Why care? #5: Christina Brooks – Recruiting & Retaining Diverse Leaders
“The puzzle is solved when all sides are equal, and it takes time and patience.”
In this episode I talk to Christina Brooks, an exceptional talent acquisition expert with 15 years industry experience and Co-founder of executive search firm Ruebik, a name that represents an analogy of D&I and the famous cube game. Remarkably, her firm is the only executive search company to offer a one-year onboarding service and coaching programme to support the transition of a candidate with a diverse background. They have also developed a unique internal digital platform for talent pipelining.
Together we explore the challenges faced by organisations when they attempt to bring in diverse talent without dedicating the time to promote the right mindset and culture. We also discuss why diverse executive disruptors are needed in every industry. She gives us answers on what organisations can do in the short term to attract and retain this diverse talent.
At the time of recording, George Floyd’s murder was breaking news so it led to an insightful discussion on race and racism. Christina offers her insights about the challenges Black people face in the UK and she tells us about her volunteer work with young adults with behavioural issues and offenders. We discuss how we all can become more culturally intelligent and what role curiosity and creating safe spaces to talk play in the solution. She leaves us all some great recommendations on how organisations should be responding to the #Blacklivesmatter movement.
Transcript
Christina Brooks: 00:00
Without curiosity, we cannot affect change. Without curiosity, we never understand why. And it's the understanding of the why that will change the shape of how we treat each other as a society, as colleagues, as an employer and as an employee. If we don't ask why, if we don't understand the why, we can't expect change.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 00:22
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to Episode 5 of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. What does diversity of thought mean? And how do we attract it into our organisations? What are the systemic issues at play when talking about race and racism? What do organisations need to do in response and support of the Black Lives Matter movement? These questions and many more will be answered on today's podcast when I speak to my guest on the show, Christina Brooks. With over 15 years of industry experience in the field of executive resourcing including working for Rolls Royce, and in several executive search firms, she set up Ruebik, which specialises in seeking diverse talent as well as supporting the all-important onboarding process. We talk about her personal experience of overt racism, the deep societal issues that have come to the fore as a result of Black Lives Matter, and why it is crucial for organisations to open up a dialogue around it. Finally, Christina Brooks explains what organisations need to do in order to achieve greater diversity across their organisation. So, Christina, welcome to the Why Care Podcast, it's amazing to have you on the show.
Christina Brooks: 02:56
Thanks, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 02:57
We've been trying to arrange this for a while, haven't we? And I'm really excited because you've just recently rebranded. And I love the name of your company Ruebik. What made you come up with that name?
Christina Brooks: 03:09
Yeah, of course. So previously, we had gone to market under the name of Penon Partners. And Penon is really about inclusion. So, Penon is an assembly of all members of a group. It's a fantastic name, and we loved it, and it absolutely served its purpose in terms of sharing what we were about. But I felt that I wanted a name that was a little bit more emotive, so I wanted a name that would story tell and where you could conjure images about that specific word. So, Ruebik, through a late-night branding session with my business partner, Joseph Williams, Ruebik came to mind, really, as a name. We wanted the creative license to discuss colour, it represented changing the face of leadership for us and fundamentally, it's a puzzle that everybody knows, it's very nostalgic from the 80s. The game is solved and the puzzle is solved when all sides are equal. So, I really felt that it was more representative of what we're aspiring to.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 04:07
I love that. The puzzle is solved when all sides are equal. It has such meaning behind it. And of course, everyone knows the Ruebik's Cube and has spent many painful hours trying to solve it.
Christina Brooks: 04:18
Yeah, absolutely. That's another really good point, it takes a lot of time and patience, and you have to be willing to put the time in. We felt that that was absolutely right, that’s the conversation we are trying to hold up at the moment around diversity, around inclusion, and we're still a long way from getting that right, so it just takes time and patience.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 04:38
My goodness. And I can hear a lot of people who are listening to this actually resonating with them because sometimes it just feels like we have more than a mountain to climb when it comes to creating equity, creating equality, and making sure there's justice and fairness in the workplace in society. I love everything that Ruebik stands for. Can you just expand a little bit, what exactly do you offer as a service?
Christina Brooks: 05:03
So, we have set out to be an executive search firm that focuses on cultural alignment. So, what this means is that we will not only go out and find exceptional diverse talent, in the market, we also provide an onboarding service. Where we differ is that a lot of search firms the process is you're briefed, you get given the mandate, you go out, you find somebody, you place them into their role, and then you wait to hear from the organisation when they have another vacancy to hire somebody into a post. I think where we differentiate ourselves is, as part of our fee, we provide a one-year onboarding programme. So, it means that for every diverse candidate we place, they have access to an executive leadership consultant, or an executive coach, to help transition them into their post and to give them the best chance of success in their new organisation.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 06:03
Wow, what an amazing offering to be able to support, because I know that research has shown that actually, the onboarding process isn't always that smooth, particularly when you're bringing in diverse talent, , they may not automatically just fit into the culture at the present time. Is that why this onboarding in the first year is important?
Christina Brooks: 06:26
That's absolutely the case. And we've found, statistics show that most executives fail in their posts, within the first six to nine months of them being onboarded, they want to leave their organisation and they don't feel aligned. A large part of our mandate is to go out and find innovators, they want game changers, they need disruptors because I think businesses realise that in order to add value and to progress as an organisation, they need differences of thoughts, and cognitive diversity is huge at the present moment. However, when you bring a disrupter into an organisation, or a game changer, it means they are going against the grain, it means you have a culture, which is not where it needs to be. And so, it requires a difference of thought. And so, there is often a disconnect, but that's by choice, the organisation realises this, that is by choice. But we as a duty, Ruebik as a duty, feel that it is our job to really provide as much scaffold and structure to our diverse executive that we are placing into that organisation to ensure that they embed well, that they land well, that they can be successful and make the changes that they were hired to do.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 07:38
Yeah. So, do you think organisations really know, like, truly understand what they're asking for when they're saying, we want disruptors and we want diverse talent? Do you think they get what that means, in terms of how the culture will need to change and adapt, in order to embrace that diversity?
Christina Brooks: 07:55
I think there's still a bridge between intent and goodwill, to the actual art of possible. I think that a lot of organisations realise that if they did have somebody who was a disrupter and who was a game changer, it would be beneficial to them, their business, their product, and the customers that they serve. But what typically happens Nadia, we see more and more of this, time and time again, is that when those individuals are found and placed, they often hear that old rhetoric of well, that's not quite how it's done here, we don't do things like that here. And so, they soften the edges of the person who's been brought into that business to affect change. And so, I think it's for us as a search partner to that business to really hold the mirror up and say, Well, look, this is what you wanted. This was the change that you wanted and here's how we will help you do that through your new appointment.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 08:47
Yes. So, it’s part of your work, not just with the individual who has been onboarded, but actually with the organisation as well to help them understand what that in reality means.
Christina Brooks: 08:58
Absolutely. And this is why we are very much a partnership, we will partner with organisations, we don't see ourselves as just a recruitment firm because there's such a huge educational piece around this Nadia, that without that, you just decrease your chances of success, of attracting, finding diverse talent and really shifting your culture. So, it has to be a partnership, that educational piece is so important.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 09:25
And are you finding organisations that are open to that? So I get a sense sometimes when I'm working with organisations that they like the idea of bringing in diverse talent, diversity of thought, they want disruptors, they want more innovation in their organisation, but when it comes to actually embracing a cultural shift, which will be necessary in order for that innovation to actually happen, there is a bit more resistance.
Christina Brooks: 09:48
I think that if you look at an organisation in its entirety, you have pockets of that business that will be more innovative, more agile, that have the ability to move at pace, and other sides that are more traditional, a little bit more glacial at pace. So, it's really trying to understand the identity of that organisation. So not necessarily what they used to be, but what do they want to be? What are they trying to move to in the future? And once they are clear on where they need to take the organisation and what it needs to become, that helps us, that helps our mandate in terms of going out and finding those individuals because there will always be conflict and there will always be a bit of a disconnect, especially in the large organisations. I think in some of the smaller portfolio-backed start-up-type environments, where they have the opportunity to build their culture from scratch, it's a lot easier for them to describe and really have an aligned vision and understand where they're going. But I think when you're working with some of the larger FTSE organisations that have been built through acquisition, there's so much cultural alignment that needs to be done internally and we do our best to support that externally.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 11:01
Yeah, I get it, they obviously have a deeply embedded culture, a very historical culture and that's hard to shift. I'm interested in what you were talking about around diversity of thought, and cognitive diversity being more and more spoken about when it comes to diversity. It’s not just about the diversity streams like gender and ethnic minorities, actually diversity of thought encompasses all of that, doesn't it? If you've got more of a male-dominated organisation, the diversity of thought could come from bringing more women in but different organisations will have a different makeup. So, therefore, how do you assess who will bring in that diversity of thought?
Christina Brooks: 11:41
That's a really good question. How do you assess who will bring in that diversity of thought? And I think it always goes back to really understanding the bench of exec leaders who are key decision makers and who are responsible for setting the strategy and vision of that organisation. I think the increased need for diversity is where a lot of execs that sit on those ELT committees, and quite often they will have come from similar backgrounds, similar universities, will have had similar experiences, and they may or may not have come from similar industries. And you get that homogenous thinking and you get that groupthink, Nadia.
So I think what they're realising is that there is a value when you get somebody who's outside of that network, there is a value from somebody who comes in, who thinks completely differently to you and the rest of your team that has completely opened up a different perspective, or a part of the market that you wouldn't have otherwise entertained. And I think really if you flip the question on its head and really think about, well, when is diversity useless? When can we say that there is no need for diversity? And I think it's when you look at industries or organisations where there has been no change, there has been no innovation, they’ve made no progress, and it's really hard to think about sectors or businesses where that hasn't happened. So really, if we look at it through that lens, it becomes apparent that the need for diversity, shouldn't even be a business case, we look around us, and it touches all parts of innovation.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 13:16
Absolutely. I completely agree that innovation comes from all different types of diversity, not just from different backgrounds. It's really fascinating working in the space of inclusion and diversity, particularly now, where you're gradually seeing some people understand that, executives understand that, and reflecting on why. For example, in certain companies, Kodak's classic, isn't it? Just didn't see the change of the market coming, didn't have the diversity of thought to recognise that something different was needed and so, they produce what they always produce, and they fall off. So yeah, I completely get it.
Christina Brooks: 13:59
Yeah. And Nadia, it's interesting because I've been having lots of conversations in the market right now around our government's response to COVID, to the Coronavirus pandemic. And from the outset, there were questions around, Well, look, would we have responded to the pandemic as flu-like symptoms if we'd had perhaps a Chinese or Korean advisor within the government who would have said, ‘Actually you need to respond to this like SARS, this is not flu at all’? It really shows even right now, over the upcoming weeks, how are we learning from other organisations? How are we thinking from other governments? How are we thinking differently? And I think that it can be shown time and time again when we don't have that different perspective when we don't have that diversity of thought, when we don't embrace that, it can be detrimental and fatal in some instances.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 14:52
Yeah, I completely see what you're saying. I'm interested in, just moving on from diversity of thought and actually really focusing on black and ethnic minority individuals. And I know that this is a real area of passion for you and something that obviously is very close to home considering your ethnic background as well. Can you talk to me a little bit about the work that you do specifically in that space?
Christina Brooks: 15:16
Yeah, so specifically around the black and ethnic minority community, we have pulled together a network, it's called Spotlight. And really what we're doing within that community is reaching out to black and ethnic minority leaders to offer up a support network, and really give them exposure to mentoring programmes and sponsorships. This is because I think one of the problems that we have encountered when speaking with these leaders is that they don't know where the opportunities are in the market. So, it's really hard to progress in your role when you haven't built those relationships. And we've not come up through a cohort of individuals that you can look to and really get advice from, specifically, if you've come from another country, you've not been brought up in the UK, perhaps. So, it's how you are leveraging your network and relationships in the market. So, we have pulled together a community of ethnic minority leaders to help support and elevate each other.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 16:12
I love that. I love the opportunities that you can provide through the network. It's made me think so much about privilege and the concept of privilege, so what do you think it is about our society and how organisations function that means that black and ethnic minority individuals feel like they're lacking a network and feel like they need additional support? In 2020, why are we still needing to offer these sorts of programmes and support mechanisms for certain groups of people?
Christina Brooks: 16:45
There are a couple of answers to that. I think that fundamentally there has been a lack of role models within business. So, I think that from a very young age, the narrative just isn't really there. I think that there are certain types of roles that can be perceived to be reserved for the privileged. So, getting that number one job, being CEO, sitting on that exec leadership team, I don't think it is part of that narrative. So, there's a lack of role models and I think that there's more conversation around that now. I think that we hear such great stories all over the world of people being profiled and more senior ethnic leaders getting into these posts but historically, that has not been the case, there have been a lot more barriers to entry for us. This question is like, how long is a piece of string?
Nadia Nagamootoo: 17:38
I know. I've opened up a can of worms.
Christina Brooks: 17:41
Yeah, it is opening up a can of worms because if we look at those entering, how we approach talent entering into organisations, the first thing that we do is look at the university. So, this is our graduate intake. So, if we think of that, right at that entry point to organisations, we want to look at what universities they’ve come from. We know historically, the percentage of ethnic students that have access to redbrick universities is so low, the numbers are completely skewed that even at the entry point for education, to be able to get the number one job, you are far outweighed by your peers who are from privileged backgrounds, or non-ethnic minorities, the cards are not in your favour.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 18:26
Gosh. I feel sad when I'm talking to you now because it makes me feel like it goes back beyond that, it's not just at a point of University where that privilege starts to kick in, actually, it's the deeply embedded power systems in our societal structures. That means that as soon as an ethnic minority baby is born, the stereotypes, the judgments, and the expectations of that individual are written down already, it is set in stone and what we're trying to do is to chip away at that stone, and it's just taking forever. Does that make any sense?
Christina Brooks: 19:03
It does, it does. And it's heavy-hearted, that I'm answering these questions because there's so much more to say about the reasons why the executive landscape is impacted where it is. I always like to look at them, what can we do? What can we do to change that narrative? For me, there are a couple of things at work. So just like you referenced Nadia, when a black baby is born, in the UK, in the US, anywhere globally, outside of what would be deemed a country of cultural heritage, there is an immediate bias towards that child. The minute you attend school, as an infant through to middle school and secondary school, you will have more of a struggle than your other peers and that's how it is. And we know this, we have the statistics for that here in the UK. So, what we see is a high percentage of young specifically black boys being expelled from school.
Now I'm a trustee of Footsteps, which is a pupil referral unit in Tottenham, where there is a high percentage of young males and females who are expelled from school. And if you think about that, Nadia, what does that mean? At 13, 14, and 15, you are told that you have done something wrong, and you've been put aside, you've been set away from the mainstream, and that actually, you're not welcome here. So, it's so important that these kids are given as much access, as much support, and structure in terms of making the right decisions at the critical juncture in their life. So, this is the work that we do at Footsteps, we look at these children who have social, emotional, and behavioural challenges, and, help reengage them into society with that pro-social lens because they're hurt and they're upset, so sometimes they don't make the best choices on the back of being rejected so early on in their lives.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 20:57
It's such a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? That's what it is. They've been getting these messages for the majority or all their life about what they should be like, and their peers are showing them what sort of behaviour is for them, for people like them. And of course, it just carries on the whole cycle, and therefore society's expectations of them are never higher than that, you know.
Christina Brooks: 21:18
It really does. And we recently met with the Governor of Brixton, HMP prison, through our charity partners Key For Life, who runs a rehabilitation programme for young men who are currently incarcerated. And his messaging was so powerful, he was like, the minute you expel a young boy, you may as well walk them right up to my front gates of this prison. The minute they are excluded from that system, you may as well bring them right here. And that really raised every hair on the back of my neck Nadia, because it's absolutely true, the minute that they are dispelled from society in that way, they then end up in these prison systems. And outside of the prison system, it then becomes harder to integrate, reintegrate into work, reintegrate into society, because you've then been labeled, and you're seen as the other, so they are the most marginalised portion of society.
So, this is what the Ruebik community is about, I really try to operate that model where I'm touching every part of society where you are told that you’re other and you are told that you're different. This is because we have to move from a place where we're talking about diversity and inclusion to cultural intelligence, and, really understanding what that means in this day and age. Because I feel there's real fatigue around diversity, and fatigue around inclusion and what those words mean, when actually, if we were more culturally intelligent, I think that we can have a more open dialogue.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 22:47
Yes. And I suppose the question there at the tip of my tongue is, how? How do we become more culturally intelligent? What are the steps that we as individuals and as organisations need to take in order to be more culturally intelligent?
Christina Brooks: 23:00
That's a really good question because there are individuals out there who have all the best will in the world, and the best intentions, they want to be an ally, they want to fight for equity and they want to be progressive. There is something fundamentally deep-rooted, that they've not been able to acknowledge, because of the ugliness of what it is, and the truth of the pre-coded messaging that lives within individuals. And I think if we were to take the example of a recent incident that happened in New York in Central Park, and there was an exchange between a white lady and a black gentleman in the park. He had asked her to leash her dog, it was in an area where all animals had to be on their leash. She felt like she was being threatened by this individual, in turn, weaponized, the colour of her skin against this gentleman to call the police and say that she was being harassed and threatened by an individual who had politely asked her to put a dog on the leash.
Now, she felt powerful enough that the colour of her skin would supersede anything that he had to say, he no longer had a voice because she was going to use the colour of his skin against him. And she was able to do so. Luckily, in that instant, he caught this on camera, so there was no escalation and he was able to walk away from that situation. On the flip side of that coin, we see incidents where people are not able to walk away from that situation. We have these tragedies time and time again. And I think that people do not have the language to talk in a safe space about coded default reactions that they have to people who do not look like them, who do not sound like them, who are different from them. We don't have that safe place yet, Nadia, we’re unable to talk about it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 24:55
And one of the things that we do at Avenir is to try and create that safe space. And I hear you, this one is a shocking story, but also one that, okay, yes, it's been raised in the media now, but this happens, I believe, on a very regular, if not daily basis. We would like to think in 2020, that actually, racial discrimination doesn't actually happen so overtly at all, in fact, we'd love to think that, and yet it does play out, and in this case, overtly and consciously. In the workplace, I speak to so many people through the workshops that we run, who don't feel they have a voice and it is because of the colour of their skin, that they're overlooked for opportunities, that their voice just isn't heard in meetings, or they're not asked to offer their opinion, or just because of the accent.
There's some negative humour applied in terms of restating what they've said, but with an English accent, just to prove the point that you're different. Those micro-aggressions, play out regularly in people's day-to-day lives, and it has a massive impact on their self-confidence, and on their belief about what they can do and what's possible for them. Is that something that you've personally experienced, that direct discrimination? I mean as a black woman yourself.
Christina Brooks: 26:17
Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I think that I have been fortunate enough to work in a lot of organisations where I have felt like I've been a part of that team, where I feel like I've added value, and it's not been just because of the colour of my skin.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 26:33
That's the same as my experience.
Christina Brooks: 26:35
So, I feel really grateful for that. However, early on, in my head-hunting career, I remember going to meet an investment banker, I used to place investment bankers and private equity professionals into roles across the city. And I went to meet a candidate one day, and as I walked in and sat at his table, he took one look at me and stood up, and walked away, he walked out of the coffee shop.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 26:58
Whoa, no.
Christina Brooks: 27:00
That happened, and that was purely because of the colour of my skin because we'd had several conversations on the phone, so, he would not have known my heritage. It was only at the point of me sitting down at that table to have a coffee with him that he stood up and walked away.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 27:17
Oh, my gosh. So, how does that make you feel, if you’re okay to talk about it?
Christina Brooks: 27:22
It makes me feel like 10 years on from that point that I would love to sit down with that guy and speak to him.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 27:28
I think we all would.
Christina Brooks: 27:31
I would just love to know what was going on in his mind. How did I make you feel? What was the reaction that I caused in him that he felt the need to get up and walk away from me? And to provide that safe space, because this is real, and this happens on a day-to-day basis. While we don't have people who'd be brave enough to stand up and walk away, we do have that innate feeling of perhaps that the person who's sitting opposite me and looks different to me, their value doesn't count here, their opinion doesn't count here, it's insignificant, it doesn't matter and it's of no value to me. And that's what I want to understand, it's the why because until we can start having those conversations, then we can start to measure the difference, and then we can start to actually affect change.
I think that when people disguise themselves as allies and disguise themselves as being progressive, and they use language like well, I don't think that it's important that we carve out black lives matter, all lives matter. I think when we hide behind masking of terms and phrases, unconscious bias when we make it nice, and we don't look at the ugly for what it is, I think we won't get very far and we're unable to progress the conversation. This is because it will always be socially awkward, it will always feel like we're using a curse word when we use terms like racist, and when we talk about our black colleagues or ethnic colleagues, it feels wrong, and some people feel uncomfortable using those words. It has to get to a place of normality.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 29:09
Yeah, I must admit, what really strikes me about your response just then is that actually, it wasn't fuelled or filled with anger at this individual, because I could certainly think of a fair few other words to say to him, but actually one of curiosity. It then dawned on me that this requires a level of maturity, this requires a level of emotional maturity, in the sense of, you made me feel something and that wasn't great, but I get that that would have come from you feeling something in the first place. So, let's talk about that, let's explore that, let's figure out what this is so that you can better understand me and I can better understand you.
Christina Brooks: 29:47
Absolutely. Interestingly enough, Nadia, curiosity is one of our Ruebik values.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 29:53
And ours actually.
Christina Brooks: 29:56
It's so important, and without curiosity, we cannot affect change, without curiosity, we never understand why. It's the understanding of the why that will change the shape of how we treat each other as a society, as colleagues, as an employer, and as an employee. If we don't ask why, if we don't understand the why, we can't expect change. And for me, it's as simple as that, really.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 30:24
My goodness, I really did open up a can of worms, didn’t I? This is a deep subject. And what is it then that we're asking organisations to do? Because at the moment, we're talking at a very deep societal level, so, what's the call to organisations around this?
Christina Brooks: 30:41
The call to organisations, it's to really find a deeper meaning in some of their strategic agenda. So, diversity and inclusion should be sat around the board, but we know this, and it is a priority for some of the CEOs, but I would like it to be more than a priority by way of demographic. It cannot translate into figures, it cannot translate into numbers but you can easily show the representation of colour, you can easily show the representation of gender, of disability, of the LGBTQ community. It cannot be translated into numbers, it has to translate into cultural intelligence, it has to translate into understanding something about somebody that is different to you, it’s about you knowing something today that you didn't know yesterday, and you're better off for it. It has to translate into a safe environment, psychological safety is a term that's being bandied around at the moment because we understand that if you're not in an environment where you can bring your whole self to work, you are restricted in your capacity to perform.
You don't feel like you belong in that environment, and yeah, it restricts performance. What does psychological safety mean? We know that it was Mental Health Awareness Week last week, we also saw that a black man was murdered in the States, and as a result of that, we saw that a black man was threatened in a park by a white female. There are so many current examples that we could pause to reflect on right now and think about what could have been done differently in those situations. As an organisation, even though it's not a direct read across your business and the output, you have customers, and you have employees that are begging for their voices to be heard, and to feel like they are seen by you. And that would be recognising what happens in our communities and talking about that at an organisational level. They are the difference and they're the changes that need to be made.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 32:47
Yeah, what I'm hearing then is that organisations have a responsibility not to sweep this under the carpet, not just as to hear the news but actually feel that it's something outside of their power, or outside their organisation and there's nothing really that can be done about it, it’s just the way it is. It is about actually taking some of that responsibility onto their shoulders and opening up the dialogue and the conversation in the organisation. So that if their organisation is a microcosm of what's happening outside, I'm not saying it is, but if there are certain practices or unconscious biases that are playing out, by opening up the dialogue, through some of the stories that we hear in the media, you're making it real to people, that it isn't something that happens in America because it's easy to do that, right? It's easy to go, ‘Okay, but that doesn't happen here, not in our organisation or not in our country’.
Christina Brooks: 33:41
And my response to that is, then you can no longer call yourself a global business then, you can't operate in other countries that still condone this kind of behaviour, if that happens there, then that's their problem and then you no longer get to be a part of that ecosystem. But you are a global business, so if you do want to partner with organisations that are based in the US or based elsewhere, it does make it your problem. And I think that it can sometimes feel like a witch hunt, Nadia. I think that when we start to do unconscious bias training, some people can feel attacked because it makes them feel uncomfortable. And of course, it's not the intent but if we think about our language, if we think about what it means to be consciously inclusive if we think about giving people a way to say, ‘Okay, you would like to express to me that you're not racist. Okay, I understand that. But how about saying, I didn't realise I felt this way about this population, or I didn't realise that my response could be aggressive, that it could be threatening. I feel endangered when I see a person from x community walking towards me.’ Let's look at what they didn't realise and let's have a look at what you do feel but find a safe place to say it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 34:56
Wow. For those organisations that are thinking, okay, we could open up a dialogue, and that will help with getting a lot of this to the forefront of people's minds, to open up their thinking and their self-awareness potentially of their own views on certain things. That's great, and I certainly see the value of that but what about those organisations that are particularly keen on attracting and retaining a broader diversity of talent? What is it that they could potentially do right now that would help them with that endeavour?
Christina Brooks: 35:30
Nadia, I previously worked for an FTSE 30 global organisation, it’s an engineering business, and one of my mandates was to have a look at our supply chain from a recruitment perspective. So, who do we partner with? And I think that the thing that struck me the most was search firms and executive search organisations that we were tasked to find diversity, lacked the difference, it lacked representation within itself. So, we were asking search firms who mirrored our business in terms of lack of representation to go out and find that. So, this is why Ruebik as a business, we are so crucially important because we are able to disrupt that supply chain. We are able to offer up another solution to finding that diverse talent because we are able to access a broader diverse pool, I would say than most other search businesses in the UK right now.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 36:33
Well, that absolutely is a call to action. You know I'm fully behind everything that Ruebik stands for and does. I think you are doing amazing things. And we've hardly touched on it actually, I was wanting to talk a lot more about everything else you're doing but for those people who are listening and really want to get hold of you, where can they do that? Are you active on social media? Or where's the best place?
Christina Brooks: 36:57
Absolutely active on LinkedIn, I use that as my primary source of social media at this moment in time, so they can find me there, Christina Brooks, or please feel free to send me an email directly to christina.brooks@ruebik.com. I will be delighted to hear from you, even if it's a question or to push back on any of my thoughts or views today, I really welcome and I'm open to those discussions. And you don't have to agree with me, that's the beauty of this, but it's the understanding of each other that's so important.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 37:37
And I really love your openness. Actually, I think if everyone was open to that challenge and open-minded to different thoughts and views, I think maybe society will have made a bigger shift than we have already. So, I've absolutely loved speaking to you, Christina, everything that we've spoken about today feels like the tip of an iceberg that we haven't got, but it's been such a brilliant conversation. Thank you. All of the things that we've spoken about today, Christina and I, will be available on the show notes page, which is on the usual place at avenirconsultingservices.com under podcasts. So, Christina, thank you, a big thank you for taking the time to speak to me today.
Christina Brooks: 38:17
Absolute pleasure, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 38:18
All right, take care. That concludes Episode 5 of the Why Care Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed the conversation. I loved Christina's passion for creating systemic change by bringing in a diversity of thought, cultural intelligence, and open dialogue around racism. Do let Christina and me know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @NadiaNagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Christiane Gross for supporting with the show notes.
