Why Care? #42: Make It Last with Dr. Sandra Upton
“I share this story in at the beginning of the book, I talk about how one of my clients, their entire team went through this DEI certification program at a very prestigious university. And it was a great program. They felt like they learned a whole lot and they were excited about the experience. And then they all got back to their organization and literally sat around the table and looked at each other and said, that was really cool, that was wonderful, but we still have no idea what to do. And so that's been my experience. I think as DEI thought leaders, we've done a good job of making the case for DEI and telling people what they need to do to attract more diverse talent. You need to do a better job of promoting women. You need to do a better job of engaging your employees, creating better belonging. You need to do all of these things in organizations who are really committed to doing the work. And they're like, okay, that's great. We'll do these things, but how do we do it? And I think that's been the missing link.”
In this episode of Why Care?, host Nadia Nagamootoo welcomes Dr. Sandra Upton, an esteemed DEI expert and author of Make It Last. They dive deep into Sandra's journey, from academia to consulting, and explore her eight-step DEI Propel framework designed to create sustainable and impactful DEI strategies within organisations. Sandra shares her insights on overcoming resistance, building effective DEI governance, and ensuring long-term success through practical application and continuous learning.
Highlights
Sandra’s Journey: Dr. Sandra Upton shares her extensive background in academia and consulting, detailing over 25 years of experience in DEI work and what inspired her to write Make It Last.
Responding to DEI Backlash: Practical advice on how DEI professionals and leaders should respond to political and societal challenges, emphasising the importance of staying calm, informed, and proactive.
DEI Propel Framework: Introduction to Sandra's eight-step DEI Propel framework, offering a comprehensive, strategic approach to making DEI efforts sustainable and impactful within organisations.
Creating and Communicating Strategy: Exploring the importance of creating a sense of urgency, building effective governance, and developing a data-driven DEI strategy. Emphasis on the necessity of effectively communicating the DEI plan to ensure organisational engagement.
Measuring and Celebrating Success: The need to measure behaviour change using cultural intelligence assessments and feedback mechanisms. Highlighting the importance of recognising and celebrating both small and large DEI victories to maintain motivation and demonstrate progress.
Sustaining DEI Efforts: Continuous evaluation of DEI strategies in response to changing internal and external factors, ensuring leadership remains engaged and committed. Sandra shares personal experiences to illustrate the practical application of DEI principles in overcoming microaggressions and promoting inclusion.
Key Takeaways
Sandra Upton’s DEI strategies emphasise practical implementation and proactive leadership to achieve lasting impact within organisations. Her approach integrates well-researched principles with real-world application to ensure DEI efforts are both effective and sustainable.
The DEI Propel framework provides an eight-step process for embedding sustainable DEI initiatives within organisations.
Leaders must remain calm and data-driven in their approach to overcome challenges and ensure long-term success.
Guest Bio
Dr. Sandra Upton is a leading expert in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) with over 25 years of experience. She has a robust academic background and has served as a faculty member and Dean at a private college in the United States. Dr. Upton is the author of Make It Last and the creator of the DEI Propel framework, which helps organisations develop and sustain effective DEI strategies. She is also the founder of Upton Consulting Group, where she continues to impact numerous organisations through her DEI consulting and training services.
Links
Dr. Sandra Upton LinkedIn: Dr. Sandra Upton on LinkedIn
Upton Consulting Group Website: Upton Consulting Group
Dr. Sandra Upton’s book “Make It Last”
DEI Propel Course Information: DEI Propel Course
Avenir Consulting: https://linktr.ee/avenirconsultingservice
Transcript
Dr. Sandra Upton 00:00
You know, leadership cannot get relaxed. You know, leadership has to be fully engaged every step of the way. There's never any point in this process or journey that leadership can sit back and kind of coast. And when I say leadership, I'm talking about the top, right? I'm talking about CEO, not just the CDO, but leadership because we know, especially when we look at the change management research, if leadership starts to get comfortable and say, okay, well, we gave you the push, we've given you the resources, and now just go and do it and report back to us on how things are going. We know that if leadership gets comfortable, especially at that step eight, and if there's not a succession plan in place, I mean, you have to continue to develop superheroes and equip people to succeed others and keep that pipeline of leadership engaged in the work. If you don't do those two things at that step eight, the old culture will absolutely reassert itself and it will be back to where you started at least several steps backwards.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:06
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring?
I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported, but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles, both inside and outside work.
Sandra is founder and chief DEI strategist with Upton Consulting Group, an innovative team of strategists who work with DEI professionals and organizations around the globe. She's also the author of Make It Last, a roadmap and practical strategies for how to do DEI work. Prior to launching Upton Consulting Group, Sandra was vice president global diversity practice with the Cultural Intelligence Center and also has an impressive academic background.
In this episode, we discuss the eight steps that Sandra outlines in her book to support organizations understand their DEI starting point and how to create change that sticks. We delve into how to generate engagement across the organization and what to do about resistors. We also discuss how to overcome the fear of not achieving goals or targets and how and when to celebrate successes. Sandra shares how important it is not to skip any stage of the process in order to genuinely achieve DEI change that lasts. She is a fountain of knowledge which she has poured into her book, and I feel incredibly privileged to have tapped into this directly through our conversation. Enjoy.
I am absolutely thrilled to welcome you, Sandra, to Why Care. Thank you so much for joining me.
Dr. Sandra Upton 03:52
So glad to be here.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:53
I'm really touched actually because you invited me to your book launch for Make It Last, and we didn't know each other at that point, right? So I want to say thank you for that, for reaching out, and for including me in your celebration of your incredible book. I have really enjoyed and learned a lot in reading it. It's so accessible, it's so practical. And anyway, we're going to go into a lot more detail about your book shortly, but before we do, it'd be great because some people might not know your background and all the work you've done and your career path. So it'd be great just to get a bit of your background if that's okay and how you came to write Make It Last.
Dr. Sandra Upton 04:37
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you first of all for inviting me to be on this podcast. I'm really excited about the conversation and I have such tremendous respect for you and the amazing work that you have been doing. And so the fact that we get to team up on this podcast and I think many other things as we go forward, it's just an honor. And I also want to thank you for coming to the book launch in London. I know you had a whole lot going on with your new book coming out. And so I was very honored to have you there present and for you to celebrate with me and to bring your book with you. I'd love that. I feel so strongly that there's so much work that needs to be done and there's room for all of us.
And we all come to the table with so many different experiences and information that needs to be shared with the world. And so I just love it when we can team up and work together on this really important work. But in short, I've been doing this work for well over 25 years and started out in academia. So I am an academician. I worked as a faculty and as a dean in the university setting at a small private college. I got my master's degree in educational leadership with an emphasis in human resource management. We, of course, talked a lot about DEI and that space. And then my doctoral degree focused on strategic leadership and did a lot of study and research around change management. So strong educational background there, but then working as an academic, teaching this subject for many years.
And alongside that really was big in keeping my foot in the corporate space. As an academic, I understand that research is important, but it's really about how do you take that and show people the practical application of the work. And so I had my own consulting firm alongside that for many years, working directly with clients. And fast forward, I've had the opportunity to work with literally hundreds of clients around the country and around the world, helping them to move the DEI work forward. When I was in higher education, again, I was the dean and I was faculty, but I was also part of the DEI council or a committee that was formed, which again is how a lot of organizations start this work. If they're not ready or willing to commit to hiring someone to do the work, they tend to form a council or a committee. And I was a part of that. And that was, again, over 25 years ago. And we were this innocent group of folks who wanted to make a difference on campus and really try and move the work forward. And I share the story in my book. You know, I say we were wildly unsuccessful. It's because our hearts were in the right place. We had the will, but we did not have a lot of experience. And it was a perfect example of, you know, if we're going to do this work and if we're going to make it last, you have to have a team of people who are not just compassionate, but they have to be competent in the work. And so I learned a whole lot from that experience. And that really then kind of put me on this massive journey to obviously get more experience and then have the privilege of working with so many organizations over the many years and learn a lot from that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:47
Throughout your whole book, there's so many stories and reflections from different clients you've worked with, and using that to illustrate each step of how to make DEI last. And we're going to come in onto your steps very shortly. But before we do, I actually don't often read the forwards of books, funnily enough. I don't know why, I just kind of skipped to the juicy part, which is like, you know, the main content, but actually I really enjoyed and got a lot from the forward in your book. And it was written by Stephen Drew, civil rights and employment law attorney. And I found it fascinating because it's so relevant right now to what's going on in the world.
He talks about some of the Supreme Court rulings and the backlash of DEI, particularly in the States. But of course, me being based in the UK is not solely in the States that that's happening. So my first question's around kind of, what's your advice for DEI professionals or leaders in organizations who really want to make this progress? And how do we respond to what's going on in the world, politically and otherwise around DEI?
Dr. Sandra Upton 08:58
My first piece of advice is just to tell people to calm down because I think organizations, individuals who are trying to do this work are in somewhat of a state of panic and the tendency is to react and to react out of fear. And the consequence might be that people actually start to shrink back from the work. And I think that is happening in some cases. But one of the main reasons why I wanted to have Stephen Drew write the forward was because I wanted people to hear from someone in the legal field. I mean, he's known around the world, but his job is actually, he's the one that someone would call to come in and sue if they feel like they have been discriminated against. And so he's sort of on the other side of things. But I really wanted him to come into the conversation to, again, really help us all, one, calm down, but two, also really understand the situation from a legal perspective. He's not in any way shying away from the fact that we are in a war, we are. And so we do need to be prepared. We do need to be knowledgeable. We do need to seek legal counsel as we are making decisions, but we do not need to shrink back. If anything, we need to go harder on this work and recognize that we've been here before. If you look at the journey around DEI here in the States, and I would even say around the globe, there's been this pattern. And I often say, people push back when they see progress. If they're not seeing any progress being made, then people ignore you. Why bother coming after you if there's nothing there to fight? So understand that that resistance, the backlash, is because we are making progress. We've got a lot more work to do, of course, but because we are making progress, that is making people uncomfortable.
And so that's the first thing I would say is, again, just calm down, use it as fuel and ammunition to really keep going and going harder on the work. The second thing I would say is to stay educated on what's happening. I mean, when you look at what is happening here in the U.S., post the SCOTUS decision, there has been lots of legislation passed in several states across the U.S. working to disband DEI, heavy focus still on the education space, and in particular, higher education, but they're coming after the corporate space as well. And so we do need to be knowledgeable and aware of what's happening and not sit back and pretend like it's not happening. And then I think the third thing is to not react, but to respond proactively by putting together a strategy, a data and outcome-driven strategy that when the heat gets hotter, we can navigate through that because we've got a clear plan, it's informed by good data, and it will help us really move the work forward in a substantive and sustainable way.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:56
Yeah, I would agree with all three of those points. I particularly like the sort of the calm down because there is that sense of panic at times discussing this DEI backlash war and more with DEI professional, with leaders, organizations wanting to know, well, what should we be doing here? Should we be pulling back? Should we be trying to fight and continue to push forward? And I think that just calm down for a moment, let's just understand why this is happening. But to your final point, which is that DEI strategy, obviously is a nice segue into your book.
And your book is framed around what you call the DEI Propel Framework, and it's an eight-step process sort of broken down into three phases to create that strategic route map. That you're talking about for roadmap to DEI and how to make it last. So if you wouldn't mind, just high level, I appreciate you can't go through the whole book, but just high level, what are those eight steps and the phases?
Dr. Sandra Upton 12:59
Sure, yeah, and I will definitely make it high level. But even before I go through the eight steps, I just want to explain a bit why I wrote the book. And when I think about my 25 plus years of experience in this work and the patterns and themes that I hear consistently and almost daily from organizations, and then you combine that again with the backlash, there are things that came out of that I felt very strongly that I wanted to write about.
The first is when we think about the DEI work, I have so many organizations, and again, I share this story in at the beginning of the book, I talk about how one of my clients, their entire team went through this DEI certification program at a very prestigious university. And it was a great program. They felt like they learned a whole lot and they were excited about the experience. And then they all got back to their organization and literally sat around the table and looked at each other and said, that was really cool, that was wonderful, but we still have no idea what to do. And so that's been my experience. I think as DEI thought leaders, we've done a good job of making the case for DEI and telling people what they need to do to attract more diverse talent. You need to do a better job of promoting women. You need to do a better job of engaging your employees, creating better belonging. You need to do all of these things in organizations who are really committed to doing the work. And they're like, okay, that's great. We'll do these things, but how do we do it? And I think that's been the missing link.
And so that was one of my main motivations behind the book is to not only tell you what to do, but everywhere that I tell you what to do, I tell you how to do it. So I felt like there was a huge gap there that organizations were screaming and DEI leaders and allies were screaming for, tell us, hold our hand and tell us how to do this work. I think the second thing is because DEI as a practice is still relatively new. We're all still learning. There's still so much more research that we need to do in terms of outcomes and best practices. I think we've learned a lot and I think we are making good progress for sure.
And so to me, when we think about change management, you've got a solid and very extensive history around change management practices and what works and what doesn't work. And so it just made all kinds of sense to me to marry those two things, to say, if we're going to make the DEI work last, let's connect it to some solid change management principles that we know if we do these things, if we do all of them, not skip them or try and rush through them, we can really make the work last. So what I've done here, again, is just married DEI or EDI with the change management framework and outline eight key steps that you have to take if you want the work to be, again, substantive and sustainable. And so we start with this idea of you gotta create a sense of urgency or as I call it, you have to decide that this can't wait. And so that's all about getting buy-in from leadership. And again, not only what to do, but how do you do that? And then you need to build your tribe. You have to have a governance structure around the work. You have to have a solid team of people who are, again, not just compassionate about the work, but they're competent.
And so building a skilled team of people, thinking about how you're going to organize the work, and then you develop your strategy. And oftentimes people will start to develop this strategy without having that governance structure in place and without getting adequate buy-in for the work. Then when you start working on strategy, you need to make sure that it's informed by data. What is your data telling you? And then how are you measuring every strategy or goal or priority that you established? It has to have or should have a metric attached to it. And then that fourth step, I see so many organizations who maybe have a good strategy in place, no one knows about it. So you can't keep it a secret. So it's all about that communication, sharing your plan. I work with so many organizations who are trying to do good work in DEI. And I might come in and let's say we do a survey asking people what are their thoughts about DEI. And they're like, well, I think I saw a mission statement written somewhere, but I don't quite know really what's happening. Leadership is then very frustrated because they're like, we've got this plan in place. We're doing this, we're doing that. And there's this huge gap between plan and communicating the plan. So that's an important piece.
And then that fifth step is what I call creating superheroes. People who are committed to doing the work, again, they need the skills and you have to upscale more than just your DEI council or your DEI team, but your department heads. Everybody needs to understand that DEI is a shared responsibility. And so you've got to bring all of your department heads up to speed and help them develop a strategy for their area. What does marketing look like in terms of DEI or EDI? What does IT look like? If you're in academia, what does the admissions team look like in terms of their DEI strategy? So you have to upscale and build this community of superheroes across the organization. And then you have to create short-term wins. People need to see, because DEI, as we know, the journey is the destination. We never fully arrive, but we can make progress. But people need to feel like it's working. If you want to keep them excited about it, feel like, you know, this is worth my time and energy, you have to be proactive in building in wins and the process. So you have to plan for those victories, as I call it. And then that step seven is all about creating this snowball effect. And so at some point, you've got to build deeper momentum around the work, get some wins, you know, get that strategy, do a good job of communicating it, equipping people. And once you get that momentum, then you got to take things to the next level, that snowball effect. And so that might be the time that, okay, yeah, we've had this DEI council and they worked okay up until this point, but now we got to go deeper in our commitment. It's time to hire, you know, a CEO. It's time to hire an EDI manager.
And so it's going deeper in that work. And then that step eight, where we really talk about making it last, that's where you can honestly say that DEI or EDI is truly part of the DNA of the organization.
It is reflected in all of our systems. When you think about the entire employee lifecycle and we're seeing behaviors and we're able to measure those behaviors that are demonstrating full support of diversity, equity and inclusion. So those are the eight steps in a nutshell, but lots of details, of course, around all of them in the book.
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Nadia Nagamootoo 19:50
Hi there. If you're enjoying this episode and want to further expand your thinking and develop your leadership, I've written a book that you might find useful. It's called Beyond Discomfort, Why Inclusive Leadership is So Hard and What You Can Do About It.
The book is framed around a new model of inclusive leadership, which explores four belief systems and offers pause for reflection on how you view diversity, equity and inclusion, or DEI for short. You'll gain new perspectives of some of the knotty DEI concepts, learn about the experiences of others who may be different to you and develop an appreciation for alternative truths. Whether you're new to DEI or have spent many years developing your knowledge, whether you're a business leader or DEI practitioner, my book offers a comprehensive learning opportunity. It gives you tools, tips, and advice to lead beyond discomfort, both individually as a leader and how to create systemic inclusion in the workplace. So if this sounds useful to you, check out the information in the show notes and click on the link to get your copy of Beyond Discomfort. Back to the episode.
What I love about the book is the stories how much you share and the practical tools within each step. Let's go to the first step though, initially. So decide this can't wait. And of course, we know from various kind of research, Kotter and all of the rest, you know, that burning platform, right? The urgency, the sense of urgency, this can't wait. And yet there will always be resistors. There'll always be people who just won't buy in. Hopefully not necessarily the very top of the organization, but potentially. And I'm wondering, how do you get that balance between getting enough support in the organization for those people so that you get that sense of urgency and this can't wait, knowing that there'll probably be a certain few or handful that you'll never be able to convince that this is the way forward. So have you got maybe an example of those tensions and how do you work through them?
Dr. Sandra Upton 21:56
I think the first thing we have to understand is that resistors matter, but they don't matter the most. And so it's really important to understand that. So there are people who will resist and we should make some attempt to understand why they are resisting. And we should make some attempt to bring them into the fold. And actually, because again, it's such a hot topic, you'll notice in the book that I donated an entire chapter on resistors, because again, people resist for lots of different reasons. So understanding that, understanding the psychology behind that, I think is important. And so that's the part when I say they matter. I mean, don't pretend like they're not out there. Don't make an effort. Don't not make an effort to bring them along. But at some point, once you've done the due diligence and understanding, and once you've done the work in terms of trying to bring them along, at some point you have to then say, we're gonna keep moving forward whether you are on board or not.
And at some point it may be one of those things where, and this is where leadership of course is so incredibly important in the conversation, but at some point it may end up being one of those situations where if you can't get on board with this work, this might not be the best organization for you to work. Some point, the leadership has to make that decision. So having that in mind that resistors matter, but they don't matter the most. And so that's not where you spend the majority of your energy. You give it some, but you balance that out. And again, I think the strategies on how to think through that. And then I also, in the book, give you some benchmarks around how do you measure what's enough support to really feel like you can get the kind of momentum that's necessary to make the work last. And so I kind of break that down thinking about different levels of the organization. At the very top, and when I say top, I'm talking CEO and C-suite, VP level, you should have 100% support, 100% support. Once you go down another level and you think about middle managers, you should have at least 75% of your managers on board. And ideally, of course, we want 100%. And so again, you want to push your energy into trying to get that 25% on board. But if you got at least 75% at that middle level, that's a good group. And then if we go down to the next level of the organization, you want to have the majority of your employees on board. And so if you think about 100% top, at least 75%, not to say that we don't want the other 25, but at minimum 75%. And then the majority of the employees, if you know that you've got that level of support, that puts you in a position to really get some serious traction on the work and move it in the direction where the work will last.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:52
Yeah, and it's great to have that sort of ballpark figures just to kind of go, do we have that? Because actually, if we don't, then all that resource, energy, time that we're putting in, we're not gonna be maximizing the benefits because there's too many people here who resist and aren't bought in. So we need to do some fundamental foundational work initially to address that. Yeah, let's move to step three because I was very interested in that building the route or the roadmap, okay? Which has a really clear DEI vision and goal. And often I've kind of had conversations with executives, leaders, and they're really, I suppose, hesitant or feeling anxious or fearful potentially about putting a line in the sand.
Because actually, if they put a line in the sand and say, this is our strategy, this is what we're aiming for. For example, quotas or targets or whatever the goals are, representation goals or whatever it is, that if they don't make it, if they don't get there, then what does that say? What's the narrative that they then would then need to put out, claw back kind of some of their reputation because it didn't happen for some reason. And I do think that there is some sort of anxiety about setting DEI goals. So how do we support organizations to overcome some of those anxieties?
Dr. Sandra Upton 26:21
I think so much of it, again, if they do steps one and two well, that should calm them down a little bit and it should better position them. Because again, if they've done the work in getting buy-in, right? Here's why we're doing this work. Here are the factors that are influencing internal and external. So if they've done a good job at step one, so part of, again, when they get to step three, they're so nervous and uncomfortable is because they've not done the work in steps one and two. So again, if they've done the work to get the necessary buy-in, to have the conversations, and at that point they're helping people understand, again, they're answering questions, they're having open dialogue, they're being transparent, right? So they're laying the foundation for things. And when you do that, again, not that things will go perfectly when you put the plan together, but you're in a much better position to get people to be ready to help move the work forward, understanding that it won't be perfect and understanding that you'll make mistakes along the way. The same thing with step two, if you've taken the time to put together the right governance structure around the work and you have equipped people to help lead the work, that also helps you once you get to that strategy stage.
So I think, again, the first part of my answer to your question is don't skip steps one and two. I think that the second thing is when you take the time to really look at the data and then use that to inform what should be your strategic areas of focus, that gives you a sense of confidence. Like, you know, we really did our homework in assessing where the gaps are, where the disparities are, where the greatest needs are. And so it makes sense that we focus on these different things and then we can communicate that to people. Like we're choosing to focus on talent acquisition because we're not doing a good job of attracting people of color or we're not doing a good job of retaining people from the neurodiversity community. You know, so that data is so powerful and it gives you confidence in really putting together a strategy that's meaningful. And then I think the other piece of that is when we talk about numbers and quotas, it's not about setting quotas. Again, it's about looking at the data and saying, based on this data, we're focusing on where we need to get stronger, but also communicating that, let's say, you know, we wanna do a better job of retention and specifically retaining individuals from the Gen Z community.
And the data is telling us that we are losing our Gen Zs. You know, they're leaving us for whatever reason. And so we use that data to put together a retention strategy that will help us attract and retain more Gen Zers, but that strategy likely will influence some policy or system. And once we get that in place, guess what? Now we've got a good system in place to better retain everybody. So initially the goal was to meet a need and a gap around a certain cultural group. But once we put that in place, everybody's gonna benefit from that. And so when you are doing the work in that kind of systematic way and you're communicating that to people, it helps people see that, again, it's not gonna be a perfect journey, but we're using data to drive our decisions and we're developing policies and systems that will benefit everyone. And it's not a zero-sum game, right?So I think if they followed that mindset in those steps, you end up creating a plan and a strategy that although we may have to target certain groups, because again, the data is showing that they've not had the same opportunities as others. We're setting up new systems and practices that will benefit everybody in the organization.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:14
Yeah, and I love that. And I love what you said there around, this is about communicating and being almost vulnerable in the sense of like, we might not get hit all of our targets or ambitions, but this is what our endeavor is. And this is what we're trying to achieve. And almost get everyone involved in supporting that endeavor. Because then it's not just the leaders who have all the organization that hasn't met a particular goal that they put in the DEI strategy for 2025 or whatever. And let's just say they don't achieve it fully, then it's everyone's accountability.
It's everyone's responsibility. Okay, we didn't get there. Let's reflect why .Let's learn from that. What is the next line in the sand that we need to put and what needs to happen in order for us to achieve it? So I think that there's something there around that collective accountability and it not solely just a discreet group of people. Let's move on to kind of the next phase of the Propel framework, which is around introducing new DEI practices. And there's a story that you share, which I really loved about your daughter when she was a young girl, the socks that she decided to wear. And if you wouldn't mind sharing that story, because it's a great story, I'd love to hear you tell it. And also the purpose of sharing that story was, how does that help us understand diversity, equity and inclusion a little bit better?
Dr. Sandra Upton 31:35
Yeah, absolutely. Part of introducing new practices that requires both making a commitment to change behaviors, which is that whole step five in the process, developing DEI superheroes. But that also is part of the process where we are turning our systems and our policies and practices and routines upside down, right? And really having honest conversations around where did those policies come from? And we all know that oftentimes they come from values that have been influenced and they've worked well for the dominant culture and not necessarily not so well for other cultures that have been historically marginalized. And so we have these set of rules, again, these shared values that have guided and continue to guide how we operate and how we do things around here.
And so we have to turn that all upside down and say, I always start out with a simple question when we're looking at policies and practices. And I say, just ask the simple question, does this policy serve as a benefit or barrier to our commitment to this work? And if it supports what we're trying to do, then hey, we're in good shape, let's keep moving. But if it serves as a barrier, right? If it limits other people or certain groups from thriving, if it limits promotional opportunities for certain groups, if it limits certain people from applying for jobs, then that's a problem. It's this whole idea of let's be honest about who created these rules in the first place and who were they designed to benefit and let's challenge all of that.
And so the story with my daughter was when she was in elementary school, she was getting ready for school one day and she came ready to go and she had mixed match socks on, like a polka dot sock and a stripe sock. And I said to her, those socks don't match. She looked at me and challenged me. She goes, who decided that? And I just remember thinking like, that is a very good decision.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:30
Right, who says that my socks don't match, right?
Dr. Sandra Upton 33:34
What matches and what doesn't. Yeah, exactly. And so that is a fantastic question.And whoever decided it, it doesn't matter because what color socks you wear has zero to do with your ability to go to school and learn and engage. And in fact, if you're just free, because you're not bound by this pressure to come in here with match socks, who knows what could happen in terms of your educational experience. And so from that day on, I never challenged what she wore to school, whether that was mixed match socks or polka dot top and striped pants, whatever you wanna wear, you go for it.
It was just, I thought really powerful example. If we propel that idea inside an organization, it's the same thing again, when we look at these policies and practices that have been created, who made those decisions and who were they designed to benefit? Let's back up a little bit and think about what policies are preventing us from being great as an organization and from an example in the book around tattoos, and things that we determine that are not professional. Who decided what's professional? It's okay to have certain guidelines and standards. We can talk about that.
There are certain things that we can decide as a culture, this is how we wanna represent the organization, but that's very different from, again, just making decisions that were determined by one cultural group that didn't give any consideration to other culture groups. And again, have zero to do, often times have zero to do with a person's ability to do their job.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:14
Yeah, it's great. Because what I love about that story is that it just tackles the deep, systemic kind of structures, frameworks that are so deeply embedded in society and just in our belief systems. Like I would have done exactly the same as you. I would have looked at my daughter's socks and gone, well, look, what are you wearing on your feet? And it's so right. And what I love about just young people in general is that ability to go, says who? And for us to kind of take that moment. And if we can apply that childlike kind of curiosity in organizations and to be able to throw that back so that there's some safety within the organization where you can, no matter who you are, say, says who? Why are we doing it this way?
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If we wouldn't mind skipping to step six swiftly to plan DEI victories. And you say the DEI journey is never ending, but we're human. We need to see progress if we're going to keep going, right? And 100% that motivation where humans need to feel like we've got something we're working to and that actually that we've achieved something that we can celebrate, right? And I wondered if you have any examples of effective and really positive ways that you've seen organizations just celebrate the little wins and do a good job of that continual kind of celebration of success at each step.
Dr. Sandra Upton 37:28
Yeah. The organizations that I've seen do well and understand just that point that it's not just big wins, it's the small wins. And so don't feel like you can't celebrate until you're able to come back and say, we've increased the number of women in leadership by 75%. And that's great to work towards that goal and you want to do the right things to get there. But there are lots of things that often have to happen before you can get to that big celebration. And so acknowledge that small wins are just as important and powerful as big wins.
And again, it goes back to looking at your data. You know, one of the things when I think about organizations that I work with and when I explain the eight steps in the framework and I talk about this in the book as well, before I start to unpack those eight steps, most organizations think they're much farther along than they really are. And then when I start to break it down, we have to do right, here's what you have to do step one, here's what you have to, and then they're like, well, if you put it like that, probably at step one. But it's to say, let's be honest, because again, if we're not honest and we don't honor the truth, then again, we jump ahead step four or five thinking we are, and then we wonder again, why the work isn't sticking or lasting. And so when we accept that reality and say, okay, we really are probably still in phase one, somewhere between one and two, you know, we're still building our tribe or we actually are still needing to get buy-in. That's a really good place to be.
So then by the time you get to step three, you realize, boy, we got a lot of work to do and that's okay. And so people will tend, if they get stuck in that idea, then they get overwhelmed. And I say, nope, let's unpack this now and let's start to break it down. And so if we know that we've got a lot of work to do, maybe we've not done even enough in terms of talent acquisition, right? We've got a whole lot of work to do just on the diversity front to really build a more diverse pipeline, to do a better job with our sourcing. We just have a lot of work to do. And so again, people can get really overwhelmed by that idea and I'll say, okay, if we've got a lot of work to do, I find a lot of organizations, you've got just some work to do. You don't even know what your data is. You don't even know what your numbers are even looking like in terms of how we are attracting diverse talent and what does that pipeline actually look like? And so what you might need to do as a first step is you might need to invest in purchasing some kind of software to begin doing a better job of tracking good quality data. I see that all the time. And so if that's a reality, that's okay, but that's a milestone, right? And so a small win might be, let's say you're kicking off your strategy at the top of the year, but in quarter one, you actually purchased a software system that system's in place. You're now collecting good quality data, even though the big picture goal might be ultimately you want to increase the pipeline, right, of diverse talent. That's the bigger picture goal. If that first has to be to get a system in place where we're just collecting good quality data, that's a win. That's a win. Celebrate that. You have a new system in place. It's a quality system. We're not able to track more. We can disaggregate the data. We've trained our staff. We're now communicating that data. So people have good solid data to now inform decisions. That's a big deal. Celebrate that.
And so I challenge organizations to, when you think about that bigger picture goal, let's break that down into pieces and set some goals quarterly. And then as we're setting those goals, let's attach that communications plan to that step four so that we're letting people know, no, we're not there yet, but here's another step that we've taken to move us closer to that bigger picture goal.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:33
Yeah. It's so important, that celebration. And what we know, obviously, is that, and you've quoted this in your book, that the number of change that fail. It's something like 70%. It's something ridiculous, right? And so when we get to step eight, it's such a vital step. Making it last. How do we know when DEI is part of the culture? How do we know when we have made it last and that it's just part of what we do here?
Dr. Sandra Upton 42:06
Yes. So two things. If we go back to the beginning, it's this idea that DEI is all about change and it's all about changing behaviors and changing systems. And so one of the major ways that we know is that we've been able to track and see behavior changes. We see behaviors that are demonstrating support for this commitment to DEI. And so we see people, they are more culturally intelligent. And as a result of their cultural intelligence, we know, again, there's extensive research around that, right? And so we know that means that they've developed skills. They've moved beyond just attitude change and being more sensitive to differences.
Those are all good things, but none of them guarantee that I'm going to be effective in my actions or in my leadership. And so we see people using cultural intelligence to engage with one another. We see people using cultural intelligence to make good decisions within the context of DEI, right? Seeing that they're working with diverse people.
We see people making better judgment and negotiating. We see people being more comfortable and free to be innovative. And so we see those behaviors that are common practice. And the way we measure that, again, is we can measure your cultural intelligence. So oftentimes we've built in some kind of assessment, that CQ assessment tool, where we can do a pre and post and we use a 360 on the back end. So that, again, Nadia comes in, we take you through training around cultural intelligence. We now help you see what your cultural intelligence is. We actually help you develop an action plan to improve your cultural intelligence. But then we can measure your behavior change on the back end by getting feedback from your peers to say, oh, Nadia, I absolutely feel included when I'm part of her team. I absolutely feel psychologically safe when I'm part of her team. So now we can measure behavior change.
So then we can see the data around that. And if we know that the majority of our people are operating and behaving with cultural intelligence, then we know we're in that eight, right? Alongside that, we know that our systems are working. And we can honestly say that when we look at our systems and practices throughout that entire employee life cycle, that they really are serving as a benefit and not a barrier. Both of those things are going to infiltrate the culture. And you begin to see people share in those values. And it just ekes out of everything that we do. That culture then shifts, which we know that doesn't happen overnight, of course. And I think the other, the last thing I'll say to that is, you notice with the framework, there are the eight steps, but you see that there are arrows that keep taking us around, right?
And as we know that because DEI is truly a journey, we always have to keep asking ourselves questions at each step of the process. Because if we think back to step one, there are different reasons why we need to keep doing the work. In 2020, everybody jumped up because of George Floyd. And many of us are still invaded by that horrific incident. But there are other things that change. So today we might be motivated because again, our retention numbers with our Gen Zs are awful. And if we can't keep them in the organization, we're going to struggle in terms of competing. Then we might have new data that gives us another level of urgency so that you need to go through the cycle and using that to inform how we further develop and evolve the strategy is just as important as getting to that step eight.
Nadia Nagamootoo 45:50
Yeah, and that feeds into this sort of question that I'd had, which was around sustainability. So what you're saying is that just because you can see some cultural change and some cultural intelligence being applied across the organization, some more mature conversations, being able to challenge constructively and hear different perspectives, that actually as the world around us shifts, as our organization shifts, as the marketplace shifts and the industry competition changes, all of that, we're living in a constantly moving landscape that we need to continuously be looking at, well, what's the new sense of urgency here? What really matters now and going through that cycle and building, continuing to build?
Dr. Sandra Upton 46:32
Absolutely. Leadership cannot get relaxed. Leadership has to be fully engaged every step of the way. There's never any point in this process or journey that leadership can sit back and kind of coast. And when I say leadership, I'm talking about the top, right? I'm talking about CEO, not just the CDO, but leadership because we know, especially when we look at the change management research, if leadership starts to get comfortable and say, okay, well, we gave you the push, we've given you the resources and now just go and do it and report back to us on how things are going.
We know that if leadership gets comfortable, especially at that step eight, and if there's not a succession plan in place, I mean, you have to continue to develop superheroes and equip people to succeed others and keep that pipeline of leadership engaged in the work. If you don't do those two things at that step eight, the old culture will absolutely reassert itself and it will be back to where you started and we're at least several steps backwards.
Nadia Nagamootoo 47:36
Even when you feel like you've made progress, there needs to be a constant vigilance and awareness of what's going on. It's almost like that learning to drive, isn't it? You can't just sit into the car for the first time and off you go. You have to constantly think about shifting gears and checking your mirror and which way to turn the steering wheel in a very clunky way. And so, of course, if you stop paying attention for a little while at that point where you're just still learning and it's not deeply embedded, you can't rely on automation. You're going to crash somewhere, you're going to hit something or something's going to go a little bit wrong. So that's really important for everyone to remember as you go through and try and sustain that change.
Dr. Sandra Upton 48:16
Absolutely.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:17
Final question. So my book, Beyond Discomfort, is all about the emotions that DEI evokes and how that might limit leaders in their inclusive practices. So this season, I'm asking all my guests to share a personal story that highlights a discomfort that you've experienced with DEI and how you navigated that.
Dr. Sandra Upton 48:41
Sure, that's a great question. One of the things that I talk about in the book, like you mentioned, I share a lot of stories and some of those stories are my own personal lived experiences, right? And I talk about the fact that just because I've had a successful career and I've been in senior leadership roles and I'm doing the DEI work that has not made me exempt from microaggressions and biases and discrimination over my career. And so when those things happen, I have to make a choice in terms of how I choose to respond. And I have to make a choice to practice what I preach in terms of responding. And that's not always easy.
I share this story in the book about how my husband and I went to an event, the organization that I was with before when I was one of the executives. And we went to an event and we sat down at a table and the woman, elderly Caucasian woman, asked my husband how I knew the president of the company who happened to be a white male. And my husband said, well, my wife worked with him. And she goes, oh, so are you his scheduler? And, you know, in those moments, it's annoying, you know, it's irritating. It makes you angry and it's exhausting.
Nadia Nagamootoo 49:53
Absolutely. I got annoyed when I read that.
Dr. Sandra Upton 49:55
So I talk about those moments, you know, how do I show up and how do I choose to respond? And so I talk about this idea of calling people in versus calling them out. And I was reading this article not that long ago that talked about, you know, let's go beyond calling in and let's call people forward. I get that. But it's this idea of not shaming, not attacking. And so I did. I chose in that moment to call her in. But I remind people that calling in doesn't mean that you abdicate people of their responsibility, that it doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable. And so in that situation, my response to her was, no, I'm not his scheduler. I'm actually one of the vice presidents at the organization. But I'm curious to know what made you assume that I was a scheduler. So it, you know, created space for some uncomfortable conversation. But that's not always easy, you know. And so there is this tension between, you know, being someone, a woman of color and part of those historically marginalized groups. You're always trying to find that balance of practicing what you preach and calling in versus calling out. So I think it's those moments that make the work challenging, because, again, it's a reminder that just because I'm doing this work and leading organizations, I am not exempt from being a recipient of the very things I'm trying to teach others how to manage.
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:15
Totally. Thank you for sharing that example. And thank you so much, Sandra, for joining me. What such a fascinating conversation. I'd love to hear what you're doing next with the book, but also the Propel framework. What are some of the things that you're working on?
Dr. Sandra Upton 51:31
Yeah, so the book continues to do well, and I'm super grateful for that. It is continuing to hit markets across the globe, and I am planning to do an audio version of the book soon. I've had several people ask about that and it is on my to do list. So that's coming out in the very near future. But the DEI Propel course, as you mentioned, it is really a live version of the book. It's where I bring people together in a live setting.I'm facilitating and I'm walking people through the eight steps with the goal to help them develop a roadmap for their organization. I'm coming to London this fall and will be facilitating an in-person DEI Propel course that will be on October the 2nd, which is a Wednesday. I'm very excited about coming back to London.The book has been very well received there and I think the course will be as well. We'd love to see some folks sign up.
Nadia Nagamootoo 52:22
For sure. So how can people get more information if they want to follow you or contact you or indeed about the Propel course?
Dr. Sandra Upton 52:29
Yeah, for sure. I'm on a number of social media platforms, but I'm most active on LinkedIn. So check me out. You can go and connect with me there, but you can also find out more about the work that I do on the website. And then you can learn more about some of the other services and products that we offer. And so that website address is www.UptonConsultingGroup.com.
So you can reach me that way. And then if you want to just direct message at my team that it would be info@UptonConsultingGroup.com.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:00
Wonderful. Well, the link to everything that Sandra and I have spoken about today, again, is going to be on the usual place in the show notes of the podcast show. So thank you so much, Sandra, for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure to go deeper into Make It Last with you.
Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for everything that you're doing in the diversity, equity and inclusion space. Thank you for your thought leadership and for ultimately joining me today to share.
Dr. Sandra Upton 53:27
Thank you so much for having me. I'm just so thrilled that we have connected and we are officially joined at the hip. So we will stay connected. I look forward to continuing to explore ways in which you and I can partner.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:38
Thank you. That concludes episode 42 of Why Care. This is possibly one of the most practical how to do DEI conversations I have had to date on the show. I see how often organizations struggle to generate collective energy and buy in to DEI. The common pitfalls that mean resources are often wasted because they are focused in the wrong place. Sandra has offered a golden ticket to successful DEI. So grateful to her for sharing this. Do let Sandra and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Insta with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Jenny Lynton for getting it out there on social media.
