Why care? #4: Yash Puri – Visible Fathering
“People would say ‘oh I heard you’re going on a long holiday?’ and I’m like, ‘No, no, no I’m not going on a long holiday!’ And that’s what people think it is - 3 months of fun! It’s not fun – it’s amazing, but it’s challenging”
Yash Puri has been working in the financial sector for 20 years and was one of the under 2% of entitled fathers, who decided to take 3 months of shared parental leave with his second child. He was featured in the widely shared BBC article “Millennial men demand better parental leave” and has since then founded the blog and networking site Papa Penguin, where he shares many other stories of other dads taking an active role in raising their children and the impact on mother’s lives.
In this episode Yash shares his story on how he was a pioneer in his company to make use of the UK shared parental leave policy introduced in 2015 and how his organisation reacted to it. Yash likes to make a point that his active and visible role as a father should not be considered remarkable and refuses to be called a role model. He gives us insights into what is unique about millennial fathers and sheds light on the special circumstances and social expectations in the Asian community.
Together we explore what organisations can do to enable fathers to actively embrace caring for their children because, as Yash puts it, “Before you know it, they are not going to need you anymore.” I very much share his dream that one day the topic of gender division in parenting roles will hopefully not be a conversation for our children anymore.
Show links:
Papa Penguin Blog: https://papapenguin.org/blog/
Yash Puri on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yashpuri/
Follow Yash on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/papapenguinblog/
Transcript
Yash Puri 00:00
There's an unconscious bias. A starting point is if a mom gets pregnant, people will say, best of luck and have a great maternity leave, and they get it right, it’s a full-time mom looking after the child. If a father said that, I'm going to sit back in the office again, if they said anything above and beyond that, I think people will say, and I've heard in the office, and I've heard from other people as well, that, you're going on long leave, you’re going to have fun.
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:22
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection.
Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode four of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. Why aren’t more men taking shared parental leave? Why do some men feel it's risky to take it? What challenges do millennial fathers face compared to the generations before them and why?
These questions and many more will be answered on today's podcast when I speak to my guest on the show, Yash Puri. He's a partner in a multinational tech company, and whilst he may try to deny it, he is a role model since taking shared parental leave and featuring in the BBC News article, ‘millennial men demand better parental leave’. This led to him setting up the blog site Papa Penguin, where men and women share their stories and experience of active fathering, the barriers, the challenges, and the rewards. We talk about his experience of shared parental leave and the impact on his life. We also talk about the concept of masculinity and the societal pressures that men still face to be the breadwinner. Finally, Yash Puri explains what organisations need to do in order to accelerate progress toward men embracing their caring responsibilities. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
So, Yash, welcome to the Why Care Podcast, so good to meet you.
Yash Puri 03:08
Thank you so much, Nadia, really glad to be part of this, it is exciting.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:10
It is exciting and I'm super excited about our conversation. Last time we spoke, you were talking to me from a sports centre, whilst your children were at a swimming lesson. So where are you today?
Yash Puri 03:18
I'm sitting in my home office away from any noise so we can get crisp quality audio.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:26
Very sensible. Okay, so no splashing in the background. I feel like you've been on a fast lane, almost since you took shared parental leave, and then were quite vocal about it. This was after the birth of your second child, I believe, and then the BBC asked you to speak and all of a sudden, you've got this, I'm calling it a rapid rise to fame. That might not be something that resonates with you but that's how I see it.
Yash Puri 03:56
No, we were slightly famous. It was my five minutes of fame and I had to do something with it. But no, you're right. This whole thing just happened out of nowhere. I had no idea what shared parental leave was, up until probably 9 or 10 weeks before me taking it. So, with my first, it was very standard, I did my two weeks standard leave and went back into the office. My wife was away for the full 12 months, looking after my daughter and I felt like I missed a lot of her growing-up time. I just was too busy with work and I just felt like, in my mind, I kind of had a new job and I wanted to deliver on that, I didn't want to let my employee down. And for me, it was very work, work, work, and that's my focus, at the same time stressing out about the new dynamic in the family with my daughter. And when my daughter got older, my wife said to me with our second, you must think about taking some time out and I said yeah, I'll do that, don't worry.
And she mentioned to me you should take shared parental leave, and I said what is that? And she says that it is a policy you want to see, where you can share your leave with yourself. So, I started googling it to do some research and I know Nick Clegg and David Cameron as part of the coalition got back in 2015, yeah, put this policy out there, I read up my HR policy but it was not communicated to me at all. I read the policy myself, gave it to my wife, and she goes, Yeah, you know, you’ve got to give eight weeks of warning, and you can just crack on with it, and the rest is kind of history.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:16
I'm curious, your story resonates with me, when we had our baby girl, just in the lead-up, we had the same conversation, my husband and I. And one of the conversations we had, was that he did take shared parental leave in the end, but he was hesitating, because firstly, it wasn't what was done in his organisation at the time, so he would be setting precedents for it. Secondly, he wasn't sure how KPIs would be managed, because he'd be the first one to broach it. Would they take into account the fact that he spent two months out of the organisation? How would that impact his bonus? So the financial aspect? It was all of those sorts of conversations, was that something that you also considered before you decided to take it?
Yash Puri 05:51
Absolutely, because it would be a financial impact, because it'd be three months unpaid. And then also, in terms of the bonus cycle, how's that impacted? In a way, I did care about it, in another way, I thought it is what it is, I'm not going to focus too much on that. I want to make sure that my company is supportive, I've made the decision and I'm going to do it. Now, that was a driving force. And either way, I went to my boss who was fantastic, he turned it around quickly, and HR, they were fantastic as well. I was so nervous, I actually went with two options, I said, Hey, boss, I'm thinking about taking shared parental leave. However, I want to do the best thing for the organisation, so I'm going to give you two options, I either take shared parental leave, which is required, and I can just take it and give you eight weeks’ warning, and off I go for three months, or what we could do, I could take parental leave, which I know through my research, every parent can take four weeks, up until the child is 18 years old, or 16 years old, one or the other. I've got two children, therefore, I could take theoretically unpaid leave over the eight weeks, but it just gives you guys a bit of flexibility in terms of when you want me to take it because if I take shared parental leave, I have to take it before my son turns one.
If you think the business drivers are better for me to take the leave post my son turns one, without the parental leave part, let me know. And I think he was quite happy about me really thinking about it. And he went away and came back as well to speak to his boss and said, Look, Yash we'd rather you take shared parental leave, do it sooner rather than later. Actually, from a business perspective, it makes sense for you to back October and beyond, because we need you around in terms of business requirements. So go ahead and just do it. And after that, it just kind of happened, there I was off I went, people at the office said, oh I heard you going on a long holiday, I’m like no, I’m not going on a long holiday. And that's when people say that three months it's fun. It's not fun. It's amazing but it's challenging, because…
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:50
Parenting is challenging, right? And it's not a break. It's not a holiday. And what's interesting is, do you think that women would get the same comments when they're about to go off on maternity leave? You're about to go on a long holiday? Or do you think it's just comments that men typically get if they're taking shared parental leave or timeout?
Yash Puri 08:06
I think that's what men get. There is an unconscious bias, a starting point is Okay, a mom gets pregnant and they say, best of luck and have your great maternity leave. And they get it right, it is a full-time mom looking after the child. If a father says that, if they said anything above and beyond that, I think people will say, and I've heard in the office, and I've heard from other people as well, you're going to take a long leave, you're going to have fun playing golf and going to the pub. I'm serious, that's the perception, it's bizarre, and even when I got back from my shared parental leave, people didn't say to me how was your shared parental leave, other than HR and my boss, who knew exactly what I did. My peers and the younger generation haven't got kids here and they’re far from it. How was your holiday? How was your trip to America? Well, it must have been an amazing three months in America. I’m like it wasn't three months just travelling, don't worry about it, guys, you know what, that’s for another day but it's that perception that I’ve been away for three months, and I didn't have the energy to explain what I've been doing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:06
Wow. And tell me because you’re senior, you’re a partner actually in your company, I guess I'm interested in whether you think that it was easier or harder for you to take time out, given your position.
Yash Puri 09:19
The way it happened for me was very easy, whether because of my position or not, I don't think it's got anything to do with a position. No, I think the organisation I work with is very forward thinking and it's very supportive. The Group President of the organisation I work for is very supportive and, you know, he said, I'm fully supportive of Yash. So, I think it’s great he's doing it, and he should be a role model. And if someone senior is doing it in the organisation that sends a message to everyone who's low in the organisation and in terms of hierarchy, that actually, we can do this because this guy has done it. So why can't I? And then it's amazing when I got back in the office, there were a few other people who came to me saying can you walk me through the policy Yash, I’m not quite sure, I love it and it's amazing you did that. And outside of work, people are saying, it's great. How did you work and managed it, you must be so busy, you must come back to like a nightmare of activities or work, and you must be really stressed out now. I'm like, No, I've actually come back to the organisation with further opportunities, I came back and my role had kind of evolved while I was away and I kind of got a promotion when I was out for three months. So, I came back to a more senior role.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:26
Did you?
Yash Puri 10:27
Yeah. So, I came back to a more senior role and the boss sat me down and said, Look, in this role, the status quo slightly evolved, or whatever, we will make you the head of the region, a broader remit. What do you think? I’m like yeah, give it to me, I’m ready for it, I’ve had three months out and I'm really ready for that next challenge. So, I came back to a senior position from where I left.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:49
Wow, that's really what's fascinating. You said a lot of things that are fascinating to me but just closing down on that policy, because you mentioned it a couple of times. Now, when you were looking at what you could do or how your organisation supported in terms of the policy and also other men then afterward coming up to you saying, could you give them a hand and figure out what this policy is actually allowing you to do. I've heard a number of times that the policy often isn't clear, it's there but actually, it's not explicit. The organisations doesn't actually say, look, everyone, this is it, you're about to have a baby, congratulations, here is page five of the whatever policy, please have a read of it because it might be something you would be interested in. I don't know whether organisations do that. It sounds like your organisation may not have proactively explained what the policy is and how. What are the issues with policies with regard to shared parental leave?
Yash Puri 11:38
I think the policy point is applicable to all organisations. I think that the challenge is if this policy is for everything, what do you focus on? And what do you communicate? So, I think organisations and my organisation do a good job in terms of making quite clear in terms of where policies are, and it's down to the individual to go and read about it. Now there are whiteboards in terms of what you can do, I guess it's down to where your focus is at that point in time, you may want to read about a particular policy in your life, which is more applicable. Now shared parental leave isn't applicable to everyone. Right? Yeah. So, I think it's all there and I think the organizations do a good job in terms of making sure it's there. The challenges they've got is in how they communicate the right thing to the right audience without bombarding people with everything and anything because I wouldn't want to be bombarded with stuff or educated about stuff, which is not applicable to me, and I think that's the challenge. I think the challenge is how do you communicate this effectively, and raise awareness.
Now, I think we can’t put the blame on the employers, I think, what's happened, especially since 2015, I just don't think we as humans, are talking about it as much. I don't think the blame is purely on the organisations, I think they can do better in terms of thinking about more creative ways of getting the message out but I think we've all got to play a role in this to make sure the message is out there. So then if you are aware of the policy, you know where you need to go to. So, I think what's happened as this new legislation of shared parental leave came in 2015, I think what's happened in the past, the culture and the lack of knowledge amongst managers and HR personnel, has really halted the growth of shared parental leave because I think it's been so new to everyone. No one's really championing that message because they're trying to work out what that actually means. The University of Birmingham conducted some research in terms of the uptake of shared parental leave.
Now I think we keep reading about, oh, it's so poor 2% since 2015, okay, if we look at the latest stats, if you look at the financial year of 2018 to 2019, it has increased by 11,000 applicants. So, the numbers are increasing and it's increasing because we're now in 2020, it’s five years after the policy was put in place. You look at LinkedIn on a daily basis, I'm seeing organisations reacting to it saying, hey, we’re enhancing our shared parental leave, we're enhancing our maternity leave, and I'm reading about it every day. That is because I'm on LinkedIn…
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:03
That’s exactly what I think. How biased is my LinkedIn stream now because I work in this space where we are both interested in, we work in this space, I'm never sure how much of a skewed picture of the world I have.
Yash Puri 14:17
Exactly I’m not sure either. So, I guess I'm hearing more now in my organisation and others that actually, there’s been more talk about it, and people are becoming more aware. So I went to the women's networking organisation, I was a guest, I spoke about my shared parental leave experience, I talked about the benefit to my wife, I talked about the benefit to my children and I talked about the benefit to me. There are men sitting in that room, do you know what, if I got the message to five men, they're going to go and talk to five other men. It's a network and the news spreads out. Hey, do you know about the story? This guy Yash and the shared parental leave he took, no, no, what is it? This is what it is, you know, we can also take it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:58
I guess I'm still baffled by how a policy that can only benefit families, men, women, and children, how a policy like shared parental leave, which has been around for five years now, how we're still fascinated by the people who are taking it. James Miller, I read the piece from working dads and when he interviewed you, he was like, oh, you know, you're a role model by simply taking shared parental leave. I get it and I also believe you are too but I'm also curious as to how we're still at a point where such a policy that's five years old, that the people using it and taking it can be role models.
Yash Puri 15:32
I think there's a perception that you've got to fight several battles to get that shared parental leave. And when you've got it, you're an amazing person and I don't think it's the case at all. I think there are multiple factors that are contributing to the perception that someone takes shared parental leave. Wow, they're a super dad. Oh, wow. Aren't they honourable? I categorically deny that I'm not trying to be a role model and I didn't do this for anyone else other than my family. It just happened that BBC News got ahold of me because they saw my LinkedIn update and said can we do an article about you and then the whole thing kicked off. There are mothers out there who don't want to share the shared parental leave.
Yes, some of the mothers, they want to not share it, they want to be the full-time mom and that's fine. Right? So, a father that wants to take shared parental leave, will need to battle with his wife to say I want to take shared parental leave. Number one, right, and if he negotiates with his wife, then great, there are some cases where there's no negotiation, both family members agree that actually we should share it and they do it. I think the other thing is fathers are still deeply rooted in their traditional role as men as being the breadwinner of the family. If you've got a man that acts against that grain, they're seen as someone granted applause, what an amazing person, this guy is going against being this traditional alpha male person. I wasn't trying to do that and I've never thought of myself as that alpha male, or to be traditional.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:55
Yeah, but I kind of think that the point is less about being an alpha male, and more about what masculinity is and what it means because we're associating being masculine with being the breadwinner and not caring for your family. So surely, it goes down to the heart, that sort of systemic perspective, fundamentally, our view of masculinity needs to shift.
Yash Puri 17:21
It does. I see a lot of dads and I know a lot of dads who are under the pressure of thinking they've got to be the breadwinner and their minds wander beyond that because they think that's their role in life, and actually, they challenge themselves and take a step back. I think that they realise that actually, they're looking and focusing on the wrong things in life.
I had a colleague of mine, contact me and posted the BBC News thing, he read a few more blogs that have been on a website and said, Yash, I feel like I've missed out on my daughter's upbringing. I've been too focused on my career, but also on my wife, she's been the main person raising my daughter, and I want to change in 2020. And this is why people think, wow, you've taken shared parental leave, you’re a role model, you didn't change things and maybe we’ve just been a bit more, I'm not saying risky. I was told I was risky by an old boss, he messaged me and he said, well done for being risky, I'm really glad it worked out for you. And I'm thinking that there was no risk involved in it. And again, I think there's a perception that if you do this magical thing of taking shared parental leave or full-time stay-at-home dad, whether it be, well you're amazing because you must have really suffered to get that position.
Nadia Nagamootoo 18:29
What do we need to do to normalize shared parental leave?
Yash Puri 18:33
I think it’s above and beyond shared parental leave. I think the way I look at it, the shared parental leave, the stay-at-home dad, and flexible working, that is taking more parental leave, which I was entitled to if the child is above the teenage years. The reason why I put Papa Penguin there is my own way, in my own little bubble, to try to say I've got a large network. I know people in different industries, not just financial services, I know a good mix of males and females and a good mix of upcoming people who want to become parents, other people who are parents and I know people who are struggling to be parents. Therefore, in my own little way, I just want to kind of share some stories, not just my stories, I want stories from other people and I can see in that little bubble that actually people are talking about it and taking it on board by saying, well, I want to do that.
I was in the nursery one day and one of the moms said to me, I saw your article and it's fantastic, that you took time out, you're just not travelling as well, during your leave, we've decided we're going to do the same thing. We're pulling our daughter out of the nursery, and this is a mother telling me, pulling our daughter out of the nursery at our expense and my husband is on a business trip in America, we will tag on as his family and we'll spend time as a family, and it's things like that. It's not about taking shared parental leave, it's the small things that actually my husband is doing around a business trip, how can I make the best use of that? That story of mine has somehow made her think actually, there's nothing wrong to go and tag along and do some travelling with my husband with the kids. So, it’s about embracing the message that it's okay to be a hands-on father and mother, work as a team, and just spend time quality time with your child or children while they're young because before you know it, they're not going to need you anymore.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:09
I'm so signed up for everything you've just said. And certainly, from my personal perspective, and what we've done, my husband and I embrace exactly that, we are very much equal in our parenting, which works perfectly for us. It's not for everyone and it does work differently for different couples. So, it's not like we're preaching to how it should be done but it works for us. I cannot speak to you without clearly talking about Papa Penguin, but I love the name, tell me the story behind it.
Yash Puri 20:40
So, the BBC News contact happened in November, shortly after me going back, I spoke to the journalist and within 24 hours, there's my picture up on BBC News and website. A good friend of mine reached out to me, and his name's AJ Jabra, a very good friend of mine, and he said, Yash, you've got to do something with this, not the same with what you've got with this BBC News article because a lot of people talking about it and there are loads of comments on Facebook. The funny thing is people actually questioning, are you a millennial? You've got so much grey hair. Seriously, I’m not on Facebook, my wife showed me people on Facebook saying BBC got it all wrong. Why the hell have they got an eighty-year-old Sandy on their site…[laughs]
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:23
So harsh.
Yash Puri 21:26
Anyway, I'm a millennial born in 1981, dude you’ve got to do something with this because he's, you know, a father of two and very hands-on and said, You've got to share your story and you've got to get other stories involved. I've kind of thought about it and he goes just try a blog site, get stories up there, post your story, the BBC News article doesn't go into your story depth, put it up there and you know, see where it goes. So, I'm a guy, if someone plants a seed in my mind, I'll just jump onto it and I would just think and think and execute it extremely fast. We bought the domain name after thinking about it all weekend, one of the coolest things, I had various names and I'm not going to bore you with it, but we went through every single animal kingdom. I’ll explain the animal reasons behind that. So, in the end, I was watching Dynasties on Sunday, on BBC iPlayer, with David Attenborough. It was the emperor penguin episode, where it talks about the mother going off, feeding herself after giving the egg to the husband, and the emperor penguin will sit on it for two to three months, sitting on that egg keeping them warm, and the mum will go off hunting for food, filling her belly up, and then stocking her belly up with foods that she could feed her child when it's born.
And dad penguin, the emperor penguin, sits there for two to three months and it's amazing. I’m like that's the role model, that's the dad I want to be really hands-on, not necessarily sitting there for two months, but it’s beautiful, he is letting the wife do what she wants to do, and what she needs to do and he's not complaining, he just gets on with it. And yeah, I want to be one of those. And then I thought Penguin, Papa penguin, what a great name. I don't have a role model and I think that my challenge has been I've not had a role model who I’ll say I want to be a dad like that. Now, my own father, is a fantastic father, I'm not saying he is not a role model, he is in a different generation. He came to this country, worked in factories, paid the mortgage off, doing all the hours God could send, he couldn’t take time out to do shared parental leave and do what I did right? He was a hands-on dad in his own way. My mom used to do night shifts and he will be the one at night who reads bedtime stories. So that is really hands-on father instinct, I've got it inside, I know what I want to be but I thought who's my role model in today's day and age I couldn't look at my network.
I couldn't look around my work office, I couldn't look at my friends and I don't know of anyone that's done this. So, I had to go to the animal kingdom to find a role model and so, I thought this is quite powerful. I called it Papa Penguin, this is not about being sexist and ignoring the female view, the objective is just to create a community where other dads and other Pappa penguins can share their stories about how they benefited from shared parental leave, or even the challenges of being a full-time working dad, or flexible working dad or single dad. I just want to get a space of stories where dads can feel like they can share and post things. Now, slightly out of habit, it may go nowhere anywhere. So, I bought the domain name that weekend, within a week of me just thinking about the design and my first story, it went live on the 19th of November, so what would have been February? I've had so many parents contacting me saying can I share my story and I'm now getting female voices involved as well.
I think that's really important about fathers having the impact they can make by being more hands-on with the family, what it means to the mother, and that's an important message. It's all about Dad, dad, dad. It's so important that fathers understand that actually, the impact they're going to make on their family unit but also, the mother is so priceless. I've got two stories recently up there, it's actually amazing and it's quite emotional when you read about it. It actually really touches me personally because I think about the things I've gone through and hopefully if you didn't realise I went through it, and read it out thinking, oh my gosh, I went through that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:06
What do you mean by what you went through that? What was it?
Yash Puri 25:07
Just questions like, am I being the right father? Am I doing the right thing? Am I being a good husband? I never knew what good looks like. I'm a perfectionist, and I struggled to work out how could I be a perfectionist Dad. I think in the early days, I probably wasn't equal and I felt like I was doing everything, and I should be doing more. I felt like I'm a super dad and I actually wasn’t. You know, and I’ve heard the stories of other fathers, they were doing way more than I've been doing, especially with my first child. But in my head, I was thinking, Oh, I get to work, I come back, I wash your dishes, I fold the clothes, I do the bins and I do all the other stuff. So what, this is life, everyone does this. And now I’m realizing it's been quite therapeutic to actually be reading my own stories and my own blogs because it actually sets me back a couple of notches to think about, I'm just like everyone else, the only thing that is happening is that I’ve read other stories about other fathers and it's benefited me. If it's benefiting me, it must have benefited other dads out there in some way or another.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:04
Yeah. And I get it, you don't have a desire to be a role model, you don't necessarily see yourself as one but because you spent that weekend thinking about Papa Penguin, and you know, buying that domain name, going out and seeking other voices. I am sorry to say but I think you actually are one. I think you should own it, that millennial father is one of the characteristics, the intersectional characteristics I know that you relate to, as well as being an Asian father, another characteristic.
So, let's take the first one, what's particularly unique about millennial fathers?
Yash Puri 26:40
I think the millennial father's gone through some generational crosslink. We’re the ones that have kind of had an experience of the old non-technological world, a time before the internet, where the internet was just kind of coming into place, a time before mobile phones and apps and all that. I think we entered a generation where we’ve seen change, transformation, and transition, we're kind of caught in the middle of the old world versus the new world. So, when I was being brought up, we were brought up in a very liberal household but strict in terms of education, you can't have computers, you should not have a console, you're not gonna have a SEGA MegaDrive or Nintendo 64. I couldn’t have any of that and it's all about that focus on education, you must be the first one in the family to go to university, you've got to make me proud son, you’re the oldest, you got to go to university and make us proud, right? So, I grew up in an environment and I'm sure a lot of my peers in that generation grew up in an environment where we were pushed to be successful.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:43
How much of that do you think is being in an Asian family?
Yash Puri 27:45
Oh, lots.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:48
Okay, so we've got the intersectionality here, haven't we, of being that generation but also growing up in a, are you first generation UK?
Yash Puri 27:56
Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:57
Okay.
Yash Puri 27:58
So, my mother left Africa, my father left India, my mother's doing medicine, she kinda continued here for various reasons and she ended up working in the factory. My father was working in a government position in India, and he could have carried on with that, but he came here to study electrical engineering. He couldn’t get into university here, and so they end up getting into factories. So, I think a lot of other Asian parents, they were doing well in their home countries, and for whatever reason, they moved to the United Kingdom but they couldn't continue that path and ended up on a different path. Their dream is because they couldn't wear the graduation hat, their dream is to see their child wear that graduation hat. In Disneyland Paris, I went to buy a Mickey Mouse teddy bear when I was like 10 years old, I still got it, and my mom said you can only buy one with a graduation hat.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:46
[laughs] I love it. She’s like that teddy bear is going to inspire you.
Yash Puri 28:50
Absolutely. So, I've got this purple Teddy bear Mickey Mouse, I still have it, it's got a purple graduation hat on it and that's pumped into my head success, success, success. So, I think to your question about millennials, we’ve gone through a transition. We've also got the traditional part of parents pushing down our heads in terms of the traditional landscape and we're growing in a landscape which is changing, evolving very rapidly. As we've grown up, we've come to an environment at university and the working environment where it's a mixed bag, we've got the old generation, we’ve got this upcoming new generation with new technology, and the way of thinking is changing.
I think the core of the storm, in order to keep up with time, you've got to continually change, and I think that millennials have kept changing. We've had to keep evolving, evolving and evolving., and because my wife is also a millennial, she's evolved, and she knows what modern parenting is, she's read about it. There are more books about it. So, she has a vision in terms of what mother she wants to be. Now a lot of traits have come from her own mother, and a lot of traits come from my own mother and my own father. So, I think where we are in terms of the Asian community intersect is you've got to be successful and it's all about work, work, work. Now I feel in my community, the Asian community, a lot of my friends who are in the same age category as me and have children, probably feel they've been drilled so much in their head by their family about working and they've seen their own parents work every hour, so taking time out can be quite embarrassing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:24
So, there's something about the cultural expectations of what it means to be Asian, in this particular culture, and going against that grain. It's almost like a double backlash. So, not only are you going against the grain of masculinity, but you're also going against the grain of what it means to be an Asian father, too. Is that what you mean?
Yash Puri 30:42
That's what I mean. I personally think some of my friends and circles can't do it because they can't get their heads to think about doing it. They're so stuck in their ways about the path they're on. And everything's got to be planned for, if I take time out of work, oh, my God, that’s not part of the plan and that's not part of how we do things. When my children are old enough, I want them to turn around to me and say, Dad, why do you make a big fuss about this parental leave stuff like that comment? No, just do it. You know, we don't work nowadays. We don't work we just stay with the kids and I think we'll get to that point, flexible working, and working from home. All this stuff is when my children are older, they've got their own kids, if they do have kids, who knows what's gonna happen. Yeah, I want to turn around and say, you may talk to someone else about it, just do it. We just do it now.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:28
Yeah, when I think back to watching TV, when I was growing up in the 80s, you have to wait for a certain time of day before you could watch anything on Channel Four because it only started at a certain time and all you saw was this little girl standing in front of a blackboard or whatever it was and some music. And now my daughter, she's like, oh, let's just watch Octonauts, she's got the whole series of Octonauts on demand whenever she wants. And I can't imagine her getting her head around what back in the 80s when I was growing up, and maybe as an analogy to that, maybe shared parental leave and parenting, this whole kind of journey that we're finding ourselves on now in terms of searching and trying to figure out how do we make this work? How can we make this acceptable? How do we break tradition? How do we move on in our understanding of masculinity and in our understanding of what it means to be an Asian father, maybe it just won't even be a conversation for them.
Yash Puri 32:24
But I think it will be. When you embed change in anything in life, it takes time for people to buy into that change to understand it and to transition to it. You can't point to someone and say you're at fault because the shared parental leave figure isn't 100% or 50%. There are too many factors and variables involved here I think, and unfortunately, it's going to take time, it's not going to flip the switch and magically do it. Some people can't afford to take it and some people don't want to take it. So, it's hard to look at that figure of 2% or whatever it is now and say it's failing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:56
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I totally agree. And I just wanted to ask you, what do you think organizations can do to encourage or support men in their caring responsibilities?
Yash Puri 33:07
I think one of the things we've got in place is just to have guest panelists talk to fathers and mothers about their experiences and the challenges that they have. We have regular dialogues and lunch sessions. I think there's communication and I think organisations just need to talk more about the subject, whether it's mental health, whether it’s about caring for an elderly parent, and whether it's taking time out with your child. I think organizations need to map out life and look at where the pivotal things happening in an individual’s life; having a child, that’s a pivotal change, critical illness can happen at any point to anyone, and that’s another pivotal change, that person may start taking more time out and looking after their parents, that’s a pivotal change.
I think it's going to kind of map out, not just the parenting part, but everything on a map and say, right, how they tackle each of these major scenarios, we've got a policy behind it. How effective have you communicated that policy because these are life-changing experiences and having a child is a life-changing experience. So, the great thing is when I came back from my shared parental leave, I sat down by people who will say, how are you? How can we support your return? Please get in contact if you feel nervous and I was like, no I’m fine whatever, I'm all good but that was beautiful.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:22
Other people might not be and that's the perfect question, isn't it, that wrap-around support to understand that you've been through something that's different from how you were before, and something might have changed for you. So let us understand what that is, and we can then support you in whatever way you need us to, to make it a smooth transition back or whatever you need.
Yash Puri 34:44
Exactly. So, I think it's about the pre-event planning and awareness, and some people may not know when their parents get elderly they're going to take time out to look after them and what they can get support-wise in their organization. So, we get this well-being monthly newsletter and it's amazing, so you get every month wellbeing, and it talks about health and other policies and like snapshots of things you should be aware of. And again, I think it's communication and I think organizations need to get better at just communicating what they've got. And it's a challenge because it's how much you communicate.
You've got an organization's strategy, you've got the organization's competitors and you've got the day business stuff which you’ve got to communicate. All the other stuff and you don't blindside people, and they think, no, I'm not reading any of it, I get too much. And that's the challenge there’s so much information out there. Yeah, I think we are going to just keep talking and keep performing. And formally, we had a mentoring scheme. I met with somebody yesterday, just new to the organization, just to talk about the role I do, and there I talk about my journey. And she said, this is amazing, my husband is going through the exact same thing, he's a full-time dad, there is that isolation, and he thinks he's the only one out there doing it. I’m like no, there are other stay-at-home Dads, there’s Papa Penguin. There are blogs out there and stay-at-home dads, just talking about it, without planning to talk about it, it just helps our conversation, to go that one step further.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:03
I totally hear you. And I'm all for everyone sharing their lived experiences because it's only through those stories and us hearing other people's stories that we can connect with each other, we can understand each other and that develops empathy, it develops a world where we're connected somehow. Love it. So, Yash, we're coming to the end of our conversation. I've absolutely loved talking to you. I could carry on talking to you for a long while. Unfortunately, we have to end. Can I ask you, for people who are interested, how they might get ahold of you? Are you active on social media? What channels?
Yash Puri 36:39
Yeah, so LinkedIn, Yash Puri, I’ve got a profile there, you'll find it quite easily because I stated it in there. I took shared parental leave, and I am very proud of that. I put it in my LinkedIn profile.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:50
I know, I love that. It’s great.
Yash Puri 36:52
So, you can find me there. I've also Papa Penguin, as a company on LinkedIn, you can find me there as well. I do lots of posts, there are my blogs, then pappenguin.org is the blog site where all the lovely materials and all the lovely people who share their stories are uploaded. Instagram, Papa Penguin blog, I'm trying to get on that front as well where I can, or contact @papapenguin.org. So, you'll get ahold of me somehow, or shoot yourself an audience. I'm sure you can.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:21
Indeed. And of course, all of the show notes for this episode are going to be available on Avenir consulting.co.uk under podcasts. So, if you need to contact either myself or Yash then all of the details will be there. Yash, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me. It’s been brilliant fun, I love everything you're doing. I wish you all the best with Papa Penguin, you know, you've got my full support. It’s been lovely speaking to you.
Yash Puri 37:47
Thank you so much. Great. Thank you so much Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:50
That concludes episode four of my Why Care Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed the conversation. I loved Yash’s proactive approach and willingness to share his story and through that, it gives men the confidence to adopt a more active parenting approach. Do let Yash and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle app Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Christiane Gross for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
