Why Care? #41: The Power of Prose with Tegan Summer
“You know, it comes down to a choice, what do you want to produce? How do you want to be seen? What do you want to represent? I often say that a lot of opportunities are born in concept, not in execution. You can brainstorm as much as you want to. But if there's a cul de sac of a thought, it will go nowhere. I like to open up the lanes. I want to produce a shows that has to have reach even if it's failed. And it's a slow burn over time. That again is time and experiences. That's what they give you, especially in the diversity sector. That's why the show that I'm a producer on as you know, Black Boys Who Have Considered Suicide When the Hue Gets Too Heavy by Ryan Calais Cameron, it's a representation to the nth degree for the broadcast audience, and that's rare. That's a choice. No IMAX theaters, royal court new drama, etc. That's a choice that they and we all made to open up eyes, thoughts and minds.”
Welcome to the Season 5 premiere of the Why Care? podcast! In this episode, host Nadia Nagamootoo sits down with the incredibly talented Tegan Summer, a distinguished writer, producer, and lyricist whose work has graced Broadway and the West End. Get ready for an inspiring and thought-provoking conversation about the transformative power of theatre and the importance of diversity and representation in the arts.
Highlights
Tegan's Journey: From his roots in the East End of London to becoming a prominent figure in the theatrical world, Tegan shares his unique path and the experiences that shaped his career.
The Magic of Theatre: Discover how sneaking into West End rehearsals as a child ignited Tegan's passion for theatre and how this magic continues to drive his work today.
Representation Matters: Tegan discusses the challenges he faced as a Black writer and producer in a predominantly white industry and the importance of creating space for diverse voices.
The Impact of Music: Learn about the power of songs in theatre, especially the "I Want" song, and how they can inspire and empower audiences.
Behind the Curtain: Get a glimpse into Tegan's research process for his latest project, "Mozart: Her Story," a musical about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's overlooked sister, Nan Mozart.
Upcoming Projects: Exciting details about Tegan's future works, including shows on James Dean, Malcolm X, and Harvey Milk, and his collaboration with Tony Award-winning director Susan Stroman.
Key Takeaways
Theatre as an equaliser and its role in fostering empathy and understanding across diverse audiences.
The importance of representation in the arts and how Tegan's work is breaking barriers and setting new standards.
The intersection of creativity and social change, and how theatre can be a powerful tool for activism and inclusion.
Guest Bio
Tegan Summer is a celebrated writer, producer, and lyricist with a rich history in theatre. His work spans various genres and mediums, from Broadway to the West End, and he is known for his dedication to bringing underrepresented stories to the stage. Tegan's upcoming projects continue to push the boundaries of traditional theatre, highlighting his commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Key Links
Tegan Summer Theatricals: Tegan Summer Theatricals Website
Tegan Summer Instagram: @tegansummer
Buy tickets to Mozart: Her Story at the Lyric theatre, London on Monday 18th November
Avenir Consulting: https://linktr.ee/avenirconsultingservices
Purchase your copy of my book: Beyond Discomfort: Why inclusive leadership is so hard (and what you can do about it)
Transcript
Tegan Summer 00:00
When I see Amelia Earhart's plight, I see my sisters. I see my mother. I see my female friends who are going through a lack of visibility, a lack of a sense of belonging and drive, and ambition. And how do you get back on the horse when you're knocked off 15 times? So at some point, my skin color, my gender, indeed my pronouns, everything that makes us who we are, at some point we're human beings, Nadia. And we sometimes forget that in our lives, theater, politics. Sometimes we are simply human beings that just want to be loved. And the word kindness is now seen as secondary, respect, third down the line. I'm trying to make theater the equalizer, trying to make my writing, my work, the equalizer in diversity. It's not a level playing field because nothing's level, it's not. Sometimes you aren't born into a level playing field, it's as simple as that, right? But what I am attempting to do with my work and my lovely team with whom I work is, what I'm trying to do is make our space and position the best it can be. And if someone is at that level or has that space or seen our experiences, then the system can work for everybody.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:50
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring?
I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection.
Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work. Hello, and welcome to Season 5 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. I decided to put a spin on things this season. Yes, you will hear from voices of DEI thought leaders in the corporate world and authors of DEI books, but I was also interested in learning more about how DEI interfaces with all aspects of our daily lives, and what better way to kick things off than by entering the wonderful world of theatre.
I am deeply honoured to be joined by Tegan Summer, a West End and Broadway producer, a member of the Broadway League and Society of London Theatre, and CEO of Tegan Summer Theatricals. The list of incredible productions he has been involved in is honestly too long for me to reel off, but recently he was a producer on Andrew Lloyd Webber and LIMAX Theatre's 2023 revival of Aspects of Love at the Lyric Theatre in London's West End, and he also produced Four Black Boys Who Have Considered Suicide When the Hue Gets Too Heavy, which just ended its run in the West End.
In our conversation, we discuss Tegan's love of theatre as a young boy and how he navigated much of his career being the only black theatre producer, but also how he doesn't let this define him. We talk about his passion and inner values of bringing important diversity-related narratives to his audiences, using his talent as a producer, librettist and lyricist to enhance people's empathy and connection to those who are different to them. This guides all his decisions in the shows he writes and produces, from Amelia Earhart's story of following her dream to be a pilot despite being surrounded by misogyny, Marilyn Monroe, to James Dean, and the upcoming UK production of Mozart Her Story. Which tells the story of Nan Mozart, Wolfgang's sister, who never got the chance to be the pianist she most desperately desired to be. For those of you who know me, you know how much I adore the theatre. Being absorbed into the characters and letting the music take you on an emotional journey. It can connect us to someone else's world. And so to use theatre as a tool to create more inclusion in society is genius. Say no more. Here's Tegan. Enjoy. A huge welcome. Tegan Summer, thank you so much for joining me on Why Care? You can tell I'm very excited.
Tegan Summer 05:46
No, it's an absolute pleasure. Honestly, it's really good to be here. I do love what you stand for and the podcast and what you write. So it's an honour. It really is.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:56
I mean, I have to say you have a lot of faith in meeting when you meet new people, because you and I met just over some exchanged looks and smiled and then struck up a conversation before I know it. You've said yes to having a short conversation with me before agreeing to this recording. So I have to say thank you so much for being so generous.
So for those who don't know you, it's an incredible list that I could reel off in terms of what you've written, produced. You're a lyricist. You've had some huge Broadway and West End productions. Would you mind just giving some of the highlights? Because obviously we've only got a short period of time with you, so we can't go through everything. But some highlights of your career.
Tegan Summer 06:41
I was born and raised in Forest Gate in the East End of London. And my haunt then was Theatre Royal Stratford East in Philip Hedley's tenure. And we used to hang out there with Philip and Barbara Windsor, etc. So it was really a wonderful time to grow up in theatre, seeing these wonderful legends do what they do. And I didn't know their status or stature. I didn't know when I ran to the West End to sneak into rehearsals. It was Colm Wilkinson in Les Mis or Lea Salonga in Miss Saigon. I was just this little Afro kid, latchkey kid, running to the West End after school instead of staying home by myself watching Laurel & Hardy or Thelma Todd and Zasu Pitts and enjoying watching this magic being born for West End and Broadway stages. So once I came to learn what it is I was witnessing, the magic took over. The magic took over.
And my life went from being very hardworking at school, which I was, very proud of my upbringing at school, and into a world where people are creating something from nothing and the magic of that, creating something that can last decades, permeate societies and thoughts and minds and inspire from being didactic through purely entertainment, which takes you away from your life for five minutes when we all need a break, a palate cleansing reset of the mind, shall we say, and with people that look like you on stage or your sisters or your brothers, it just opens up a world of possibilities. And I had that from soup to nuts from the East End to the West End. And then traveling from the East Coast of America to the West Coast of America, so many opportunities of meeting different experiences that we can collate and bring back to what you do and who you are. And that's why I've come home to London and London's West End. I've been in America for 20 years. I felt it was time. And your question is somewhere buried in this answer in terms of my achievements, our shows, et cetera. I mean, we can do that. Obviously, we could all go to my bio or my website and see the shows I've worked on. But ostensibly for me, in my heart, the achievement, Nadia, is engaging with those that need a voice, those that want a voice, those that want to care, but don't have the framework to. Theatre for me is that mechanism.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:20
Oh, it's so powerful, isn't it? That you can connect with characters on stage. I think it helps with having empathy for a different story to yours as well, so it can really open people's minds. And we will come on to how you have used in your career, your talent, your ability to write and produce in order to create change in society and in people. And we will come on to that. But you mentioned about you as a young boy, and I wouldn't mind just taking you back to those days. I can hear you, that love of theatre was there from the beginning. You'd go off and you'd see what you could possibly sneak into and have a look at in terms of what was going on and feel the love already for theatre at that young age. So are you saying that it was just a calling almost, that it was something that you knew that there was no other place you wanted to be and have a career?
Tegan Summer 10:17
I mean, look, Sherlock Holmes and Freud can take a day off with me. I'm the youngest child, so it's all so bad. Finding a home, finding a place of expression that you normally would not find at home in a working class family with a very large family. And especially when the rest of my siblings were girls, women. My brother was in the army for a spell and he was away. My father was absent. So it was a large female household. My auntie as well was there for a while with my mother. And so I did, at that time, I was looking for a place to find, to roost in, to settle in, into, and I found that in theatre and the communal love of that carny system. Look, if we were in the 20s or 30s, 1920s or 30s, we'd be carnies. We are modern day carnies today. It's what we do. I mean, we are writing and performing on stages and touring. That's a carny. And that old system of universal love comes from that. You're an orphan. You're displaced. Come here in our troupe and find a home. And that's what today is in theatre. It's just done with more money in beautiful, large houses called venues or called theatres. But that's who we are. I never want to lose that. It's a place where everyone can find a home. That's why I'm so proud of the shows that we're producing now, because they shine a light on those not normally represented in theatre. Not normally, not typically, of course, there are exceptions to the rule. Of course, there are places where you find commonalities and similar themes, but really not so much.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:05
I mean, talking about exceptions to the rule, you are an exception to the rule in many ways, right? How many Black writers, producers, lyricists are there in the industry, and particularly when you were a young lad? I don't imagine there were role models. How do you navigate that, knowing, I suppose, that you're probably breaking a few barriers?
Tegan Summer 12:32
Honestly, when I was younger, I was just influenced by the best people, and they were an eclectic bunch. And I'll get to that in a moment. Only now that I'm older, I realized that I represent, that I'm representing, and there are others that are looking to what I do, not with any self-aggrandizement, not with any delusions of grandeur, believe me. I was born in Forest Gate in St. Mary's Hospital. There are no delusions of grandeur, basically. My home life was top boy, so I had a choice between a top boy style of type of environment and life, or go and write pretty songs and scripts for a living.
And I chose the latter, and I've never looked back. And right now, the Society of London Theatre, I'm the only Black full member. There are associate members as well, but I'm the only Black full member in the Society of London Theatre. I'm one of a few Black producers in the Broadway League. I'm finding with every quarter, I'm receiving with increased regularity. Can we meet in the office? Can we talk?
Nadia Nagamootoo 13:40
Oh wow.
Tegan Summer 13:41
I'm writing this. I don't know how to get that. This week, we'll talk about mentorship, devising programs, DEI, or EDI, depends on what side of the Atlantic we're on. DEI here, EDI there, chips and fries he can eat. That's what it is for me. And it's strange. It was strange for a youngest child to then become the mentor. He was always the mentee. Always the youngest. Always the last lamb in the flock. And time does that. Experience does that. But honestly, my writing, being a book writer, lyricist, lead producer, GP, traveling the world, speaking to people, I want those experiences to be infused in my writing and my life. And I'm happy that it's happening right now. I really am. And I want everyone who wants to pursue this path, this honorable part of telling stories on stage. I mean, it goes back to myth and legend and Aesop. And these stories stand the test of time. This is a legacy-building industry. I love me a good play. I do. I'm a playwright, but I'm also a songwriter and a lyricist.
And there's nothing for me that can encapsulate what somebody is going through in their lives where they want change, but they feel trapped, where they want change, but they cannot find a path or avenue, Nadia, where they want change. But there's no one to exact that change for them. And they have no structure to exact that change. A song can do that. A song can inspire. It can break through the glass ceiling of your mind in terms of what you feel you can or cannot do. It's odd. I always say this in my office. There is a life in a song.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:32
And what's your song that lifts you, that has helped you just change, see something new when you needed it?
Tegan Summer 15:40
I know I'm going to sound like I'm not being as specific as one would like. But again, for me, because I'm a writer, it's the format of song as opposed to a song. Because there are so many that touched it. I'm a mixed bag of nuts, aren't I? So there are so many that touch so many parts of me that I can relate to. My Caribbean heritage, there are songs in the Caribbean culture. My English, I'm a very proud Londoner. As being a proud Caribbean, my parents are from Barbados. So I have that Caribbean heritage. Obviously, Afro-Caribbean, my London West End theatre heritage. I spent 20 years in New York, LA, Las Vegas, and beyond. I am definitely a quintessential Caribbean Brit with a sprinkling of strong Americanism in me as well. Yeah, you can't live in America for 20 years and not be influenced. And I like to think I've taken the best of all cultures that would culminate in who I am today and the best people.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:43
So what was the format of the song?
Tegan Summer 16:46
There are two songs. The I Want song, lead character, that's self-explanatory. It's the I Want song, where you realize what your stakes have been building up to. And because you can't express it in dialogue anymore, it mouthlessly erupts in an I Want song. And boy, when you see an I Want song, you tend to reach for the stars and you don't mind if your feet leaves the ground for a moment. And that is a springboard for everything in my life. If something's not happening, if something's not moving the way I want, I say, Tegan, is it you? Of course, a large part of that or a small part of that, I'm a part of that mechanism of accountability. And if there's something in my reach, boy, does the I Want song come out, even if it's far down the track.
If I'm on the marathon, I'm on mile one and it's 26 miles, I am on mile five by the end of that song. So the I Want song is key for me, the I Want, because you know what, it sounds like an easy framework, how I just pictured it, but it goes back to, we can't get it. We aren't qualified.
You aren't supposed to have that in your life. And I was always the outlier. I'm an outlier today. I'm not this, that's not a sad story. It's just a fact. I was always an outlier. As you said, I've always been different. I never knew why or how. I know now because I have different experiences. When everyone was in school wearing tradles and playing basketball, I put on shoes. I went to the West End and snuck in for free at the Royal Festival Hall and snuck backstage to meet Dame Judy and Sir Anthony Hopkins and I wondered what I was doing there. And then we struck up friendships.
I mean, I've always done that. I had no rules. I didn't break the law. I'm scorned, but I had no rules because I don't see rules. I see opportunities. I see seize the day whilst being respectful, not reckless, not with abandon. But the I Want song gives us that agency to reach for something that others said we can't have, shouldn't have, and will not have. Believe me, by the end of that song, live, dry feeling, I will have it, if only in my mind.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:16
What I love about that is obviously you write I Want songs, right? And that you can infuse that feeling into your audience, that what you've just described, that people can carry that song with them and leave that theatre feeling like they're at mile five as opposed to mile one in the marathon. And that's incredible to be able to achieve that in what you do. And I know just from your own story, how much diversity, equity, inclusion is so important to you.
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What do you see then as the, I suppose, the responsibility of theatre and for you in your role to be able to enable or enact or facilitate societal change when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion?
Tegan Summer 21:14
Choices, you know, it comes down to a choice. What do you want to produce? How do you want to be seen? What do you want to represent? I often say this, a lot of opportunities are born in concept, not execution. You can brainstorm as much as you want to, but if there's a cul-de-sac of a thought, it will go nowhere. I like to open up the lanes, and I'm saying to myself, I want to produce shows that have reach, even if it's veiled and it's a slow burn over time. That's why the show that I'm a producer on, as you know, for Black Boys Who Have Considered Suicide When The Heat Gets Too Heavy by Ryan Kelly Cameron, is representation to the nth degree for the broadcast audience, and that's rare. That's a choice, LIMAX Theatres, Royal Court, New Dorama, etc., that's a choice that they and we all made to open up eyes, thoughts, and minds, and it worked to that degree. It's a tricky pathway, Nadia. We have to think about what we want to do and how it reflects diversity. People say to me often, Tegan, why did you go and obtain the rights? That's not public domain, the indigenous stories, to Amelia Earhart? Right. And people laugh at me. They laugh at me to this day. I said, you have no idea. I mean, we talk about misogyny today, but can you imagine what Amelia Earhart went through in that era of 20s, obviously 30s, in terms of a woman, a female pilot, an aviatrix, at the height of misogyny? We have Charles Lindbergh, The Four, etc. What must she have gone through to fight to be where she is at the top? And people say to me, well, Tegan, you are a Black gentleman now in your 50s. Don't tell anybody. How are you relating to this 20-something woman from Kansas? How are you writing? How do you drop into her mind? And I say, you know what? What we go through is universal. When I see Amelia Earhart's plight, I see my sisters. I see my mother. I see my female friends who are going through a lack of visibility, a lack of a sense of belonging and drive, ambition. And how do you get back on the horse when you're knocked off 15 times? So at some point, my skin color, my gender, indeed my pronouns, everything that makes us who we are, at some point, we're human beings, Nadia, and we sometimes forget that in our lives, theater, politics. Sometimes we are simply human beings that just want to be loved, and the word kindness is now seen as secondary. Respect, third down the line.
I'm trying to make theater the equalizer, trying to make my writing, my work, the equalizer in diversity. It's not a level playing field because nothing's level. It's not. Let's just be honest. Sometimes you aren't born into a level playing field. Most of us aren't. It's as simple as that, right? But what I am attempting to do with my work and my lovely team with whom I work is make our space and position the best it can be. And if someone is at that level or has that space or has seen our experiences, then the system can work for everybody. Doesn’t matter if you're Amelia Earhart or Tegan Summer. Now, of course, my schooling, education, I have to do the R&D. The research and development into her life. Oh, I have to go to Kansas. I have to go to Atchison. I have to go everywhere that she was. Immense research for a year, which I've done over a year, two years, into Amelia Earhart so I can speak with her voice, so I can visit her homes. It's not hard work. That's the work. The rest is human.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:35
I love that. You've written about so many different characters, like Amelia Earhart, real people. Others, fictitious, but based. There's always a foundation to all of the characters. I'm curious, particularly moving on to Mozart, her story. What is that about? And my curiosity here is what did you need to do from a research perspective to really be able to write that and achieve what you have already achieved and will continue to achieve with that particular production and play, musical?
Tegan Summer 26:17
Well, there's another departure, really, from me, to a larger degree, as a woman in the 18th century.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:25
I mean, it's phenomenal.
Tegan Summer 26:26
Well, look, Mozart, Her story, the new musical, briefly is about Wolfgang Mozart's sister, Wolfgang Mozart's sister, Nan Mozart.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:35
I've never heard of her.
Tegan Summer 26:37
Colloquially, we call her Nan. She was known as Nan Mozart. She was arguably the greater composer, the better musician, four years old in the Wolfgang, but because she was a woman, of course, gets, in inverted commas, everybody, listening, not seeing this, get barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and they would knock on our door again with your creativity. So in a nutshell, our musical is about what Nan Mozart does to be heard and seen, well, her music heard and herself be seen.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:11
Where did you first come across this incredible story that you just, which obviously gripped you and thought, I need to do something with this?
Tegan Summer 27:19
Honestly, full circle. It did start with Wolfgang, 100%. I was researching. I thought we have Amadeus by Peter Shaffer, the play, et cetera. , the play, et cetera. I wanted to stay away from that, of course. Again, I love writing a musical. And I wanted to find a story beneath the story. What's behind this smile? What's behind the wizard's curtain? And I happened upon, because I love classical music, Wolfgang, Amadeus Mozart. I'm like, huh, okay. And I'm not kidding. This was, ah, they're adoring me. I heard on, is it an adventure or something? Rock Me Amadeus by Falco. The old 80s, the 80s hit.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:02
I know it. I'm an 80s girl. Exactly.
Tegan Summer 28:05
Thank you. And so the very same day in my office, I said to myself, oh, I want to work on Wolfgang. And I heard Rock Me Amadeus. And I'm like, okay, that's a sign. So I started doing some research and development. And Nan Mozart kept coming up. Nan Mozart and her full name and her husband, Johann Baptist Franz von Berchtold zu Sonnenburg, and Maria Anna Walburga Ignatia Mozart, all these fantastic, wonderful 18th century rich names and nicknames. I'm like, what is this tapestry of who they were? Are they from descendants, those names?
And so every time I dove in, her story came to the fore. Her story, her story, her story. I started to think and speak to some people. And out of that became Mozart, Her Story, the new musical. And I said, that's the story. My dramaturg and dear friend, Colette Friedman, she said to me one day, Tegan, Nan's the story. Nan's the story. I was right in the middle of it all. And Colette is one of my closest friends and dearest collaborators. And she's a champion for the female position as well. So it all just made sense when she said, Nan's the story. I said, right, I'm changing the story. Thank you, Colette. Blah, blah, blah. And I rewrote the whole show. Rewrote the whole show. I was researching Nan. I'd changed songs for her. And of course, being my dramaturg, I was writing everything by her. And she said, yeah, this is the story.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:38
It's been huge in America and beyond. You're bringing it to the UK. And I'm very excited for later this year. But what has been the impact so far?
Tegan Summer 29:50
Yes, November 18th at the Lyric Theatre.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:52
November the 18th at the Lyric Theatre. Yes, so that's where I'm going to be.
Tegan Summer 29:55
Shameless plug there, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:57
Not at all.
Tegan Summer 29:58
Awful of me. But yes, still the producer business right in my head.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:01
So November the 18th is where you'll find me and Tegan. Mozart, Her story. So, so far, why do you think audiences have been so gripped and taken with this production? What is it about her story that you think has really taken the audience to? What has gripped them about what you've written and what you've produced?
Tegan Summer 30:26
Two reasons. The humble part of me would say that's really for the audiences to respond to, really. I can only surmise from a creator's point of view. And exit interviews and fans and friends. They have been saying, historically, it's experiencing, again, that story of an outlier of a mind and talent. Because she was supremely talented.Again, arguably more talented than Wolfgang and taught him how to play in their formative years. They dueted as the Mozart Wunderkinds together, dueling keys. I mean, they were together. And seeing a woman, her life taken from her, her joy in creation and that joy in repetition taken away. And as if it was nothing. And so many young women today, from young women to middle-aged to our lovely senior citizens, can tell that story. In fact, the boomer generation and senior citizens, which I naturally assume would gravitate towards the show because they see a Mozart. And our musical is a rock, musical theater hybrid. I want to deliver it to all audiences. Yes. A lot of our songs that we've written, my collaborator Gregory Nabours and I, we've written rock songs with musical theater. We're fused in Wolfgang's classics, fused with our musical theater.
So it literally is the marriage of those three genres. So everyone's relating to this plucky girl's plight and how she maintains her dignity. I mean, imagine Nadia. There is our lead character who is told she cannot compose ever. I mean, literally the question was, your daughter is not to compose. For how long? Says Papa Mozart, Leopold. Forever. Bang. That is it. So then she has to be married off, of course, the dowry. And they were falling on hard times for a time in the Mozart household, et cetera. So it's about what she goes through, knowing that her stock in trade, her life, her essence, her spirit has been taken away to be replaced by something she never knew. And how many of us can be plucked out of our lives today into something we don't know and still function as if it's the norm. So it's navigating her sense of self being stripped and replacing it with something anew.
Whilst Wolfgang is having the time of his life, Papa Mozart can never tell the obvious actions, just wasn't done back in the day, but he was fighting for the family financially as well. Mama had limited resource and scope because, again, she's a woman. What more can she do except support her daughter? And then Mozart's wonderful husband, Johann, is just trying to support as much as he can. But even so, he's a Sonnenburg. He's not a Mozart. So everyone is relating to a challenge and a fight for their own sense of self and place, simple place in society. No matter what society you're in, we can all relate to that. And that's why the show is here.And that's why it's so well received. And I'm so blessed. And I have an amazing team that relates to everything I've just spoken of. And I really hope a West End audience can relate to it as well this November.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:56
I've got no doubt. The short bit that you just said to me and described, I hear so much of her story in me, even, I can relate to things. Even that empathy of what would it feel like if that was taken from me? So even if it hasn't happened to me, I was able to flourish. I was able to follow my path, which was around psychology and trying to make a difference and supporting people in the workplace from a diversity and inclusion. That's definitely my path. It's my passion. It's my purpose. What would that feel like if someone said, no, you can't do that?
Tegan Summer 34:34
That's it, done.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:36
And there'll be so many people who may have had to have given up something that actually, if they were allowed to follow a path, what would have happened? What would have been? And certainly people cover so much aspects of their identity because they don't feel it's possible in today's society. That really gets me how there's so many people out there who just feel like, if I'm actually authentically me in this world, that's not going to land well. So I'm going to need to change who I am. Right?
Tegan Summer 35:08
No, I go through that every single day as well. Gender is not a factor. The circumstances, I mean, only our own thoughts can steer the direction of travel. That's really where I live without any constraint. Now, we may have more challenges than most, but we cannot stop ever. That's why I only write bio-musicals, because I want to talk about the story of the human condition in every level, every space, every corner of the world, and see what we do have in common with our fellow man, and see where we are unique and indigenous, because that's the story of our makeup.
And those are the stories that the uniqueness of who we are, that's what translates to the stage best for me. Oh, that happened. Oh, you go through this, but I relate to that. That could have been me. Oh, I didn't know that. That keeps you past intermission. If I can keep you past intermission, that's why I normally now write 90-minute shows. There's no intermission. I want you to come back. That's a theatrical binge watch. Come back.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:16
Also, there's something magical, isn't it, when people leave that theatre, having related in some way to that character and to their story, or multiple character stories, that conversation continues. I've been to theatre, walked out, and started conversations with just people who are sitting around, and I didn't come in with them, but I left feeling that little bit connected to that audience, because there's something powerful about experiencing something together and relating to something together. And those conversations and connections, they're quite magical, I think, in acting change, right?
Tegan Summer 36:57
It's universal. And that's why I said earlier, theatre's the ultimate equaliser. It really is. It brings you into all of our worlds and spectrum in 90 minutes, in two hours and 20, with intermission.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:11
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Let's talk about your purpose and vision and legacy. And we've spoken about it a little bit and touched on it, but what continues, what underpins that drive in your work to continue finding these bios and new stories and continue to tell the world and reach as many people as possible? And you're very clear about the type of story you're after. It has to be something related to diversity of some kind, that something sort of a human struggle between who they are and what the world wants them to be or sees them as. So what underpins that? What's the legacy you want to leave?
Tegan Summer 38:42
The legacy I want to leave is really twofold. It's funny, Nadia, I don't truly, being honest, think about my legacy. My business life, I am the ultimate planner. My own life, I don't live moment to moment because my life isn't structured that way. I need organisation as well. But I'm like Tegan, if I live as I want to live every day, my legacy will take care of itself. And I feel it's just for me, it's a little bit arrogant for me to talk about my legacy. When I hear that for me, I see myself in this Roman robe, eating grapes on a chaise, like bring me my legacy notes for today. I live day to day without the grapes in the robe.
And do I have to be the best person I can be that day? And then one day turns into a year, turns into a decade, and let's see where we are. That's who I am.Now, in terms of the business, different story. I want to keep bringing in these specific, if not indigenous stories of who we are. But also, look, don't get me wrong, the PT Barnum, the Walt Disney, the Oscar Micheaux, the Willy Wonka in me, I want to produce these great shows. How many ways can you tell a bio musical? How many ways can you tell that story? What's new? What's fresh? What's innovative? Where is your spoonful of sugar? Where is that delivery mechanism? What will bring people here? Look, don't get me wrong, sometimes it can be the methodology, can be a Trojan horse. And where you wouldn't normally go and see a show about Malcolm X, how I produce it. Your sensibilities may be more of a Martin Luther King, or a Gandhi, or another civil rights leader with different sensibilities. But if I can bring it to my show with how I'm doing it, not that I'm doing it, that's huge for me.
How I do, it's so much stronger than what I do. Because sometimes in life, we are forced through circumstances to do something, or there's a challenge that behooves us to do it. But we always have the choice of how. And choice is far stronger than want. So for me, that's where I'm at.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:15
And I can't wait. Now that we've met, you're not going to get rid of me, by the way. That's just what happens with people who I meet.
Tegan Summer 41:22
No, it's my pleasure.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:23
I'm excited to see what's on the horizon. What is the next thing, or multiple things that you're in? And maybe you can give everyone a little insight into that. So Mozart, obviously her story. I think you're casting at the moment.
Tegan Summer 41:39
Casting right now, absolutely.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:40
And you're heading for the 18th of November.
Tegan Summer 41:43
At the Lyric Theatre in the West End.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:45
And then it's going to tour a little bit around the country before then, ending back in the West End, probably in 2025. Is that what we're expecting from that?
Tegan Summer 41:54
Yeah, we're in discussions now. We have, rather than a large tour per se, this one run, limited engagement, either out of London, where it could be in London, maybe slightly off West End, or a very nice venue, West End adjacent, let's say, ahead of our West End run next year. So that's all set up. And we're just thinking as we speak. So very excited for that. I'm currently working on a show with Susan Stroman, the famed Olivier and Tony Award winning director choreographer. We're producing her next West End show, called Little Garza, based on Degas' sculpture of Marie van Goethem. She was this wonderful, could be careful of terminology today because it's changing, but she was a young French woman down on her luck. And Degas and Maria Van Goethem struck up a friendship.
She worked with him. And it's her life to be in this famed ballet dancer from very humble beginnings via Degas. And they're an incredible story together. So we're about to go into pre-production for that. That's going to be in Garret Theatre ahead of a large run next year. We are very excited. I own the rights to James Dean Theatrically Worldwide with my business partner on the project, Mark Roesler. I have written alongside this incredible collaborator, Jimmy Marino, Rebel, the James Dean musical, celebrity gala concert of the show early next year, and then ahead of a run as well. We recorded, my team here, a concept album at Abbey Road Studios, famed Abbey Road Studios. We had some wonderful talent come in and work with us, Vinnie Coyle, Lucy Jones, Laura Pitt-Paulford, incredible people ahead of what we are going to be working on. Justin Matthew Sargent from Broadway as well came in. And I'm in development for Malcolm X.
I am working with Malcolm X's daughters, their attorneys, the estate for the official Malcolm X biomusical, which starts here. And I'm then taking it to the States for obvious reasons, and then back here for a run as well. Oh my goodness. It's an incredible trajectory of human life and diaspora projects. And my collaborators are amazing. The estates are just welcoming because we've created a tiny footprint here of being the biomusical team. So that's permeating society right now to a very grateful and humble degree from us. And again, to be working with Malcolm X's daughters, the James Dean estate, Amelia Earhart. I mean, the list goes on.
And with such luminaries as Susan Stroman, who's just a dream to work with, and of course other incredible collaborators. I failed to mention, I own the rights theatrically for stage musicals for Harvey Milk. The San Francisco legislator who was assassinated. You know this. He's truncated life. We are dramatizing. Douglas Carter Beane of To Wong Foo fame, et cetera. Part of the writing team on Sister Act. He is our book writer. I write the lyrics and the producing. I've been speaking to my dear friend, Anthony Rapp, with regards to coming into the show as well. Moving swimmingly. And again, another story of injustice and diversity that I want to bring to the fore. And Stuart Milk, Harvey's nephew, is one of our producers alongside. And the Harvey Milk Foundation and the Gilbert Baker Estate. Obviously, Gilbert Baker, who designed and created the rainbow flag. So the derivation of the rainbow flag is going to be involved in our show as well, as well as Harvey's story in story and song. Very proud year trajectory forthcoming. Long may it continue. And everyone come on board and join us for this beautiful exploration of the human condition.
Nadia Nagamootoo 46:00
Wow. There's so much that you're involved in. So many incredible stories that you are telling and in such a powerful way. And I have to say from the bottom of my heart, and I'm an absolute theatre lover, as I think you know, thank you for all that you do and continue to find, seek. Because it takes a curious mind, an inquiring mind, right? To see something, can see the story and see the power of what you can evoke through that storytelling and through the music that you write.
I'm so excited to see and follow your path and to be there at those moments to celebrate with you. My final question, which is, I'm asking all of my guests this season, and it's related to my book, which is Beyond Discomfort. And it's all about emotionally what diversity, equity and inclusion evokes and how it might sometimes limit people, leaders in inclusive practices.
Sort of tied into emotionally what you're evoking in what you write, what's the impact you want to, how can we enact change? How can we, from an emotional perspective, shift society from a diversity up to inclusion perspective? So I'm interested if you could share maybe a personal story that highlights some sort of inclusion-related discomfort that you've felt, whether that's something someone said or did to you that made you feel uncomfortable and you weren't sure how to respond, or whether maybe something you've witnessed or seen around, which actually made you feel a bit uncomfortable.
Tegan Summer 47:43
Yes, sophistication. Everything is more sophisticated today. We have the cliches of, and cliches being true, because they're set in reality and repetition. When today, I live on the other end of the Waterloo Bridge, and my office is around Covent Garden, West End, by Fifth Wall, Drury Lane, as you can see behind us here. So when I walk along Waterloo Bridge to home, and maybe it's getting towards the evening, women still clutch their bag and move on the other side. Subtle, sophisticated. When I'm in a theatre, and I've written the show, produced the show, and this is not arrogance, this is not classism, but everyone always assumes I'm there to take their coat. Because I tend to do my little Willy Wonka act and look at the audiences coming in, I'm standing somewhere adjacent to the stage or the door. Everyone assumes. They give me their little cup. And it's an assumption. There are honourable jobs anywhere, but the assumption—of said is in discussion. If I'm on a panel, I'm automatically asked questions that relate to what my role is. If they had arrived late, et cetera, or I could be speaking on it. That's a lesser example, but when you put them all together it's a subtle, scalpel sophistication that is as hard-hitting, and it feels like you are being bludgeoned with a mallet, but it's so skillful. And you get that from tiara to trainers, and it never changes.
It never changes. My goal in life, for me, just personally speaking, is to train myself at this ripe old age, with all the experiences around the world, not to go home feeling like a second-class citizen. And what that skill is, as elusive as it sometimes is, it gets me up in the morning feeling like a child, and that bed is now the chrysalis, right? So I go to bed feeling like a second-class citizen. I go to sleep, and my body mends in sleep, and my mind repairs in sleep, and I wake up again, but I never want to go to bed like that. Of course.
And then I have to write about it in the morning at my desk. If there is a bomb on that residue, it comes out of my writing, and I could never let my writing be imbrewed to a negative by my own emotions and feelings. Even though that is theater all over, I refuse to let it. So it's more damaging for me in my space, not than anyone else, but against the other Tegan that I know, and respect, and self-love, and self-care. I never want him to feel it. There's two of me. The person that would like to engender and encourage all that we've been speaking of in this podcast, but then there's the person that's on the receiving end of it. I have to listen to him before I can speak to others. I don't live in this space to walk every day as a Black producer, a Black writer. I walk every day as a writer who is Black, as a producer who is Black. Words are important. Prose is important. Terminology is important. And this is unpopular, but it's who I am based on my years of experiences. And I may lose some here, but I hope I gain as many. I would rather put down the placard and pick up the final draft or the pen, because I will reach more with being the representation of who I am and who I want to be, than telling you what I am not. I'd rather show you who I am than tell you what I am not. And that's what theatre has done for me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 52:23
You've certainly moved me in just those final words in particular and throughout our conversation, Tegan. I relate to everything you've just said, and I'm sure many people will. We don't want who we are in terms of our diversity characteristics to define us in the sense of just seeing that and nothing else. And it's just incredible what you do each and every day. If there's ever an opportunity to shadow you for a day, I would love to see how you do your job.
Tegan Summer 52:54
Anytime.
Nadia Nagamootoo 52:56
Fascinating, everything that you shared. So deep, so powerful. And once again, thank you, Tegan, for joining me on Why Care and sharing so much. If people did want to follow you, what's the best platform? How do I get hold of you?
Tegan Summer 53:12
Our website's the easiest, Tegan's Summer Theatricals. Tegan'sSummerTheatricals.com, And I'm on Instagram as well, at Tegan's Summer. I am what they say on the tip. My Instagram is at Tegan's Summer. T-E-G-A-N-S-U-M-M-E-R.Again, Sherlock Holmes can take a day off. I'm fine.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:39
Well, everything that Tegan and I have spoken about today is going to be available on the usual show notes page, as well as the links to everything that Tegan's just said. So thank you once again for your time sharing and speaking to me.
Tegan Summer 53:53
Thank you, Nadia. You are an absolute treasure and it was my pleasure.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:58
That concludes episode 41 of Why Care. Wow. I love Tegan's way of expressing such powerful and deep emotions. I'm in awe of his talent and inspired by how he uses this to share the stories of people who have been oppressed and affected by discriminatory systems. What an incredible way of creating wide scale societal change. Do let Tegan and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Insta with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Jenny Lynton for getting it out there on social media.
