Why Care? #24: Geoffrey Williams - DEI: Creating a Holistic Narrative
“Everyone has their personal passion points, and [DEI] conversation[s are] often looked at from a personal viewpoint. So it’s not really looked at as a business driver or a business conversation, it’s looked at as ‘I care about gender’, ‘I care about race’, ‘I care about disability because my child has a disability’ and you have to encourage the leaders to go outside the scope of their personal passion”
In Episode 24 I am joined by Geoffrey Williams, Vice President / Global Head Diversity Equity & Inclusion at Burberry, to discuss empowering the next generation of workers, the toxic cycle of “paying your dues”, and the cultural nuances in global DEI strategy.
As with many DEI professionals, Geoffrey didn’t start out in the field – in fact he hesitated to work in DEI when he was given the first opportunity so as not to be stereotyped. Starting out in the music and entertainment business, his increasing work with people led him to move over into Learning & Development in HR. It was during this role he bore witness to an unfair scenario that led him speaking up to the CEO. This culminated in Geoffrey being offered a DEI role to help rectify the situation, and after much research he realised DEI work was more than just giving speeches about discrimination.
After talking about growing up as a Black boy in the UK in the 80s and the role of his parents in teaching how to navigate this, we talk about Geoffrey’s current work with Rocking Ur Teams in empowering and educating the youth of today and making their career aspirations accessible. This progresses into a discussion over how the expectations of the current youth entering the workforce are different to previous generations, and how organisations desperately need to adapt if they want the best talent.
This adaption includes how organisations and leaders must break the cycle of “paying your dues” with entry level employees committing overtime, free labour and demeaning tasks because that’s what the leaders had to do. Geoffrey shares how leaders must be engaged with DEI beyond their own pet passion projects or characteristics relevant to them - he calls this leaders being “bubble bound” to their own social bubble and worldview.
As we bring the conversation to a close, we discuss the common response of “oh well that doesn’t happen here” that we both hear when talking about racism or other discrimination. Many people believe that discrimination problems in other countries don’t happen in their own country due to it manifesting in different ways. Geoffrey explains how this is a cultural nuance that must be adapted to by global organisations, but western leaders should be careful to do it sensitively and not prioritise their own western views.
Links:
Geoffrey can be found on
LinkedIn at Geoffrey O. Williams
Instagram at @geoffrey.o.williams
Twitter at @GWEntertainment
Geoffrey can also be found on his website at: https://geoffreyowilliams.com/
For more from Rocking Ur Teams, visit: http://rockingurteens.com/
For Geoffrey’s Ted X talk on ‘The Pressure on Young Shoulders’ visit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0tGp3eRIs&ab_channel=TEDxTalks
Link to Google’s Manager research Geoffrey refers to
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Transcript
Geoffrey Williams 0:00
Sometimes, D&I work done well is challenging what your mom, your dad, and your grandparents told you. And that's uncomfortable because you believe in those people with all your heart, they are your NorthStar most of the time, you said to me earlier on, what have your parents taught you? That's what they taught me. So, then if you're going to turn around and tell me, hey, what your mum and dad said, isn't the truth, like it's a little bit dicey. So, you're having that conversation as well within this work, and that then becomes a piece that people have to unpick. So, it's a little bit like therapy.
Nadia Nagamootoo 0:35
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 24 of the Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. In this episode, I speak to Geoffrey Williams, who is awe-inspiring with a number of DEI roles, he is truly living and breathing what he stands for. Geoffrey is the VP and Global Head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for Burberry, previously at Dr. Martens and Thomson Reuters. He's also the co-founder of the social enterprise, Rocking Ur Teens, which introduces young people aged 13 to 14 to the world of work, and offers programmes that develop an entrepreneurial spirit, agility and flexibility, self-esteem, and good mental health. And that's just a couple of his roles, not to mention being an award-winning filmmaker. Geoffrey and I speak about; as DEI professionals, how we get people to move beyond their personal viewpoint on why DEI is important to them, to appreciate the bigger context in order to drive real change. He shares his insights on Gen Z, their values and what they look for in employers, and the challenges organisations will inevitably face if they don't focus on DEI. He also provides valuable advice to any DEI professional wanting to make progress in a global organisation. And there's so much more. Enjoy. Geoffrey, hello. Thank you so much for joining me on the Why Care Podcast Show. I really appreciate speaking to you, and everything that you're going to share with us today.
Geoffrey Williams 3:31
Thank you so much for having me, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo 3:33
I have followed you, slightly stalker-like on LinkedIn. I'm really happy to speak to you. I would love to hear a bit more about your diversity, equity, and inclusion journey, because everyone's got a story, and I'd love to hear more about yours. And in particular, I've checked out your TEDx and I know how influential your parents were in shaping you, in some of their teachings. So, I'd love to hear a little bit more.
Geoffrey Williams 4:03
So, my journey in D&I, it wasn't what I initially set out to do. So, I think if anyone kind of goes and looks at my background, I started my career in the entertainment industry, I spent some time in music, I was very much creative, and I wanted to work in that space since I was a child, and got the opportunity, and spent some time there. But then as I started to, I guess think about my career and where I wanted to go next, I started to evolve more into the kind of people space, because again, working in music, I was doing people-related stuff, but it was kind of that journey of, what do I want to do next? And I kind of landed in HR. I was in HR doing a learning and development role on some talent work, and basically, something happened that I thought wasn't fair, and I kind of challenged the fairness and the equity that was taking place for most senior individuals within a programme that we were doing, to my boss. And he kind of said to me, ‘oh, well you seem really passionate about diversity and inclusion’, I was like, ‘no, I'm not that passionate about that, I'm passionate that we treat people fairly’, and I think to me, that's the important part. And from that my D&I journey actually started. So, after we had the conversation, he said to me, ‘well maybe you could write a D&I strategy for us on gender’, and I was like, ‘no, I don't want to do that’.
Nadia Nagamootoo 5:17
What was the reason? What was the push button? Is it genuinely because it wasn't something that you were leaning towards? Or is it that you didn't want to be pigeonholed as someone of a Black Heritage working in the D&I space?
Geoffrey Williams 5:28
It was a combination of both. I didn't see the value at the time, it was kind of, you know, selfishly, where's this going to take my career? Am I going to have to be knocking around talking about race, and talking about myself, and all the things that come with that narrative and that story? I don't really want to do that. And I wasn't sure that the organisation I was with was taking it that seriously, because it was kind of like, well, I look up, and I can see one individual that's a black woman that sits in a senior role, and then between her and me, I can't see anyone else. So, you know, how seriously are you taking this work? And why are you asking me, effectively, I'm complaining about someone's behaviour, and you're telling me about the D&I strategy? So, it was a funny moment. Thankfully, he convinced me to have the conversation to really reflect on what the work that he was asking me to do, could do for the business. And it was like, literally 2010-2011, so, I reached out to people on LinkedIn and just said, ‘explain to me, you do D&I work, what does it actually mean?’ And then I realised it was about strategy, it was about culture, it was about branding and marketing, it was about a vision and a journey, it was about people, it was about the business. It wasn't kind of what I thought it was, which was writing your 1001 policies, and no one is paying attention, and kind of like this work done well could encompass every facet of running a successful business. So, when I saw that, I was like, oh, this is actually a lot more fascinating. And it kind of tied into the learning and development work that I had been doing, the talent work that I had been doing, the bits of OD, but also, I guess going back to my music days and thinking about managing people, and I worked with people that have lovely talent but big egos. And how do you manage all of that? So, kind of seeing all of that come to life and kind of saying, oh, actually, this is a really great pathway for me to go on, I guess became my D&I journey, and 12 years later, here we are.
Nadia Nagamootoo 7:23
I love that. So that is how you fell into HR, and then you were asked to write a D&I strategy. Then the research took place to figure out if this was something that you wanted. And so, where do your parents become influential in this story?
Geoffrey Williams 7:40
So, I think my parents are influential in the sense of wanting people to be treated with respect and fairness. So, I'm the eldest of 6, I have 5 brothers and sisters, and my parents couldn’t take sides in arguments and debates. So, they kind of always pushed us to kind of talk it out amongst ourselves and figure out how we could get to a compromise or understanding that, hey, we're different, and we're individuals, but we are a family. And I think also, both my parents are very logical, we'd always kind of have debates and conversations. And I think, growing up in the UK in the 80s, it wasn't too dissimilar to what's going on in the world right now, in the sense of racism, sexism, and homophobia. And they had to kind of make sure that their black children knew how to operate in this white society, and to do it in a way that they still had some sense of self and a sense of pride. This is because they thought that it was important for me to know my self-worth, to know where my barriers and my boundaries were, what I was willing to accept, what I would challenge, and the things that I'd be okay walking away from as well. Because I think sometimes people feel that they have to fight every fight, and not every fight is worth your energy. So, you know we had conversations around, is that really worth your time? And what value will you get from that debate and that argument? Is it something that you can walk away from and be happy that you walked away from it? And I think that's an interesting thing because even now doing what I do, there are conversations that are challenging, and it's picking that moment to have it, and there are conversations where someone's viewpoints are going to be starkly different from mine or where they think we should be going, and how do we come to that place of understanding? So, I think my family and my parents play into all of that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 9:25
Yeah. And it is, you're completely right. These are challenging conversations you typically have when you're working in DEI, even in your position as well, working internally within Burberry now, but previously with Dr. Martens, and previously with Thomson Reuters, there are these types of conversations you typically have with leaders within those organisations. And how do you know when the best thing for the organisation could be to go the way that you would like to take them when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion? If you have leaders that aren't willing to step into that with you and to lead that, it can't just be led by you, there needs to be that collective engagement, how do you do that? How do you know when to keep fighting, when to keep pushing, and when to keep asserting your view when the organisation is not ready?
Geoffrey Williams 10:10
It’s an interesting one. I think that's a very good question. I think it's a cycle because you know your big D&I vision, you know you want to create an organisation that has respect, has tolerance, has true inclusion, has a diversity that is respected, and where it feels like they're connected to the organisation. And so, you know that you're working towards that, and the business knows that you're working towards that as well, but then everyone has their personal passion points, and this conversation often is looked at from a very personal viewpoint. So, it's not really looked at as a business driver or part of a business conversation, it's looked at as I care about gender, I care about race, I care about disability because my child has a disability. And you have to kind of encourage leaders to kind of go outside of the scope of their own personal passion. So, I think sometimes it's that conversation of getting to understand where leaders you work with, where they currently sit in the conversation, what things can you dial up for them in a sense of research, insights, and books, and are there external speakers that you can bring in to help them reflect? And then also kind of understanding that everyone moves at a different pace. So, sometimes when you say something, and you realise, actually, that's going too fast, it's just about taking a step back and saying, okay, let's take myself out of this conversation because I know where I want to end up, I know what I want to create, but this isn't where this individual is, and they do play a part in your own personal career, and also the wider business. So, maybe take a step back, dial it back a bit, and go a different route. And I think that's the kind of adaptation that you need to take while doing this work.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:47
Yeah, what you've just named is the interdependency on all those leaders in terms of you successfully being able to implement that big DEI strategy vision that you have, that you want for the organisation, but also need from a DEI professional, the skill of being able to dial up your people radar, understand how people are feeling, where people are at, and meeting people where they need you to be.
Geoffrey Williams 12:13
Yeah. And that's not always easy, because I think there's been a D&I professional boom. A lot of folks are getting into D&I because of what happened to Sarah Everard, and because of what happened to George Floyd. And even though it’s important to want to fight that fight, it's a slightly different conversation, because that's kind of like the geopolitical landscape, what's happening in the world. When you go into an organisation and you're doing D&I, you are doing D&I for profit, you're doing D&I to help the business make money, to help the business be relevant. And I think sometimes we are having a multitude of conversations that don't always connect. So, I think that's always kind of spinning the wheel of people that come into your team, and they've kind of got their passions, getting them to think in this way, that it is a journey. It is kind of just like sliding along and going, we know what our big vision is, but a lot of these conversations have been in existence for 200 years. The conversation around gender equality has been going on for about 150 years, let's say that we have another 300 years until we reach parity, this is not something that's going to change overnight. It's a journey.
Nadia Nagamootoo 13:18
Never thought about it that way before that people are coming with their own passion. They're entering the DEI space wanting to solve a big systemic issue, and ultimately, when they're being paid by an organisation that is for profit or any organisation, they’re being paid to do it for the purpose of helping that organisation achieve its organisational goals and vision. So, I love how you as a DEI professional within an organisation, leading a team, I suppose connect with those passions to get the best from those people, but at the same time take them on the bigger picture, the journey of what the organisation needs. Thank you for sharing that. So, I'd love to talk to you about a particular passion of yours, which is the next generation. So, I know, and I've looked at Rocking Ur Teens, which is a fantastic organisation. And I'd love to know what inspired you to set it up if you could just explain a little bit more about what it is, and why you co-found it. What are the needs that Rocking Ur Teens offers?
Geoffrey Williams 14:21
Rocking Ur Teens was born out of really a conversation with one of the co-founders, Jenny Garrett, OBE, and I met her through our other co-founder, Sandy Parris, who basically runs an events company and Jenny had spoken at one of Sandy's events. Jenny was talking about being a female breadwinner, and I just thought it was fascinating. I had just gotten into D&I at the time, and I was just kind of fascinated by her conversation and what she was sharing. And then I happened to bump into her at an event and kind of asked her how her book tour was going, and she kind of asked me what I was up to, and I said I'd just taken on D&I at Thomson Reuters. And she said I'm looking for someone to host an idea that I have. And I was like, cool, let me know what your idea is, and she kind of presented this wonderful event for young girls to help them think about their careers, but also not dumbing themselves down as they start to think about their GCSEs and A levels. And I kind of said to her, this is great, it's a great idea, but why are you only doing one? And why aren't we including young boys in the conversation? Because when we talk about gender parity, gender equity, if we don't tell the boys the same thing that we're telling the girls, we're always going to have that imbalance because the conversation will always be, well, as a girl I've been told that I can do anything, and as a boy, I was told something nefarious, possibly not so great. And so, we're having these two different conversations, how do we create a unified message that we're giving to these young people? So, from that, Rocking Ur Teens was born, and I guess the overarching mission premise of what we're doing is working with schools and young people to really get them to think about their career aspirations. So, I don't know what your career aspiration was like, mine was in a survey, you'll be a librarian or a performer. Don’t know how it’ll work.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:06
Very similar. There was an online survey at the time, which was seemingly quite sophisticated. Obviously, in our day and age now, we'd look back at what I filled out in the 90s, and I'm sure we'd be laughing, but I answered all these questions in terms of what I enjoyed, what I didn't, and then it just churned out a job, which I looked at and thought, really? I'm not sure.
Geoffrey Williams 16:26
I said mine was a librarian or performer. I had done both roles oddly enough, but it was like a funny moment when it churned out. And I think it is about what your parents tell you is the career path you should be going on. So, we have real people talking about their real career journeys from education to what they're doing now, we have people that have been extremely successful and very academic. We've had people that are not very academic but have still been very successful in their chosen journey, and we've had people that have talked about their learnings and their failures. I think one of the most powerful moments for me was when we had one speaker whose opening line was when I was 14, I decided to become pregnant. Now, she's extremely successful in what she does now, but she kind of went on a journey of being a parent at that young age, and all the things she didn't have to reflect on and do differently than her peers because she was a parent.
So, we have those kinds of individuals talking about their careers and their journeys, we also talk about mental health and how people are feeling and how they share their emotions. I think the most important part is kind of connecting it to them being transparent on how they talk to the other adults around them about it, but also how they then kind of influence themselves to change society. So, that's kind of Rocking Ur Teens in a nutshell, we do that via key events. So, we do a conference for International Women's Day and International Men's Day, and we're just about to launch our first-ever mentoring programme in partnership with Dr. Martens, so, we're really excited. And the programme basically is a 6-month programme, where we'll use our network to bring in different individuals to mentor a group of young people and get them again to think about their careers, their mental well-being, and that kind of conversation. But also, within it, we're going to do quick 30-minute workshops where we talk about different subjects. So, how are you going to manage your career? How do you learn about different industries? How do you kind of empower yourself to show up in different ways, and kind of get people to do that as well? So, it’s kind of a hybrid 30-minute webinar plus some time where they are being mentored as well. So, yeah, I am very excited about that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 18:23
That's incredible. So, there is a lot in the news, and when we look at the statistics, there's a concerning figure around the mental health of these young teenagers today. I don't think COVID particularly helped, of course, and that's concerning for me as a mother. I don't have teenage kids yet, but I've been told you blink and then you do all of a sudden. So, what do you see that has changed in society that leads to Rocking Ur Teens being so essential for teenagers in order to understand where they're heading and to understand how to express their emotions, and how to manage their mental health? What's going on at a societal level that is so important for these teenagers to get access to?
Geoffrey Williams 19:10
I think it's a combination of things. I think technology moves so fast, there are things that are going on in the technological space that we as adults have no clue of, and young people are using it sometimes in ways that are not good for their mental health. I think there's a lot of things around body image and Instagram lifestyles and so forth that people put out there, that then get people worried that actually, I need to show up and you know as a boy, I need to have a 6 pack, as a girl I need to have a big chest, whatever it is. All those kinds of messages have been sent, and then there's no real understanding of what work is. And I think when I was younger, I think the outreach that was done by different organisations was completely different. They probably had teams that just primarily went into schools and talked to young people, and now, they don’t really have that in place. I think we're kind of filling that gap of connecting the schools to organisations, kind of getting people to understand what careers are because again, you only know what your parents tell you.
If your parents are especially from communities of colour, they typically say, ‘hey, you need to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant’. And like my grandmother, she'd always be like, what are you doing? What do you mean you work with people? That's not a job. I'd also be like no, I'm doing something really important Granny. And she's like, no, where are you in the world now? And I’ll be like, I'm in New York, I'm doing a digital conference. You know, you should have been an accountant, at least I know what that is. So, I think there's that kind of dialogue as well that happens within families. And I think, as more people are saying, hey, we want to get more people into creative sectors, we want to have more people enter the law profession, what is the reality of it? And hearing from people that have done it, and also, people that have done it and left it and said, oh, actually, I did it, and I thought that's what I wanted to do, but I realised that wasn't the journey that I wanted to go on, because actually being a lawyer in LA Law or being a policeman, or The Bill is not what I want. What's the reality of it all? And I think that's the important part because it does get lost sometimes.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:14
Yeah, you definitely showed your age there with those two programmes.
Geoffrey Williams 21:18
I know, LA Law and The Bill.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:23
Don't worry, I'm with you. So, what I'm interested in is to bring it back to the workplace, thinking about all that knowledge and information insight that you gain from Rocking Ur Teens, that connection with the current teenage population, what is it that organisations should be thinking of if you're thinking about the future of the workplace, and what they need to do now to set the organisation up to be appealing, to be attractive to the teenagers of today? What advice do you have?
Geoffrey Williams 21:56
So, I was actually talking to a friend about this the other day, because I am currently recruiting for a couple of roles in my team, and I think the thing that I'm finding fascinating is the conversation around values that I'm having with a lot of the applicants, and also the conversation around work commitment, or I guess, managing of time. Am I going to be expected to have to respond to your email at midnight? Obviously, the answer is no. But there is that kind of conversation going on. I think, also, when you look at LGBT+ representation, 47% of Gen Z have said that they don't identify as straight. So, as you're looking at your organisation, I think there's a conversation about what policies and practices do you have in place to truly accept people from different walks of life? How are you managing and truly embedding your values? So, when you have that brilliant jerk working for you, what are you doing to get that person to understand that they're brilliant at their day job, but they're really bad at the people part? And how do you get them to reflect on that and change that? Because I think a lot of the next generation are kind of looking at those things and saying, actually, I wouldn't want to work in an organisation where I've been told the culture is toxic, but if I go there, it's really great for my career.
And I think honestly, I think people are making decisions, actually, I'll go in for a short time. So, I'll go and do it for two years, make some really good money, and then start my own thing. I think also, you are fighting with the fact that people can be entrepreneurs a lot quicker. People can decide to go and talk about what they're passionate about on YouTube, Instagram, on TikTok, and never set foot a day in an organisation, but make a lot of really great money and live their best life. And I think the people that have that foresight to go and do something like that, are the smart individuals that you want in your organisation, but they're going to opt-out. So, how do you kind of encourage them to consider once they've had that YouTube success, or that kind of tech boom career, that they bring some of that knowledge back into your organisation? I think also, I was reading this article on some research that Google did around management, and they'd stripped out all of their managers at one point, I think for about 3 months, and they realised that they needed them. And they then kind of pointed out these, and I think that's an important part of what organisations need to consider to attract, retain and develop people that come into their organisation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:29
Yeah. I think you're spot on there, and what you said earlier around how you can have a brilliant mind, someone who's exceptional at what they do, but they don't have a people mindset, they can't engage, they don't want to be open-minded and understand someone else's perspective. So, I get it from an organisational perspective, you could from this point onwards start recruiting on the basis of inclusive leadership and seeing that in people, but my question to you then is, if you've inherited a leadership team and you're not seeing it fully in them, what is then the repercussions? What are the consequences? And what is your role as an internal DEI professional if you're seeing that? How do you get them to where you need them to be?
Geoffrey Williams 25:20
So, I think over the years, what I've found is that it's about having that conversation to get them to reflect on what they need. And I think it's also about getting them to reflect on that. Obviously, for our age, there's the conversation of paying your dues. So, you go somewhere and you pay your dues. And paying your dues could be when I was in music, working for free for a very long period of time, and doing crazy hours, but that's you paying your dues. And then when you get your seat in power, you now get someone else to pay their dues. And I think culturally, we have to stop doing that. So, I think getting those leaders to reflect on actually, did you enjoy the fact that you had to pay your dues? Whatever industry it is, that exists. So, did you enjoy that piece of having to pay your dues? Then also, what do you think will happen if you actually manage your people in a way that they respect you, that they look up to you, and follow your vision? We want to have high-performing teams, we want to have trust, and that's what you're here to build. So, I kind of have that kind of conversation with them.
Where necessary, it’s kind of taking the statistics and kind of saying, how much money are you spending every time you have to recruit a new person into your team because someone's gone and the knowledge that walks out the door with those individuals? So, kind of taking it back to their own personal budgets and what they're responsible for. I kind of also say to them, if you've been honest, you took on this leadership role because you wanted power and you wanted more money, but you didn't realise that you had to now be responsible for someone's life, really, because you're making sure that people are paid. So, how do you want to flip that and change that? It's quite funny. So, some people will buy into it, and they’re like, yeah, we get that Geoffrey, okay, I'm going to try and do better, what else should I be doing? Let me work with my HRBP, let me work with my team, let's do some stuff to kind of reflect on it. And there were a lot of people are like, no, that’s not for me, I'll do what I've always done. And then I think it's then not my role to do anything, it's then obviously the wider HR function and their boss to decide whether that's a person that they need in the organisation, regardless of the financial return that they might be bringing in, we could build someone up who's equally as great, but better at the people piece.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:21
Yeah. So, what I'm hearing there is that the organisation needs to be prepared to make some tough decisions and have some hard lines at a certain point, especially after you've tried to encourage a leader to open up their perspectives, their views, and embrace the people side of their role, and they're not willing to go there. I know that you speak about this as well, but that role as a leader, what is it? How do you create an inclusive leader?
Geoffrey Williams 27:51
If someone's celebrated for being a good leader, people will mirror that. However, if your organisation doesn't embrace that leadership and what it means, then you're always going to struggle, because people are going to be like, well, you know, I'd love to be really great at managing people, but I just don't have the time, there are other pressing needs. I think it comes down to the culture that your organisation is trying to create, where you're creating those moments to really think about what good leadership is. And I've worked with a number of organisations that have people goals, where it looks at what their day-to-day job is, and their leadership role, and how the leadership role is connecting back to bits of their work that create money, but also develop their people. And how are you empowering them to be a part of BRGs or ERGs, their internal employee groups? How are you letting them use their voice? How are you getting innovation from them? How you are making sure that you're aligning to the company's sustainability goals and bringing that all together to define what we want our people leaders to show up as. And I think more organisations need to take those kinds of steps, so that you are then physically rewarding people, but also encouraging them to reflect on that every year as they go into their end-of-year process.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:06
So, coming back then to metrics, being clear on some of the tangible things that you want to see in your leader from an organisational perspective, measuring them, and holding them accountable.
Geoffrey Williams 29:17
Yeah, definitely. Because I feel like that's the piece, we don't always hold people accountable, we just go oh, well, it'd be nice if he did that. Oh, gosh, I haven’t got time. And then it doesn't happen.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:30
Especially at that level of the organisation, right? You've got Chief Executive and the C-Suite, at that level holding them accountable to their KPIs or what's in their performance.
Geoffrey Williams 29:40
I always find that at that level, they are great leaders, that’s how they got to that level, and they actually do it quite inherently. I think where you find the challenge is the sticky middle. And I would say it's because they're responsible for the people below them, but then they also have the people above them pushing things down, and it becomes this challenge of, what do I do? Because I've got to achieve this thing that looks up, but I've also got to manage these people, that kind of works it’s way down into the organisation and, aahh I can't do this, I'm just going to micromanage here and manage up, and yep that works for me. And I think that's where you see the challenge around the culture. I don't think it's the leadership, maybe I've worked for fantastic organisations, but I found that the leaders, at that level they get it, they know what they're meant to be doing, and they try to do it with all the multitude of things going on. But it's then that the middle that kind of permafrost, then that becomes a challenge.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:37
Do you have a leader in mind that you've come across that you feel particularly embodies those qualities that you've just outlined, and the authentic allyship well?
Geoffrey Williams 30:48
I'm going to go with a gentleman called Peter Warwick, who was the Chief People Officer at Thomson Reuters. He definitely embodied this in his way of being, he truly listened to the people in his team, and he listened to the wider organisation. And I think where we were on in the D&I journey, that was a lot to do with his vision and his tenacity to push us to take things to the board to ask questions, to reflect, and to look at our data and utilise our data to tell stories. And then also, to some of that, we did quite a lot of work around race and representation within the organisation at the time. And that was him saying, actually, we need to do better, we need to understand why we're facing these challenges. How do we create a better pipeline? And so, I think yeah, Mr. Peter Warwick.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:40
All right. Well, if you're listening, Peter, I'm a big fan of yours already. Thank you. I'm thinking then because you mentioned Thomson Reuters there, and obviously, we've already spoken, you worked at Dr. Martens, and obviously, now you're at Burberry. So, I'm interested, given these big organisations that you've worked for, have there been any key themes of the challenges across those organisations that you've come across, from a DEI perspective?
Geoffrey Williams 32:07
I think the challenge is always this thing of D&I. So, diversity, equity, and inclusion as a conversation is complex. And a lot of the time, we are having quite personal conversations around D&I. So, when I have a one-on-one conversation with someone, it's about their personal viewpoint and sentiment around the conversation. So, it might be as a woman, I care about women and people that are neurodiverse because my son is neurodiverse. It's just people caring about their own personal stuff, so how can they make a change that then impacts their kids or their young, or someone in their family coming into the work environment?
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:49
Yeah, I hear that all the time with senior leaders, particularly male sponsors when it comes to gender.
Geoffrey Williams 32:54
They are like, my daughter is about to go into the workforce, and I kind of always challenge them and say, like, that's lovely that your daughter's coming to the workforce, but how do you think this aligns to the business and to the financial outcomes of this organisation? And that's where we need to focus. So, I think we're having these very personal conversations around family and friends and the people they connect to. And the challenge is that we all live in a bubble, so, we are bubble bound by who we know, and who we interact with. So sometimes when you then try and talk about racial difference, or LGBT inclusion or disability, if you don't have someone that's going to come and sit at your breakfast table and have a conversation with you about their feelings and emotions, you're just not connected. However, doing this work well, the conversation that we are having is truly about the performance and the culture of your organisation, the things that you want to put out into the marketplace, the people that you want to attract into the organisation, the values that you want to uphold, and how do you kind of build this holistic narrative that is about belonging, respect, and acceptance? But it's that piece of, how do you create that?
And I think that was a challenge going into organisations and doing D&I work, you have to kind of uncover people's personal play pits, where they want to play, and then how do you push them out of that bubble and introduce them to different topics and conversations that are connected to their bubble, but kind of expand it a bit? Because that's the challenge, it's kind of like, hey, I’m bubble bound to what I know. And as well sometimes, D&I work done well is challenging what your mom, your dad, and your grandparents told you. And that's uncomfortable because you believe those people with all your heart, they are your NorthStar most of the time, you said to me, earlier on, what have your parents taught you? That's what they taught me. So then if you're going to turn around and tell me, hey, what your mom and dad said isn't the truth, it's a little bit dicey. So, you're having that conversation as well within this work, and then people have to unpick it. It’s a little bit like therapy. So, I think those are the things that go into any organisation you will see, and in doing this work, you have to really think about how you kind of navigate and unpick all that, and get to a place where actually the conversation of diversity, equity, and inclusion is about the best performance just like your human capital conversations, your financial forecasting, all those pieces, it's all connected.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:24
Yeah. So, there's a lot basically, when you first start an organisation, particularly like a big global corporate, there's a lot to absorb, isn't there? There's a lot of what seems to me, as sensing where people are at, talking to people, and having a lot of conversations.
Geoffrey Williams 35:41
Yeah. A ton of relationship building, lots of knocking on doors, and lots of listening to understand, not just to talk or to answer or to give your viewpoint. I think also, listening to understand the visual cues as well. Because sometimes, people say one thing, but their body tells you another thing, and you have to look for those as well. So, you have to look for someone who says, I care about this, but their body language is saying this conversation is making me really uncomfortable. And then you have to kind of go, you know something, it's okay for you not to get this, and for you not to feel like you understand it fully, but let's think about how we build this dynamic where we can work together to help you move forward. So, I will say to everyone doing this work, it's complex, it's hard, it's not easy, it's not something that I'd say to everybody to go and do. I remember being on a panel and someone said to me, oh, you know, what's the one bit of advice that you'd give to a D&I professional? And I was like, manage your mental health, and everyone in the audience laughed, and this is before, I guess George Floyd’s murder, everyone kind of chuckled and it's like, that’s a funny response. And I was like, no, seriously, literally, you hear so much, you hear the good, the bad, the ugly about the organisation that you're working for, and you then are in a position where you are challenged to help change it. And sometimes you can't change that thing, so, you hear things and you’re like, oh man, I'd love to be able to wave my magic wand and make that not happen, but it's not always the reality or the possibility, or right then and there. Then you have to kind of store it up and keep it as an anecdote for another moment where it's like, aha, okay, so you say that that doesn't happen, however, on this day at this moment, this person shared this story with me, and this is the reality within our organisation, what can we do to change it? And then you're able to shift things and move things forward.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:28
And that's hard-hitting, isn't it? It's hard to hear that as a leader in your organisation where you want to believe that this stuff doesn't happen here, it happens over there, typically pointing to America or something, right? And so, as a DEI professional, being able to be sensitive to that because it's such a deep regret that it doesn't happen here. They want to believe that they've done everything they possibly can, how could it be possible that in our organisation, we're not living by these clear values of respect, diversity, and being inclusive? But what I hear time and time again is that, unless organisations are being very overt and very clear about what it is they want to achieve when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion, it's not going to happen by default.
Geoffrey Williams 38:17
And I think doing it globally, you're talking about the Asia perspective, and what that means, and how it shows up in India, how it shows up in China, how it shows up in Japan, how it shows up in Korea, and the nuance there, and the fact that you'll go in and say, hey, we should be doing this and this subject. And they're like, we don't have that problem here. And it's like you do, but it's nuanced, and it shows up in this way. So, I think when you’re doing D&I on a global scale, you're having a multitude of conversations, because people then talk about how gender inequality doesn't exist in Asia, because of the cultural setup, women are responsible for the family and the men go to work. And then it's like, well, actually, that is inequality, isn't it? Because we want everyone to be able to have the option to go to work if they want to. Now, I'm not saying that you need to change your culture, and I'm not saying that my western view of your culture is to denounce it or to say that it's wrong. But I guess when we're talking about our working environment, and what happens between the four walls of our organisation, there is a similarity between the conversation that we're having here in the West and what happens in the East. And sometimes that is a bit of a moment, where they say okay, let's think of what we can do.
Again, as I said, I'm not trying to tell you that what you're doing is wrong, I'm just asking you to reflect on the access and the opportunities that people have that come from different genders and backgrounds coming into the organisation in that region. It is the same thing when something happens in the US and everyone’s like oh, that’s actually a US thing, even at the top of 2020 when George Floyd was murdered, and I remember speaking to people and them saying, oh, but that's such an American thing, we don't have that here. And then obviously, when everyone starts protesting, why are they protesting? Because we do have that here. It's not as inherent, there are no guns, so it happens in a slightly different way, but it does exist and the conversation is pretty much the same because it's all rooted in the same history. But we disconnect ourselves from it sometimes, and I think that's a challenge that we then have to undo. And it goes back to my earlier point of, we're having conversations around what your family told you, don't talk about race, we don't see colour in our family, but you do because you're not colour blind. So, you do see someone's difference, and it's fine to accept that and it's fine to see it, it's not fine if you're going to treat them differently or hinder their career progression based on it, but you can see it, celebrate it, recognise it, and use it to your advantage within your team if need be.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:34
I love that. I love that. And you've so clearly said, some of the challenges in walking the fine line as a global organisation is not pushing Western values and culture onto the local culture, but actually acknowledging what we're trying to create here, which is equity and opportunities for all. I really like that. I could talk to you for ages, Geoffrey. I think we've only touched and skimmed the surface of what I actually wanted to ask you, but I've loved speaking to you. Anything that you would like to say just in the last couple of minutes, what do you think organisations should be or need to be focusing on now because it's imminent in order for survival t from a DEI perspective?
Geoffrey Williams 41:19
Gosh, so many things, we all need to figure out what hybrid means. So, in the office or when we are not in the office, how do we include and bring people together, what does that truly looks like? From a D&I standpoint, we need to figure out how we really retain talent, how we look at what talent is, and how we evolve the conversation. Because again, I think people, the next generation are walking into organisations with an expectation of how their career will be and the freedoms they will have to navigate the space. And I think there's a piece of us really understanding that the world shifted in 2020, and what we used to do is now not fit for purpose, and that kind of connection to your culture, to belonging, to inclusion, to representation is paramount. And that has to be one of the central themes within your organisation, for it to stay relevant and connected. And I think you need to see that represented at the top of the organisation, but also those coming into the business.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:23
I totally agree. And, Geoffrey, it's wonderful to have you on the show.
Geoffrey Williams 42:28
Thank you for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:29
Oh, you're welcome. If people want to connect with you, which way is best? Are you on any social channels?
Geoffrey Williams 42:37
I am. So, I am on Twitter and Instagram as @GWentertainment. I'm on LinkedIn as Geoffrey O. Williams or you can go follow me on my website geoffreyowilliams.com.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:52
Amazing. Well, all the links to everything that Geoffrey has mentioned on the show, and to his social channels will be on the show notes page of the avenirconsultingservices.com website under podcasts. Thank you, Geoffrey, over and over again. Thank you so much for sharing everything today.
Geoffrey Williams 43:10
Thank you for having me. Have a great rest of your day.
Nadia Nagamootoo 43:12
That concludes episode 24 of the Why Care Podcast. Those parting words around the key challenges faced by many organisations ring true for me. I so often hear comments of denial and wanting to believe the world has moved on. And yet, so many of the same DEI issues are still present and experienced every day. Do let Geoffrey and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @NadiaNagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji, for editing this podcast, and Jon Rice for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
