept that life and death are a part of human experience and these things don't happen all the time. As you say, you're there day in, day out, working for that manager in that company and you expect on the rare occasions when there's a life or a death or something drastic happens that you can just go and deal with that and you've been really upfront and transparent about that as well. So, I can understand how that could feel resentful, to come into work and have given everything. I think that's something I'm learning now is like, don't give, expecting anything back, sometimes in life generally, like no, sometimes people work hard because they expect to get promotion out of it and then the promotion doesn't come in, they feel resentful, or we come in on our sick days because I think the company is going to be there for us. And like I said, why should we be committed to the company, if the company is not committed to us but I think some companies are committed to their employees. And you know I’ve heard stories of Amazon or other companies where someone just had to drop everything and deal with things. And they said, well, you're with us for a certain career and there's parts of your career where you're going to be like full on with work and parts of your career when you know, you maybe got someone to care for or care for yourself. So, I think when you find companies and managers who do care about you in that way, then you stay with them and encourage everyone else to work for them.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 24:02
Absolutely. It's a massive selling point, isn't it? It's incredible how, you know, I've heard in organizations just like what yeah, you definitely want to work for that manager or they're amazing. You know people talk, they advocate their managers who are supportive, who will allow them to develop, who will allow them to live the lives that they want to live, who understand them and have empathy for them and for their needs inside of working and outside of work. And it makes such a difference. And yet we have an issue or organizations still seem to have an issue that it depends on who you work for and it depends which part of the organization you work in. Is there anything that you've heard or any organizations that got it right and that have managed to create a culture which actually trickles across the whole organization where it's the done thing everywhere, or is this still an issue where we've got local cultures?
Brian Ballantyne 24:52
I'm not very good to do best practices but I think as well, it is the way I'm changing my mindset, also through the spiritual healing and things like that. I'm moving away from expecting my company, my manager or my family to be there and to kind of support me in that way and maybe they will be and maybe they weren't but sometimes it needs to come even first of all, from us. And I see, in the past two weeks, for example, three colleagues who gave the example of a mother in law, whose mother in law had a heart attack, like in Luxembourg and Seattle, I don't know what it was about now, that particular week, and then they were saying, don't worry, I'm going to be there at work and I'm going to put the hours in and I'll be online later. And if he was, like, just go, like, really had to persuade the person that it was okay for them to switch off and have that time. And sometimes, yes, we said to the manager and other managers may or may not support the company but I think a lot of us, myself included, need to work on saying it's okay to ourselves and give ourselves that permission and saying, No, you have worked hard and like you deserve this and just go. Yes, I think, hopefully, we can get to the case studies of good companies. I think that they are there but I think a lot of us are holding ourselves back whether it falls more on women than men.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 25:59
That was my question, do you think it's harder for a man? Do you think that actually stepping away from the workplace for caring responsibilities was harder for you than potentially, your sister, for example?
Brian Ballantyne 26:13
I think it's very difficult question. I think that a lot of men and I think I have a privilege, not just being a straight white man in Western Europe but I think working in an office-based job where I can pick up my laptop and know when my mum was sick. I could work from home in North Wales and organize a funeral and everything, do my email, literally work for like an hour a day or something. If I'm working in a factory, I've got a friend who works in cargo looks, you've literally got to be there, like work isn't over Wi Fi, you're physically doing a job. And when this guy's daughter was sick, the other men in the office were like oh, why can't your wife go pick up your daughter? Why do you have to do it? She's the woman. And I think I'm pretty sheltered, I’m working in a kind of office environment where you can be more flexible. And I imagine, and it'd be great to hear from men who are working in more physical work areas, whether it's been transportation or manufacturing or whatever else, I'm sure that it's tougher for them, and in terms of you're the man kind of thing.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 27:05
I definitely think you're absolutely spot on. I think it does vary depending on the industry and depending on how male dominated and traditional the industry is. They'll have different mindsets, and interestingly, I’ve found that it depends on the senior leadership of the organization and how deep set their belief systems are. So, if they are men who rose to the top and actually had a stay at home wife, actually, they've never necessarily experienced having to balance to parent from work, and then that pervades across the organization and the culture that they then set. I think, what I'm hearing is that it depends on the organization that you're working in, and actually, it's quite important, if you are thinking of moving organizations and caring is important to you, you need to get a feel of how forward thinking that organization is for men and for women, whether you're parenting or caring in different ways.
Brian Ballantyne 28:00
I think that's very true. I think that definitely looking at an organisation and even within a larger organisation, looking at the manager or the division because it's going to vary on the kind of subcultures. I think, when I've interviewed for new jobs myself, even within the company, I said, what's your style of management? And definitely ask people who are in that person's team what's it like? And how do you balance your work? You can look on Glassdoor, and things like that as well but yeah, I'm more aware of it now and I’m realizing what I need and that it's okay to ask for it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 28:26
Yes, a lot of what you do when you're out there talking in these conferences is representing women actually, and being a male ally, I think you call yourself a female equality and progression advocate, which is incredible. And I love what you do. How important is it do you think to be a male ally? And do you think we need female allies?
Brian Ballantyne 28:51
I think that's a great question because I keep changing my mind about it. Women, and other minorities will say we don't need your help, like we can do this on our own, don't speak for us. I think it's a very delicate area. And when I attend events, I was speaking at the Aspire conference in London, over at Sam Collins in December, I said like, no, my main priority here is not to be on the stage, it is to be here for the whole two days taking part listening, and I've got to be listening more than I'm speaking. I think that's something I've learned over 25 years, working in diversity and women's equality, you’ve got to listen in. If you're going to attend these events, don't talk over the presenters, it really like shocks me when I see men turning up at events and then they’re just kind of disrespectful or not helpful. So, I think it's a very tricky area. I think that women and other minorities don't necessarily need men to support them but I think it’s important for men to kind of engage in the conversation, to kind of get themselves up to speed on what's happening and to kind of know and believe in women's stories. I think I found, for example, mentoring a lot of women, hearing their stories from friends or from my wife or from other people and just being aware of things that I had no idea were happening. A lot of men are like, well, I don't think there's an issue in the environment but they obviously haven't listened to women's stories. So, I think that's important.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 29:59
It’s basically to be open minded and to be able to say, actually, I'd really like to hear a different perspective to the one that I think these people might have. And actually, that might make a difference to me in terms of how I behave and what I do. So not by being someone who isn't speaking on behalf of women or thinking that they know what women should do but certainly is there to say, okay, I hear that, and I hadn't noticed that before. And actually, I'd quite like to support in some way, in whatever way I can to make that better.
Brian Ballantyne 30:32
Exactly. Sometimes it's like, how can I help and it's whether it's supporting by organizing events or supporting with other things and people might scoff at that. And I know when I started posting my Confession Of A Working Father posts, about a year or so ago, there was some women who were kind of affronted by it, or maybe I felt there were some of the comments they made, saying, Oh, how can you speak about this? Women have got so much to achieve and how men can't complain about this. And what I found is if you engage in the conversation and say, I think some women disagree with this, but I think generally, it is harder for women than men but that doesn't mean it's easy for me. And that doesn't mean that men don't have their own challenges. I've got colleagues who are a single dad of four kids or they're looking after their partner who's very ill, but we'll say, well, who am I to complain about it, and then you correlate that with male suicide and male mental health issues. I think that if men don't feel they can talk about it and let their guard down, then those statistics aren't going to change. And so, I think that men are trying to be more gentle, I'm seeing that more and it'd be great if other men and women could be more gentle with men as well, and be okay with them speaking up, admitting vulnerability and saying, you don't have to hold it all together. But I think that it's hard, I think a lot of men don't let other men let their guard down and women don't either. I think that's how our societies kind of train itself a little bit, if we could all, men or women allow men to be a bit more vulnerable, a bit more gentle and a bit more caring, that will definitely be useful.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 31:50
I hear you. And it's just made me think about the concept of masculinity, which is a big topic at the moment. Actually, it seems to be quite a pivotal moment, where people are starting to realise how harmful the traditional concept of masculinity can be and that actually, it isn't something that set in stone, it is something that actually that we have created as a society, that we've socially constructed what masculine is. It's almost like, there's this aha moment that's happened in the last kind of five years, and men in particular have gone, hang on a second, I don't need to sign up for this. I am struggling, however, to be something slightly different and show my more emotional side because actually, it's not something that's been embedded and taught that I can do this since I was a little boy, I haven't learned that that was okay. It's something I would like to do and I'm going to try. Can you touch on it a little bit too. So, the concept of gender stereotypes and how it reinforces what men should be, and what women should be in their roles, but also emotionally in terms of what they're displaying. Talk a little bit more about what the consequences of those gender stereotypes are and any ideas on how we change them.
Brian Ballantyne 33:06
Yeah, it's a big topic. And my mind was going kind of through history, we've got about 2 million years of known human civilization from the kind of stone tools from Tanzania, the Rift Valley, to the agricultural revolution. It's probably around the agricultural revolution, about 8000 years ago, when we stopped kind of being foragers and we kind of started planting crops and it's like, okay, men will go hunting and women will stay with the kids and the crops. And that's probably when, I guess gender roles kind of came up and then reinforced by kind of Abrahamic religion and things like that. A more modern example today is one of my children, who is gender non-conforming. For example, my 13 year old, his birthday is today, he is a born boy but presents now as a girl, and is she at school. And that's been an emotional and eye-opening kind of experience for me and my family in recent years. And now, just in terms of gender stereotypes around how education is organized or how buildings were organized, for some reason we gender them, for example, toilets, which don't necessarily need to be everyone’s toilets in terms of accessibility, why do we need to have gender divided toilets. If you're in a situation with a 13 year old, who won't go to toilet at school because there isn't one for them or you go out to the cinema and you're out in public and they don't feel safe using either restroom. That's really upsetting as a parent, or when the school decides to divide games like playing badminton or something into boys and girls and your child doesn't fit in with either of those groups. I mean, now it's good. We've spoken to the school, they've got gender neutral toilets, and my child joins in with girls, which everyone is okay with but it's like why are these things divided by gender anyway.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 34:35
This is a whole other conversation topic.
Brian Ballantyne 34:39
So that's kind of went from history to kind of very like present day but I think it's harmful. I think the idea that women are the first point of call for if your child is sick, or it's the nursery friend's mother, and we have to train them to actually phone me because I'm closer to home or phone me because I’m more flexible or on business trips. I'm going to check on my wife in case she's travelling, and they are like, oh, I hadn't thought about that.
Well, she has more than me and maybe she's travelling with her job. For example, I happen to see it all the time, you see it every day and assumptions are made about people, whether they'll be able to travel, if they are a parent. The man probably will be able to, the woman maybe she won't, let’s not give her that project. Even with like the caring for older parents, I think women are twice as likely than men to look after their parents than the man is and I'm not sure why that is. Women are kind of seen as caring and there is also this idea that women need to be perfect all the time, this kind of perfectionism, which drives kind of anger and resentment and undermine psychological safety, and there are huge kind of issues that come from that. So, I think it's a huge area.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 35:33
Yeah, absolutely. It's still emerging on how we tackle this, I think, what makes me feel hope is that we're having conversations about it because if you wind back the clock, even not that long ago, 10 years ago, maybe we just wouldn't be having the conversation. So, we've really shifted, there is a change that's happened but I think we're kind of in this murky in between area where we just don't know how to be anything else. There are some people emerging slightly further ahead than others, sort of figuring their way out around it and through the other side. And until we've got the whole system, sort of shifting from binary and thinking about actually how we embrace everyone having all sorts of responsibilities rather than trying to box people in because you're a man and you must have these responsibilities or because you're a woman, you must have these responsibilities. I think we've still got a journey.
Brian Ballantyne 36:25
Yeah, you mentioned binary. And I think that's really important in terms of gender but also the demographics. I think, from LinkedIn, it's Martin Luther King Day today. So, thinking about ethnic diversity, I think there's a lot of putting people into boxes based on their race, ethnicity, as well as, boxing people based on other characteristics, and I think it's really dangerous. Maybe we'd like to kind of be able to sort people in this way but people aren't a single story. There's so much to us as individuals, and kind of no binary like them, or us or Black or White or man or woman, it's really dangerous when we are a kind of shared humanity, really. And then getting away from the binary and just being more open to more possibilities is much more positive. It's better for us to kind of think about different possibilities and just know this or that.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 37:06
Yeah, I agree. Amazing. So just, before we finish off, it'd be really great to hear from you on what you think are some of the big issues relating to equality and caring, that you think we need to tackle, like, immediately. You know, in 2020, or in the next couple of years, what are the big things that you think organizations in particular need to tackle with regards to this.
Brian Ballantyne 37:30
So, from my point of view, and the direction I'm going, it is much more about psychological safety and belonging to underpin kind of inclusion and diversity and there seems to be kind of a lot of the thoughts going in this direction. And what's good about this kind of work is it benefits everyone, it's not like oh, men complaining, or women getting other promotions or anything like that. I think when you look at those key components to belonging, now obviously, one is psychological safety, the ability to speak up, to make mistakes without fear of physical or emotional damage. The other is about being as you are, but the other is that someone cares about me, so part of it is about us as humans being able to care about the people in our lives, our children or our family that we want to care for. But also ,we're in an organization that cares about us. I think that this is quite a soft topic that a lot of people may not take seriously but it underpins our belonging, and that's not just for women but for men and for everyone. We want to feel like at least someone cares about us and it broadens the conversation on caring that not only do we want to feel supported to care for others but we want to feel cared for. And it's like a Moulin Rouge, isn't it, like the biggest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return. I know it sounds like a song but that's fundamentally what it is like, we all want to feel love and we all want to love someone. And I think whether that's at home or at work, and then looking at that, and how that makes us feel and that makes us feel a sense of belonging. We can then look at mental health work and companies like Accenture, digital mental health allies, looking at how the psychological experience with parenting and the psychological impact of work. And then particularly in the next 20 years, there's jobs that are going to disappear, there'll be new jobs, we haven't even thought of, as with artificial intelligence, I think that psychological pressure is going to increase. And we're moving from a kind of physical work of physical presence and physical labor to a much more mental and psychological kind of work, and we need to feel cared about and grounded to be able to kind of navigate that. We're so over connected, when we're on LinkedIn, we're on social media all the time that really kind of investing in face-to-face human interactions and the science behind that, which shows the energy field that we have that with other humans, how we energize when you're there present and you don't have even over a video screen. So, I guess that's going back to kind of spiritual awakening and things like that.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 39:32
They're all related, isn't it? It's related to well-being and it's related to what we all need, in order to feel human and in order to feel valued, loved and that we belong, this is so crucial to our well-being. And that actually, is missing in today's world, and it's certainly less than it was a decade or two decades ago due to technology and all the benefits of technology. It’s great but actually it's come with some downsides, and we're only just really understanding that. I hear you, organisations, they have a place in really belonging and emphasizing that they care for their employees more than just actually getting a widget out and more than just getting everything that they can out of their employee.
Brian Ballantyne 40:14
I think so too. And I think it links even to the climate crisis as well. I think that I just put this on LinkedIn the other day, because just thinking about it, this idea of global warming is really an accumulation of individual warming. And as humans we've overfilled, we’re oversedated, we're overworked or overtired, like we're now, whether it's through kind of shareholder pressures or whatever, we're working with a lot more stress than our parents generations and just as we're kind of warming up, we're using more fossil fuels, we're travelling more, and we're doing more. Look at the planets trying to tell us and of course, we want to work to minimize the impact on the climate but I think the climate is trying to tell us something. And I think it's like kind of mirroring ourselves like our health or everything else, I think as we work on ourselves, we are getting more balanced, getting more belonging and caring for ourselves and each other more, and that extends to caring to the planet more and caring for our continued existence as humans. And so, I think that's pretty important. And I think from hearing my children, and as new generations coming through, that's super important to them. And hopefully, there'll be some kind of revolutionary thought about, like, we don't need all these products, we don't need to have as much food as we have, or we don't need to kind of work as much as we do. And I'm optimistic and hopeful as you are about the good things that's going to bring.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 41:21
Amazing. Oh, my goodness, Brian, we could carry on with everything, if I could, you know, from climate change to masculinity to work culture, and how to balance care and work. Wow, I have so enjoyed talking to you.
Brian Ballantyne 41:41
Yeah, me too. Thank you, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 41:43
Thank you. So, for people who are interested may want to get a hold of you or hear more about or read more about what you're thinking on this topic. Are you active on social media? And if so what channels you're active on?
Brian Ballantyne 41:54
I'm generally on LinkedIn, MSDN, I'm on Twitter, although I find it hard to follow. So yeah, LinkedIn, feel free to just reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn, as well. I've got other posts I've written or other books for example, all the money goes to charity, for my books goes to Winston West, which is a charity for bereaved children. So, it's a way to donate money to charity and also read but feel free to just connect with me and message me. I generally kind of reply to everyone who messages me. So yeah, it’ll be lovely to hear what people's thoughts are on this.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 42:23
Absolutely. And I do highly recommend Brian's book, Confessions Of A Working Father. I've totally got so much from it.
Brian Ballantyne 42:30
Thank you for inspiring it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 42:32
I love the fact that you're my number one guest on this show and brilliant. The link to everything that Brian and I have spoken about today are available on the show notes page, which is going to be on the Avenir consulting.co.uk. website under podcasts. So, Brian, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me today.
Brian Ballantyne: 42:51
My absolute pleasure. Thank you very much, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 42:54
Right. I'll catch up with you very soon. Thank you. That concludes my very first episode of the Why Care Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed the conversation. I loved Brian's insight at the end there, on the need to create psychological safety and belonging in the workplace, and the knock on impact this can have on our health individually and on the planet. Do let Brian and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle Nadia Nagamootoo. Have a think about something you can take away from this episode to apply in your own life and in your organization. We can all influence and make change happen. If you enjoyed this podcast, one of the best ways to support it is to leave a review on whatever platform you're listening on. You can also help me spread the word by sharing it with your friends and family on social media channels. All the good old-fashioned way of talking about it. I really do appreciate your support. A big thank you to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and to Christiane Gross for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
