Why Care? #2: Rob Baker - Walking the Talk
“Men often say to me: “So what can I do?” and the first thing I say to them is: listen.”
In this episode, I have the privilege of talking all things inclusion to Rob Baker. He is a thought leader on diversity & inclusion and on engaging men to support gender equality: at work, at home and in all aspects of life. In recognition of his achievements in supporting women in the workplace, he was named an Agent of Change 2019 by Management Today. He’s just completed an incredible 42-year career at Mercer, with his final role being Leader of Diversity and Inclusion Consulting. And has now embarked on the next stage of his career, setting up Potentia Consulting (whilst consciously not calling it retirement) and of course is an amazing member of the Avenir team!
Rob and I explore how organisations can become more inclusive, happier and successful by valuing everybody in the organisation and unlocking each employee‘s unique potential. Rob is not new to the experience of being in the minority and tells us about his time served on the all-female board of the PWN (Professional Women’s Network), where he was Co-President. He also offers his personal ‘ah-ha’ moment when he read Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates and gives us an insight into the little things men can do to promote everyday gender-equality.
Rob also reflects on the moment of profound change we are experiencing with the Covid-19 crisis and together we explore the current paradigm shift for inclusion at an organisational level as well as at a micro-level in each family‘s home. He shares how many leaders still think diversity sounds good, but they do not see the immediate need to act now. Today, I wonder if progress in inclusion and diversity in organisations will move up the leadership agenda with the global movement of #BlackLivesMatter, which began after this podcast conversation. I hope you enjoy listening!
Show links:
Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates available on Amazon.
PWN Global: https://pwnglobal.net/
Follow Rob on his LinkedIn page or on Twitter: @robertbkr.
Transcript
Rob Baker 00:00
In a way, it's very much linked to diversity and inclusion. I think because a lot of us are feeling uncertainty, stress, and anxiety, and obviously, we want to protect ourselves and we want to protect our loved ones but obviously, we're all in this together as well. And what it's made me realise is this need for us all to be thinking about the impact of our actions on others, about reaching out to others who maybe need to get support, maybe they're less well situated, maybe they're vulnerable.
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:24
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, a Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated.
With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to Episode 2 of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. What's the shift that we're going to see in the world of work as a result of COVID-19? And how can leaders step up to one of the biggest leadership challenges they will face in their lifetime? These questions and many more will be answered on today's podcast when I speak to my guest on the show, Rob Baker. He has a 42-year career at Mercer, a global consulting firm, where his last role was as the leader of diversity and inclusion consulting for the international region. He is a thought leader on diversity and inclusion, and on engaging men to support gender equality. In recognition of his achievements in supporting women in the workplace, he was named Agent of Change 2019 by Management Today.
He was the first male Co-President of the major Women's Network PWN Global, and now retired, he has set up his own company, Potentia, as well as being a key member of the Avenir team. We talk about the impact of Coronavirus on inclusion and diversity, what organisations are struggling with in regard to inclusion, why it's vital to get things right, and the importance of empathy in creating inclusive cultures and societies. Finally, Rob Baker takes a forward look at the paradigm shift that COVID-19 will inevitably create and what organisations need to do to prepare for that. The years of experience and knowledge come through clearly, and Rob's active passion for creating justice, fairness, and appreciation are inspiring. Enjoy the show. Rob, thank you so much for being on my show today, the Why Care Podcast, it's absolutely wonderful to see you. And I know that you've spent the last eight weeks or so on sabbatical in America. So, can you maybe just tell me a little bit about that?
Rob Baker 03:31
Sure. Hi, Nadia. Well, it's really great to be with you, and thanks for inviting me to your podcast. The eight-week sabbatical was a fantastic opportunity to spend some time, first of all, decompressing and really resting and relaxing after 42 years working with Mercer, a global consulting firm, and really getting a chance to reflect on what I wanted to do next. I was very, and still, I am very convinced that I've still got a lot to offer, I want to work on what I'm calling the next stage of my career. So, this was an opportunity to really think about that a bit more, I read some very interesting books about some interesting people and thought through what I wanted to do. So, it was just a fantastic time. But of course, while we were away, the Coronavirus pandemic was starting to happen and come through. So, I think we're very, very lucky on the timing of our trip that we could do it when we did it, and also get back to the UK safely. So, we got back a couple of weeks ago but obviously, we've come back to a very different world from the one we left.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:27
Yeah, indeed. And I think now more than ever, our conversation’s relevant and the world has shifted so much that I think from the time when we first put this podcast recording in the diary, we will probably end up with a very different conversation now in terms of insights for organisations, what can they do to create a more inclusive organisation in this very bizarre time where we're all in our homes and the organisations couldn't be more dispersed? So yeah, I'm really excited.
Rob Baker 04:59
Yeah, I mean, as you said, Nadia obviously, the thing that certainly occurred to me was that our conversation today was going to be very different than it would have been a few months ago in the light of where we all are with Coronavirus. And in a way, it's very much linked to diversity and inclusion, I think, because a lot of us are feeling uncertainty, stress, anxiety, and obviously, we want to protect ourselves and we want to protect our loved ones but obviously, we're all in this together as well. And what this made me realise is this need for us all to be thinking about the impact of our actions on others, reaching out to others who maybe need to get support, maybe they're less well situated. It's very hard for us to know exactly how it's all going to pan out yet and what the long-term effects are going to be.
But what I'm hoping is, we're going to continue to value relationships that we have, that we’re going to continue to value, especially global relationships and realise how interconnected we are and how interdependent we are. So, this whole coronavirus background has certainly upended my thinking about my next stage but it's also reinforced my feelings that we need to value more and more of the benefits of a diverse and inclusive world. And we really want to make sure that what I regard as core values of justice, fairness, and appreciation of others prevail, I just wanted to put that context there because it's going to reflect and be threading through all the different things we discussed.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:12
Before we get into a current state of play, tell me a little bit about your last role. So, when you were at Mercer before you retired, you were the leader of diversity and inclusion consulting. So, what did that involve? Why were you interested in such a role? And tell me a little bit about what you found when you were talking to organisations, and you were consulting organisations.
Rob Baker 06:34
So, the role that I had at Mercer before I retired, as you mentioned, was the leader of diversity and inclusion consulting in our international region, which is everything outside the US and Canada. And what I was trying to do in that role was really build on the great work that Mercer had done in the past in the diversity and inclusion space, especially around this ground-breaking research on where women thrive. And more specifically, what I wanted to do was enhance Mercer’s brand and its impact in the diversity and inclusion field, develop our value proposition to clients, how we can support, and of course, it was to increase the amount of consulting work that we did with clients in the diversity and inclusion space. That was the purpose of the role. And I think the reason that I went for it was that at 42 years at Mercer, I've done a variety of different roles but this was the last role that I had.
And the reason I was drawn to it really was this passion and idea that we can create better and happier companies, workplaces, families, and individuals by giving everybody an opportunity to be valued, to progress, and to realise their full potential. And I think how this started for me was when I took the role on the board of the Women's Network, PWN Global, leading women's network, I realised that we still got all these challenges of achieving gender equality. And actually, there are really good roles that men can play to help support and advance gender equality. So, that was a starting point. And then I got into really thinking, well, actually, there are real challenges for organisations in building diverse talent and bringing diverse talent in. But I think one of the key challenges that I found in this work that we did was actually many leaders of organisations really don't understand or don't appreciate why this is so important. They don't really value the benefits that having a diverse and inclusive workforce brings.
A lot of them say they do but when you look at their actions, it doesn't really appear, and the actions really bear that out. What I saw was that organisations were still drawing their workforce from sources that weren't allowing them to have enough diversity. And they don't have the right programmes, they don’t have the right policies in place to support diverse colleagues when they come in. And I was aware, and increasingly there are many studies and you're aware of them too I'm sure of, that show actually, organisations benefit from diversity and inclusion at times, they benefit from different thinking, new ideas, and innovation. And these organisations that don't take this seriously or don't value it are really missing out on real economic value and shareholder value. So, I felt when I left Mercer, there was still a huge amount more to do. And so, I want to continue to play my part in building a more diverse and inclusive world. And obviously, now I'm going to do this in my next career stage.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:58
I find it fascinating actually, that despite the business case being very, very clear, actually organisations are still working towards and figuring out what it means to embrace diversity in their organisation. Do you think organisations are still trying to figure out why? Or do you think they've got the why, they just don't know the how?
Rob Baker 09:17
There's much more awareness now of the why, and I think there's definitely not enough awareness of the how, so, they definitely need support with that. I was surprised, perhaps even shocked how many organisations I spoke to that didn't really get the why in the first place or didn't realise their business sufficiently. I think for many companies, they were being driven by as you would probably expect, short-term goals towards shareholder value, corporate performance, hitting targets, etc., very much had a business as usual mentality, you know, we've got to focus on this, it's urgent, the world is changing fast, we're being disrupted and we've got to move faster. And I don't think they felt any work that they did in diversity and inclusion would come quickly enough or have the benefits that they wanted in terms of short-term and immediate corporate performance.
So, I felt many organisations were thinking, this all sounds good, and we should do it at some point but do we need to do it now? This is the classic problem of, if you put something off which you should be doing, actually, you might find that really, if you’d started it, you'd already be in a better position. So real concerns that there weren't enough organisations really appreciating how this could make such an impact on them. And obviously, it does take a while to put in place diversity and inclusion programmes but it doesn't take forever, and you can actually make progress fairly quickly. And you can start to show that you're an organisation that really values diverse and inclusive talent and you can start seeing that showing up in the way that you recruit, attract and retain your staff fairly quickly.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:41
I hear that, and I've seen it as well in organisations, it's almost like, it's so intangible, how do we know we've got there if we do it? So, it's like, how do we measure this thing called an inclusive culture for the organisation? It's almost so big that they feel stuck, it paralyses them because it's such a big thing to do. Do you have any best practice tips that you've seen or things that organisations have implemented that were able to be measured and that really did show a massive impact?
Rob Baker 11:12
Well, I think when we used to get the attention and still do get the attention of leaders, is to ask them to think about what's happening in the world, what's happening with their business, what's happening with the talent that they want to bring into their organisation, and what's happening with their customers and what's happening with their shareholders as well? And when you get into thinking about this, they start to see the need for more attention to be paid to diversity and inclusion. So, for example, if you talk to them about talent, they're always talking. I speak to many CEOs that say, we need more innovation and we need new ideas, they've realised that but actually, where are those new ideas going to come from? Are they going to get different opinions from attracting and retaining the same kind of people? Their customers are starting to want more diversity.
So, whether a firm wants to employ consultants or individuals wanting to buy a new car, I mean, customers are increasingly diverse, and if companies don't realise that, they're missing out. But then of course, shareholders are also realising now, I think there's a growing list of investors in companies who say, we recognise the benefits of gender equality, we don't see enough gender equality in your organisation, especially in your board, we think that's going to be deleterious to us over the long term in terms of our shareholder return. So actually, we're not so keen to be investing in you. So, there are very clear studies that show shareholder return is better in organisations that are more balanced. So that's the key area to focus on to really get these organisations to pay attention but then, of course, the leaders have got to start doing something different.
And what they need to do is they need to start being role models for diversity and inclusion, they need to start promoting diverse talent, they need to recognise that diverse talent, they need to realise the extra steps they need to do to give that talent opportunity, they need to be changing the policies and the programmes in their organisation, so that their organisation can be seen to be an organisation that wants to attract and retain diverse talent. And those leaders can also be out there on the public stage talking about why this is so important to their business but also why it's more important as well. And I think the successful organisations are the ones that have been able to do that. I mean, I've been very lucky to work with successful organisations in my time at Mercer, and one organisation I worked with very closely was Unilever.
I still follow Unilever very closely, and all the great work that they've done in terms of transforming their organisation into being more diverse and inclusive. How they've got, I think it's now half their leadership is female, for example, there's more diversity in their leadership than ever before. They're very proud of that, as they rightly should be. They're also very proud that they're reaching out to their customers with non-stereotyped advertising, for example. And so, they thought through the impact on the whole of their business of being an organisation that has a purpose, which stands for something, and to which everybody can relate to. So, there are lots that leaders can do and it definitely starts with leaders, leaders need to get it and then leaders need to practice it, not just talk about it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 13:57
Yeah, and that's exactly what I've seen as well, the organisations that are slower, if you see the gender pay gap reporting from one year to the next, those organisations that have barely moved, or even unfortunately, gone backward. The key really is that the senior leaders aren't living it, they're not speaking about it, they're not role modelling it as you just mentioned, really in caring responsibilities and how that plays a big role in agenda inclusive organisation. So, from what you've seen organisations doing with regard to supporting people in their caring responsibilities, to what extent is that a factor in how quickly they've managed to change this dial with regard to gender inclusion?
Rob Baker 14:40
Yeah, I think it's been really important. And I think we've seen some really good steps but there's a huge amount more to be done. And I think what I saw in a lot of the work that I did with men, for example, in gender equality, so one of the things that I was doing was trying to work with groups of men on how can men be looking at their role in the workplace now, and their role in gender inclusion and gender equality? And I ran a number of workshops with men just talking about the issues for them. And what became clear is that men do want to talk more about their emotions, they want to talk about mental health, they want to talk about having a greater role in childcare, and actually the home, etc. But they’ve always felt held back in a sense by the stereotypes that exist around this, where either colleagues or their organisation or their managers would see them as being less serious about their careers or not as dedicated as they were to their work. I think a big part of what's needed to happen here is that we've needed to open up that conversation so that men and women and all genders can talk about the stereotypes, the roles, and the challenges that they face.
And a key part of that, I think, is around caring. So, organisations have needed to make it clear that they want to support all their employees, if they want to be parents, for example, and take on parental leave, they want to offer opportunities to work flexibly. They want, however, to still show that their employees can make career progress and be recognised for those contributions. So, the companies that have been putting those kinds of programmes in place, I think, have really seen the benefits and there's a huge amount of extra loyalty that comes from employees when organisations offer these opportunities. So, I think you're very right, I think we are in a different era now, for example, men I'm working with, now the younger generation of men coming through, they actually do want to do more, they want to take on more caring responsibilities, they want to also progress their careers as well. So I think the organisations that are really getting this are the ones that are making that a bit easier for them to first of all voice their need and their desires to be what I call whole in the workplace and give them that opportunity to take the parental leave, to work flexibly, etc., but still pursue their careers as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:51
Yeah, because one of the things you just mentioned there was around stereotypes. And the workshop that we ran at Mercer around shattering stereotypes was aimed at trying to get men and women to share their stories, to share some of the languages that were used by men for women and women to men in terms of the expectations that each of them has of each other. And it actually left people thinking and quite surprised from what I recall around, I never knew that that happened in these organisations, that people actually said that to you. I can't believe that that's the case here. It made me think about the importance of empathy and the importance of opening up and sharing lived experiences, and how crucial that is. Can you just talk a little bit more about how you think we can shatter those stereotypes?
Rob Baker 17:39
Yes, it was great fun working on that workshop. It was so successful, and we got such good feedback, that actually we repeated that in our Chicago office. I mean, our session was more about how men and women face stereotypes, etc. The session we did in Chicago, was around every type of stereotype across the full range of diversity and inclusion. The thing that really came out of that, I think, was what we realised was that stereotypes are very powerful, that they're there, they exist, that they're very powerful in society, in companies, and even in all of our own minds, but they can hold us back as well. And the classic one I had was this little girl who wanted to be a firefighter, but she could never find any books with girl firefighters, they're always boy firefighters or men firefighters, and she went to her mom and said, ‘Mom, can girls be firefighters?’ And her mom said, ‘of course, they can’. And her mom went onto the internet, and she sent a message out, ‘are there any female firefighters out there? My daughter thinks there aren't.’ Immediately she got a response from all these female firefighter crews.
It was a tremendously heart-warming story about how that little girl could be reassured that actually, whatever career she wanted, firefighter included, she could do it. So, I think that whole thing about stereotypes being powerful and holding us back. And there are equally powerful stereotypes for men. Can men be nursery teachers for example? What's holding them back there? Going back to the sessions that we ran, I think what became very clear to me was that women have been experiencing these issues, whether it's microaggressions, or stereotyping in the workplace for many, many years. And the stories that we've been told in the workshops that we ran were very, very powerful around what they saw, felt, and experienced in the workplace. And they had a way of articulating them that we’re very, very used to, and I think, for the men, this was much newer for them, I think they were much less articulate than what we saw.
So, for example, I think for the women, we asked them to write flip charts, and the women had four flip charts full, and the men had about half a flip chart, basically full. The men had much less in a sense to say, but actually, when they raised the points, I remember one man passionately saying, he wants to leave early for his daughter's school play and one of his male colleagues said, ‘Well, can't your wife go?’ He felt so disappointed in his colleagues and so upset that they had that view. Men still feel very deeply about these things but I think we're still rebuilding our language and articulating the impact of this. The best thing that comes out really here in what we did, I think very successfully was sharing, when you have the men talking to the women about what the men experience and the women talking to the men about what the women experience, there's that sharing and understanding of each other's perspectives, which I think then creates greater understanding between the genders.
And when you run this as part of an even broader diversity and inclusion perspective, it really helps. With Chicago, for example, we had black people talking about the impact they'd had with discrimination for them based on the fact that they were black, whether that was in restaurants, or wherever. And you had people talking about how they were discriminated against because they were on the autistic spectrum, for example. So, I think, as you said, empathy is absolutely critical here. I think we're realising it's even more important now in the circumstances that we're in now, is that we need to be putting ourselves in each other's shoes. So, for example, we need to be putting ourselves in the shoes of people that are over 70, who are very vulnerable, and be thinking, Okay, so what's life like for them now? And how can we support them? How do we support each other? And so more than ever before, empathy and getting rid of these stereotypes are absolutely critical.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:03
Yes. And it seems to me when we're talking about community and when we talk about the coronavirus, we talk about bringing the community together and handing out those flyers through people's doors saying, ‘Here's my telephone number, please do let me know if you need anything’. It's almost like that is mirroring what we need to do within organisations around reaching out, actively reaching out, and saying, ‘I want to hear from you. Tell me your story. Tell me what it is like to live in your shoes. I understand that it's different to the way that I see the world and I live through the world, and I'm really interested in how you do, because together and through that community, and through that inclusiveness, that's how we can be more productive, more effective, we can learn about each other and we can be happier as a society together.’
Rob Baker 21:47
Absolutely. In the work that I do with men, they often say to me, ‘great, so what can I do?’ Okay, and the first thing I say to most men is, ‘listen to, for example, women in the workplace, talking about their experiences, and just listen, basically.’ And what happens then when they listen to somebody else talking about their perspective, take it on board, and then think about what you can do about it, that is the starting point for them understanding more about how their actions or the world as it now impacts on others, and then give them a better insight into what they can do to change their own behaviours. So, for example, I mean, I read a book called Everyday Sexism.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:25
Yes, I’ve read that. Quite shocking, actually, some of those stories, right?
Rob Baker 22:30
Oh, incredibly shocking. I think all men should read Everyday Sexism. It’s been out for a few years now, but it's still a great book. And there was a great website she started as well. It talks about women's experience in the workplace and in broader society, the microaggressions and the various other things that are very real, and the harassment that they face. I read that book and it really opened my eyes because I didn't realise what women went through on a daily basis, at the hands of men and others, in terms of the comments that they get and the treatment they get.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:58
Once you had read the book, were you more aware of it? Were you seeing it play out in front of you?
Rob Baker 23:04
Very, very much. So, what was interesting was I talked to my wife and to my daughter afterward about their experiences with it. And they were telling me about the experiences they've come across, with my daughter, for example, when she was a schoolgirl when walking home after school and there was a man in the street and my wife had said she was going down the street late at night and didn't feel safe. This guy was walking right behind her. I hadn't even thought about that. I walk down the street, I don't have to think about who's behind me, typically. What I then did, of course, then I thought, Okay, well, next time I'm walking behind a woman in the street, I'll go over to the other side of the street, and just make it clear, in a sense that I'm not following her or anything. So, I've been able to change my behaviour as a result of being more aware of what the issues are for others.
And yeah, once you're sensitised to it, and you know more about it, you then spot it. And some of the work that we did subsequently, in virtual reality was we created a virtual reality experience for men to put a virtual reality headset on and experience microaggressions that women experience in the workplace as if they were the women experiencing those microaggressions. And it led to building empathy, if you like, through using technology, trying to give men, for example, the experience of what it's like to be a woman in the world. And we've generated some really interesting feedback from the men on what they saw and they were shocked, really, of just how much the impact this had, even in what they thought was a fair and equal workplace, there were still these things coming out.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:28
Yeah, I'm interested actually, in your work. You mentioned PWN Global, and we must talk about it because it's very rare for a man to be co-leading a women's group and it was I think the first time it had happened in PWN Global. So why did you decide to take on that role? And what do you feel was the impact of you doing that?
Rob Baker 24:49
Well, I think originally, I took the role because I've always been interested in equality, justice, and fairness. I was very much aware of the fact that it's a man's world and men, therefore, had a responsibility to do something to make it a more equal world. I was quite lucky because, through the women's network at Mercer that I got involved with, I got introduced to PWN, it was called the professional women's network but what they wanted to do was they wanted to start reaching out and involving men because what they realised was that, with men being 80% of leaders in the workplace, and being obviously a very large proportion of line managers, etc, they didn't engage men in the conversation, but the women will just end up talking to themselves and progress was much slower. So, PWN is very far-sighted and they asked me to join their board, I was the only man on the board. So that was a very interesting experience.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:37
Yeah. How did that feel?
Rob Baker 25:38
I think, basically, firstly, I took it on because I wanted to expand my horizon. I wanted to understand more about what it was like to be in that environment. So, I wanted to use it as a way to grow, in a sense my awareness of the issues that women face but also grow as an individual in terms of how I deal with this. And what it was like was actually it was quite intimidating at first, to be honest with you, because this was a group of very smart and very capable women who did their homework. And so, we go to board meetings, and they'd all be really up in all the issues, and they'd be very articulate about it all and at first, I was struggling to keep up with them, partly because I didn't share all the vocabulary. And to be honest, I think at the beginning, I think like many men, I thought, well, I can afford to read the papers a little bit before the meeting, I realized actually pretty quickly that in this group, you certainly couldn't do that. What I also realised was that there were differences in the way that we approach things.
So, I asked, for example, fairly early on in my role for a budget for PR to get the word out there about gender equality and men's role. And some of the women were saying, ‘Well, no one's ever asked for a budget before. A man comes on, and immediately, he is asking for a budget.’ And what I learned also from them was, if I want to get an idea across to people, I'd come into the meeting and think, Well, I've had this great idea. It's so good. They're all going to love it immediately. And they're all going to say, ‘Wow, Robert, what a fantastic idea’. What I found was, that didn't really work always as well, because sometimes I didn't maybe articulate it as well. I know I hadn't socialised it as well, what I found was that women were very good at doing it, they're very good at thinking about okay, so who do I need to bring on board to get this idea accepted? And they do a bit of socialisation of it, so, I learned a lot from watching how they operated and I hope they learned a bit from me in terms of how I operated. And I think we reflected on that, and we thought that that was true.
So, the board experience, firstly, of being the only man on the board, I did that for six years and then after six years, I was looking for a change. And they said, well, actually, we've never done this before, we'd love to have a male Co-President to really show that we’re serious about gender equality. And so along with Sonia Richardson, who was the sole president at the time, I became a Co-President, and we did that for two years together. And that was really fascinating, because then I got really at the forefront of representing the network, working with the local city networks at PWN like in London, Milan, and Paris, to help drive gender equality there. And yeah, so I was very pleased, in a sense when my time came to then pass on the baton as it were but I'm still very active in the field. And I'm still very active with PWN and the Global Ambassador for PWN but also involved with PWN in London and I really want to continue to get men engaged in this. And I've run some workshops, and I ran an executive dinner last year because there's still a huge hunger for men to get engaged in this and there's still a huge amount that men can do to contribute.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:27
You've now set up Potentia consulting, is that partly what you're offering to organisations? Or is it broader than that?
Rob Baker 28:34
Well, I think I am very happy to offer to organisations how they can get their men aligned behind gender equality and broader diversity and inclusion within the organisation. I've done a lot of work on that within Mercer and also with other organisations. So that would definitely be something. We've done workshops and individual sessions with leaders around that. But when I took a step back from the work I've done at Mercer and that diversity and inclusion work, I was thinking, well, what is the central challenge, if you like, that I want to better help with and I feel that I can make a contribution to. And to me, it came out in a single word, which is around potential, so, I coined the phrase for my organisation Potentia Consulting, basically around the Latin word for potential, which, surprisingly, is potentia. But basically, what I want to do is I want to help companies and individuals realise the potential that they've got. So that's helped companies realise they've got amazing potential in their current and future employees of all backgrounds and of all experiences but also to help individuals realise the potential that they've got.
And so much of the work that I'm going to be doing here is about helping leaders understand and going back to this why, why should leaders be focusing on this? I want to help them understand more about developing their perspectives and capabilities around including a wide range of diverse and inclusive talent and getting the best out of that talent. And I attended a really fascinating workshop last year at London Business School, run by Professor Herminia Ibarra and it was all about the growth mindset. We had a number of academics talking about how organisations can benefit from adopting a growth mindset because it helps them become more innovative and to grow. One of the academics that have done some research around potential found that when organisations regarded all of their employees as having potential, they achieved much better corporate performance than if they just hived off a few of their high potential as it were, and just focused on them. So that really drove home to me that we need to focus on everybody and help everybody advance and help unlock that potential.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:40
It's super exciting, I love the way you’re thinking. I think what excites me in hearing you speak about your company and what you plan to do, is that you already have influential power, you've already built a lot of credibility in this space through PWN and you were recognised as the agent of change at 2019, for all of your support to women in the workplace. I love that you're not retiring quite frankly, because I think that yeah, absolutely, organisations have a huge amount to gain from having you there facilitating and helping them with their strategies and creating a more inclusive organisation. We are coming towards the end of our conversation, and I'm really interested in, based on all of your insight from your work at Mercer and from the conversations you've been having more recently, what do you think is the one big thing if you were to choose one big thing that organisations should really work on in regards to gender inclusion, diversity, caring responsibilities, just anything that organisations in this next decade should be really focusing on?
Rob Baker 31:41
For me, the big thing that organisations need to get right going forward is that mindset really, organisations don't just exist to create shareholder value, of course, it is important, I'm a shareholder, and I want to see my shares go up rather than down and so that's important to me. But what I think I also recognise is that companies don't exist in that financial vacuum, companies exist to basically make a difference in the world, to provide employment, to create good products, to create good services, and to help people. It's really inspiring to me to see the way that organisations are actually responding to this crisis. In this crisis, this is where you see leadership and this is where you see what people truly value. We have seen some organisations just getting rid of people and making them redundant because of the coronavirus thing, we have seen other organisations saying, ‘no, look for as long as possible, we're going to continue to pay our people, employ them, to connect with them, etc., and keep in touch with them so that we can rebuild when we get to the other end of this, whenever that is.’ That's what we should be looking at now. These organisations and leaders that are saying, ‘we have a responsibility to society, so we need to close down in the short term because we don’t want to contribute to the greater spread and growth of this coronavirus but we also have a responsibility to our employees, who’ve given everything to get us where we are today and we need to respect our responsibilities to them.’
But then also to the wider community, I think we're going to be much more interested in going forward also in sustainability and how this relates to the world we create because then what we will also realise is that we just cannot carry on doing business the way that we were doing business before. I think we did need a paradigm shift. It's very unfortunate, extremely unfortunate that this coronavirus has happened. If there's one thing that hopefully could come out of it is that we'll create a new paradigm around how organisations think, how they work, what their purpose is, how they deliver good things in society, and how we all work together to be part of that. Whatever our age, whatever our agenda, whatever our background or ethnicity, whatever it is, we've all got a part to play in this and we're all connected in it, so we need to work together on it. Hopefully, that's not too long an answer, but I think that's broadly the big thing that organisations and leaders, I think leaders are absolutely critical here. Individual leaders of organisations are critical to point the way as to how this should be done.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:04
Yeah. I love that. And I think that the concept of a paradigm shift following the coronavirus would be ideal. It didn't come through that, I hear you, but it will happen and people will be working fundamentally in a different way, our whole culture and society as we know it will be fundamentally different. And I do say to some of my friends that we are going to be our grandchildren's school project one day, and they will be asking us, ‘so when you were working, you actually traveled to work every day on the train? And why was that?’ Because it's just not going to be the way that in their lifetime that they would know the working world. So, I see good things coming from this. I think that organisations and certainly leaders have to manage that uncertainty and figure out the path. We don't know what the paradigm actually will shift to and we're figuring it out, and I hear you that it's probably one of the biggest leadership challenges that anyone might face in their lifetime actually.
Rob Baker 35:00
Yeah, Absolutely, that's definitely, I think to some extent, it’s organisational to the macro level. I think there's also a micro level of this as well, which is basically all of us at home. So here we are all at home, and the paradigm is shifting at home. So, for example, I'm at home with my wife, there's a much bigger discussion now, but I think there's an opportunity for all of us men, for example, to step up and do more in this space if we haven't before. I think there will be a paradigm shift at home, at least I'd like to think there would be a paradigm shift at home because we're all going to be doing more of this. So, we've got to think now, how do we share work? How do we share a home? How do we combine it all so that it works for everybody? Given that we all want to have careers and we've all got a contribution to make, there should now be no distinction between who does what, I think we’re all up for everything. For me, the key thing is really, what can we learn? What positives can we take out of the horrible situation that we're all in? How can we use this opportunity to change for the better both at work and at home and in our broader lives?
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:55
Thank you so much, Rob. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights.
Rob Baker 36:01
Thank you, Nadia. It's been a real pleasure. And the questions we've been batting around here are ones I'm sure that a lot of others are going to have thoughts and feelings about, so I’d be very happy to hear the feedback and comments we get.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:12
Yeah, so people can get hold of you if they're interested. Are you active on social media?
Rob Baker 36:17
You can find me on LinkedIn. And then on Twitter, I'm on @Robertbkr.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:26
Brilliant, fantastic. So, the links to everything that Rob and I have spoken about today are available on the show notes page, which is in the usual place, Avenirconsultingservices.com under podcasts. Rob, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. I love chatting with you, as always, and I guess watch this space in terms of something that we can jointly collaborate on.
Rob Baker 36:46
Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to that, Nadia. So great. Thanks a lot, and I really enjoyed chatting with you. Cheers.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:51
Thank you. That concludes Episode 2 of the Why Care Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed the conversation. We could have continued delving deeper into this subject for hours. I find Rob's understanding of the macroeconomic context created by COVID-19 and his future vision of the paradigm shift of how we work so insightful. Do let Rob and me know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @NadiaNagamootoo. And as always, I really appreciate the support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with friends and family. A huge thank you to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and to Christiane Gross for supporting the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
