Why Care? 48 : Beneath the Surface with Michael Gunning
“And I think lots of teachers questioned why I was swimming and, are you really serious? Can you really swim? Are you really good? So even back then, I felt like I had to kind of prove people wrong and bring my medals into school to show that I was the best in the country at that time. But I think it’s tough because obviously education does play such an important role in everyone’s lives. But for me, swimming was at that level too, and I think I had to knock down many barriers and many people who didn’t necessarily believe in my talent in order to get to where I did.”
In this episode of Why Care?, host Nadia Nagamootoo speaks with Michael Gunning, an elite swimmer and trailblazer for diversity and inclusion in sport. Michael shares his incredible journey from becoming one of the few Black swimmers to compete internationally, to using his platform to advocate for LGBTQ+ representation and equality. He opens up about navigating labels, breaking barriers, and the importance of representation in sports and beyond. Michael also discusses his recent projects, including the Swim United campaign, his work with Pride House, and his new, groundbreaking TV series, Beneath the Surface. This conversation clearly demonstrates his resilience, purpose, and the power of sport to drive societal change.
Key Takeaways
Michael’s story highlights the importance of representation, resilience, and breaking barriers in sports.
From being one of the few Black swimmers in elite competitions to coming out as gay, Michael has faced and overcome numerous societal and personal challenges.
His work inspires others to embrace their identity and break stereotypes, showcasing that sport is for everyone.
Advocating for inclusion requires persistence, education, and collective action.
Michael’s initiatives, such as Swim United and Pride House, demonstrate how accessibility and safe spaces can transform lives.
His journey emphasises the importance of creating platforms where diverse voices can be heard and celebrated.
Highlights
Michael’s Journey: From learning to swim at the age of four to becoming an elite international swimmer, Michael shares the challenges and triumphs of his unique path in sport.
Navigating Labels: Michael opens up about the frustrations of being labelled as a "Black gay swimmer" and how he has worked to redefine these narratives, focusing on his achievements rather than societal stereotypes.
Representation Matters: Michael discusses the importance of diversity in sport and how seeing someone who looks like you in elite competitions can inspire the next generation.
Advocating for Inclusion: Learn about Michael’s work with Swim United and Pride House, initiatives designed to make swimming accessible and create safe spaces for LGBTQ+ athletes and fans.
Breaking Stereotypes: Michael shares how he uses his platform to challenge the misconceptions around swimming and identity, proving that sport is for everyone.
Life Beyond the Pool: From hosting his TV series Beneath the Surface to championing equity in sports, Michael highlights how he continues to make an impact beyond competitive swimming.
Links
Michael Gunning: LinkedIn | Website
Beneath the Surface on Sky Sports: Michael Gunning meets Jake Daniels
Avenir Consulting: https://linktr.ee/avenirconsultingservices
Transcript
Michael Gunning 00:00
I look back to Rio Olympics where people were downloading gay dating apps to try and out athletes, to try and catch somebody or catch somebody who is in the public eye just to out them. And I think, you know, that's heartbreaking. Everyone should come out at the right time. And, you know, now in Paris to have a Pride House that is so accessible to everyone that you don't have to be there just if you're part of the community, I think is, you know, really shows progress. And hopefully we'll just keep making sure that there is that safe space for all athletes to be themselves, but also to speak openly about being themselves, because, you know, it's tough. It's tough when you feel alone. And I remember when I came out, we got so many death threats from people out in Jamaica saying that I brought shame on their country. And it's really hard to read. And it really does make you question, do I want to be gay?
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:49
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported, but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles, both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 48 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. In this episode, I am delighted to welcome Michael Gunning, a former international swimmer best known for competing in the 200 metre butterfly event at the 2017 and 2019 World Swimming Championships. Michael represented both Team GB and Team Jamaica during his competitive swimming career, setting multiple national records. In 2018, Michael was awarded Sportsman of the Year in Jamaica for his contribution to sport. He is also an inclusion champion who campaigns for equal rights for the LGBTQ plus community around the world, as well as being on a mission to make sport accessible to all. Our discussion ranges from Michael's experience coming out when he was representing Jamaica, the subsequent shame that was put on him, and how he has learnt self-love. He also shares how he has had to work hard to shake the inevitable labels placed on him as a black gay swimmer.
His latest project with Sky Sports is a TV programme he has produced, directed, and hosted called Beneath the Surface, talking to first-class sports people from underrepresented backgrounds about their experiences and raising awareness of the stigma, barriers, and impact of being different, particularly when in the public eye. Without doubt, this is an inspiring conversation, which I hope offers you insight and food for thought. Enjoy.
Michael, a huge, huge welcome to Why Care. I can't tell you how excited I am, and honoured, actually, that you said yes to joining me. Thank you so much.
Michael Gunning 04:02
It's an absolute pleasure. I think it's always great to be able to share stories and experiences, so hopefully your listeners will enjoy our chat today.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:10
Absolutely, no doubt. And you do have an incredible story. I have to take note of the way in which we met, because actually the first time we met, you handed an award to me at the European Diversity Awards. And I never got a chance to say thank you, because I got swept off into another room when I back and there were like hundreds of people. I didn't know where to find you. But yeah, what an amazing evening. And so thank you very much for that moment that we shared.
Michael Gunning 04:41
It's an absolute pleasure. I think it's always great when you can be in a room with amazing, inspiring people. And obviously, I had the honour of presenting you with your awards, but I think I was just inspired of everyone on the night. So I think it's always great to be there. So yeah, it was great to meet you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:57
Well, look, we continue our relationship and this conversation to find out more about you. So now you've had a remarkable swimming career. It's phenomenal, actually, when I look at kind of the things that you have won. There's been very few Black swimmers, in fact, in history. And so I guess when I was reading up more about you really looking at your career, I was intrigued about how you even as a young lad, which at the time when you started swimming, I know you were quite young, that you even thought it was possible that you even thought, oh, this is something I can do. And I could do it professionally. And I could be a world-class swimmer. And like, what was the driving force for you in those decisions that you made?
Michael Gunning 05:42
Yeah, you know what, so I learned to swim when I was four and never had an intention of going elite. Never thought I would go and represent my country. I just kind of learned to swim as most parents would encourage their children to do. And I think back then I loved proving people wrong. So when there wasn't many people of colour, I said, well, why not me? And that's how it kind of started. And I just had that love for it. And despite being a little bit different and despite not looking like everyone else around me, I wanted to swim. I wanted to prove people wrong. I wanted to win that gold medal at county championships. And yeah, it never really started on a path of, let's try and go to the Olympics or let's try and be elite. It was just, let's learn to swim and enjoy it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:24
And enjoy it. And so you fell in love with the sport. And was there something in particular, was there a moment where someone said something to you or you just kind of realised, actually, this could be bigger. I could be the first.
Michael Gunning 06:36
Yeah, I think qualifying for nationals. So the first year I was so close to getting a national time. And it was a kind of feeling that moment of realising, well, what is nationals? I hadn't heard of what the national championships was, but whatever it was, I wanted to be there next year. And I think that's kind of when the drive happened that I was like, right, let's not get injured. Let's be that elite athlete that I can be. And yeah, I remember when I did get my first national time, it was such a great feeling and racing against everyone who was the best in your age group at Britain. It was just, yeah, really special.
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:07
I can't imagine the feeling. Wow. Were there any barriers along the way?So were there people maybe even discouraging you because there was no one else who would walk the puzzle? Or let's face it, just in elite sport in general, there can only be a few, hence the word elite, right? So for many of us, me in particular, I sort of think, oh gosh, why me? There's so many amazing other people. Were there personal barriers like that for you? Or were there other people who were discouraging?
Michael Gunning 07:38
Yeah, I think joining secondary school, obviously Maths and English is such core subjects that as soon as you're in school, everyone's working hard and trying to get the grades that they want to achieve. And I think for me going into year seven, I was very naive to the fact that I had swimming. I had a swimming career where I was swimming before school and after school, but I was also trying to do well and succeed in education. And I think lots of teachers questioned why I was swimming and are you really serious? Can you really swim? Are you really good? So even back then, I felt like I had to kind of prove people wrong and bring my medals into school to show that I was the best in the country at that time. But I think it's tough because obviously education does play such an important role in everyone's lives. But for me, swimming was at that level too, you know, and I think I had to knock down many barriers and many people who didn't necessarily believe in my talent in order to get to where I did.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:31
I'm curious, how much do you think, and maybe you can't say, but how much do you think that that was because of the colour of your skin or you just being different in many ways?
Michael Gunning 08:44
Yeah, I think with me, I was different in many ways. I had a massive personality who, as someone who was waking up at half past four to go swimming in the morning, was a little bit strange anyway. People didn't necessarily understand how I had so much energy. But yeah, my colour of my skin was different. And I think lots of people didn't understand because it's almost like, why are you setting yourself up to fail? Whereas, you know, even though I wasn't kind of winning those gold medals at the National Championships at the time, I knew I had talent and I just kind of needed to pursue and almost be patient.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:16
Inner belief and patience is what I'm hearing. And actually, when you did get to world class, as a swimmer, and I've seen interviews with you and things that you were saying, the media was essentially wanting to put you into a category. It wasn't Michael Gunning, like world class swimmer .It was Michael Gunning, black gay swimmer. And it was hard to shrug off those labels, right? Why can't I just be Michael Gunning, the world class swimmer ?Why do you have to put these identity labels on me? That must have been incredibly frustrating for you. And not anything you could do anything about, I assume.
Michael Gunning 09:56
Yeah, no, nothing I could do about it. I think, you know, I'd always used to see media articles and it would never say a white Olympic champion or a white straight athlete. And it was hard to kind of read all these labels that was written about me when I was Michael, the swimmer who was enjoying swimming. But I kind of think I look back and I think actually, if not me, who? If not at that point, when? You know, and I think as well with my coming out and kind of me being openly gay in sport, I think as well, like kind of had that same mindset that if it's not me, who will it be?And I want to kind of inspire others and change the path for many people who have had to grow up with labels, because hopefully soon we won't need those labels in place.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:40
Yeah. And I hear your frustration, right? And in a lot of the work that I do, there's this moment of discomfort in the room where I say, look, people have a White background they're not used to the color of their skin being a core part of what other people identify them as. They walk through the world and experience it without the color of their skin affecting how they experience the world and how the world perceives them. They don't understand because it's an absence of something. It's never happened to them. It's really hard for them to recognize that it happens to other people. So you retired in 2022 and have done quite incredible, actually, what you've been involved in, the work. And I'm going to call it a mission because it does feel like that when I talk to you and when I see the work that you're doing. Broadly, what is your mission?
Michael Gunning 11:33
You know what? I think it's just almost what my legacy to just inspire others and show everyone that anything is possible. Yeah, it's not really just in swimming. It's not just in sexuality. I think it's every person has an opportunity to shine in no matter what they do. And I would just love to bring it out of everyone and let everyone realize their true potential in everything. So yeah, I'm not really sure if that answers your question, but I guess just inspire as many people as I can.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:00
Yeah, I mean, it does because that's such a deep sense of purpose that is like a guiding principle that, you know, you get involved in something if it's going to inspire others to live authentically and in who they are, which is beautiful. Tell me about, so you have been involved in a number of campaigns and various projects in the last couple of years. In particular, there was one campaign with Speedo. So the Swim United campaign.
Michael Gunning 12:28
Yes, obviously every year, Swim England announced some statistics of people who have learned to swim, of young children who leave school being able to swim. And two years ago, the statistic was that one in three children leave school being unable to swim. And I think that horrified me because at the age of four, I had learned to swim and I could swim multiple lengths.But I think obviously I can have come from joining a club and going through that process. But even if I wasn't aiming to be an elite swimmer, I think still swimming is a life skill and everyone should be able to enjoy it, but everyone should just be able to survive in water. And so I think that really stuck out for me. And we basically created a Speedo Swim United campaign where we wanted to unite everyone together in order to create a big mission of allowing everyone to learn to swim. Going to lots of different schools, because I do love inspiring the younger generation and the older generation. But I think it was just a massive lack of education and obviously people maybe not being able to afford to go swimming. And so with Speedo, we put some pop-up pools into school playgrounds and basically brought swimming to them and helped educate them, made them understand why swimming was so important, why it was a life skill. And it was just massively successful and the amount of students that came through that program that can now swim. Yeah, it was really, really inspiring. It was great to kind of be part of that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 13:52
So is it the case then that not, I assume primary schools at this point, not all primary schools have swimming as part of the curriculum, as part of a weekly timetable? Is that what the reason is that only one in three aren't able to swim, right? Is that the reason for that statistic?
Michael Gunning 14:08
Yeah, it's basically because schools can decide what that activity is and swimming isn't compulsory for everyone. So I think sometimes it's maybe an easier option, it may be a cheaper option to do another sport, which all sports are great, all exercise is great, but obviously swimming is that main skill that can save your life. And obviously we've been through a very tough time with the pandemic and loads of school pools closing down. I used to have a swimming pool in my primary school, but then that was taken down and now it's a drama studio. So I think sometimes the evolution is not always there, but I think everyone should still have access to that. And yeah, I guess that's what I'm really trying to do around the UK.
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:48
I love it. And you're so right, it's such a vital skill and actually can enhance disparities in terms of health inequities or outcomes or swimming is a great way of keeping fit, is a great way of cardio fitness in particular, as well as just getting your body moving. So if certain groups of people aren't doing it for whatever reason, they weren't taught, they weren't given access and enhance, I suppose, disparities and inequities in society.
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I've got my own swimming story, which is that I only learned to swim in 2019, 2018, 2019. So not that long ago. The reason for that is that so my primary school did offer swimming. We didn't go often, but we all got on a coach and we went to the local leisure center maybe one term a year. My parents came over from Mauritius and I was born here and my brother was born here, but they couldn't afford to send us for swimming lessons or to take us swimming. It wasn't something they prioritized. So by the time I got to primary school, I didn't, it was my first, I say, interaction or experience with a pool, with what we're getting in the water. And I was scared. There's so much fear actually there when people are in the water, can it be there?
And the teacher, she could see that I was, I don't know what it was, but she just, the other kids seemed to take to it quicker than I. And I was obviously scared and she just humiliated me in front of the class. So she made me swim, try to swim. I say it wasn't exactly swimming to the other side in front of all the class while they watched me splutter my way across the end. It stays with me. And so I just thought, no, it's not for me. I don't want to, I'd try and get my parents to write letters to give reasons why I wasn't feeling well. I just wanted to skip the lessons altogether. But by the time my daughter reached four, she realized that mummy never got in the pool. And I was like, this isn't okay. I don't want to inspire my four-year-old daughter because she was swimming before me. I was like, no, hang on a second. I'm going to show her that mummy can learn to swim and you can learn to swim at any age. And so I did, I joined an adult swimming club. I went on a Thursday evening to try again as an adult and I did it. So I can swim now.
Michael Gunning 18:16
Amazing. No, I think that representation is so important, whether you're an adult, whether you're a teenager, anyone can learn to swim. And I think, you know, I'm very lucky to be part of, again, for another year, last year, I taught Dr. Ranj to swim for BBC children in need.
Nadia Nagamootoo18:29
Yes, I saw that
Michael Gunning 18:32
And this year they're doing a big swim challenge and they are basically challenging lots of BBC presenters, radio presenters to take part. And I'm again, a coach for a couple of the presenters. And it's so great, like having that representation is so, so important.
Nadia Nagamootoo 18:49
It is. It is. Well, I look forward to seeing that. How do you know if a campaign like Swim United has been successful? Is there a way of measuring? I suppose you obviously keep an eye on the statistics. You know that certainly you have encouraged more people to swim, but do you know from the societal impact?
Michael Gunning 19:07
Yeah, good question. I think every school that we've been into, we've really monitored of what badges swimmers and students have. So obviously if they come here and they can't learn to swim, is there a badge that they've now achieved that they didn't have? But we've we also put a lot of money into giving discounts off swimming lessons in their local area. So then hopefully they can go away and go and learn at their local pool. So I think, yeah, it's all about that.I'm really trying to keep pools open just so it is there. It is accessible to people because sometimes it's, we just need that education for people to know that actually there's a pool there that is okay price and actually you can go. And again, like you said, get rid of that fear. I think so many people are petrified of the water, parents as well. And if we can try and educate the parents, it will give the students confidence.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:57
Yeah, I agree. So that's one of the campaigns. Now, something you've more recently been involved in in 2024 with the Paris Olympics was Pride House. Okay. So the game, the slogan for the games was Games Wide Open, which basically meant they were making the games accessible to all. Tell me about Pride House. What was your vision and what was it like to be part of?
Michael Gunning 20:21
Yeah, so I think for me, I first became an ambassador for Pride House in 2022 for the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham. And basically, Pride House is a safe space in the games where anyone can go to, anyone can have open conversations. I think around the Commonwealth alone, there is over 60 countries where they do criminalise homosexuality. And I know from myself travelling around being a swimmer, we go to countries where it is illegal to be gay. And I don't feel safe. So I think something like Pride House, having that safe space where it's attached to an Olympic Games, it's attached to a Commonwealth Games, where basically everyone is saying that we need this safe space.
Obviously, we don't have to be in there all the time, but it just allows people to have that open conversation and they know that they can go somewhere if they need to. And I think many people think, oh, you know, I'm not part of the LGBTQ plus community. It's not for me. But it's for everyone. It's for everyone to share their passion for equality. It's for everyone to just watch the games and enjoy the games and have open conversations. There was lots of panels. And I think it was just great to be part of because for the first time, athletes could actually engage in it. It was a beautiful boat in Paris on the River Seine. Overlooked beautiful Paris. And ultimately, Pride is a celebration. And yeah, we definitely brought that to the Olympics this year.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:41
It's phenomenal. And this is the first that it's been in the Olympics, right?
Michael Gunning 21:45
Yes, it happened in 2016, actually. And 2020, obviously, COVID time was a very different time. But it was the first time that it was actually present. There was actually that space that you could go to. And it was actually a house, a hub. Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:01
Wow. And so lots of conversations. So you would have, there was a schedule of things that people were talking about. And around the schedule, people could go and just have space, have people to talk to, be able to share what was going on for them during the games. That's amazing.
Michael Gunning 22:20
Yeah. It was just to watch the games as well. I think it's so important. You know, there's loads of spectator viewing areas because obviously not everyone in Paris will have a ticket to the various different competitions. Of course. I think it was just nice to have a place where everyone was welcome. Everyone could celebrate. Everyone, you could drink alcohol. You don't have to drink alcohol. There's athletes that had finished competing and they were in. So you got to hold some of their medals. And I think it was just a really nice free space that you could go to and celebrate.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:49
Yeah. And how have you seen that shift in athletes feeling comfortable, feeling safe to come out? So it's not that long ago that we wouldn't find any gay LGBTQ plus athletes at all. I mean, as in outwardly, we wouldn't find them for any games. And not that long ago, I had Dame Kelly Holmes on my show and she had this fear. There's a fear of people finding out her sexuality and that people would perceive her differently as a result. So can you just reflect a little bit about sort of where we're at now? Have we got there? Is there more work to do?It feels better than it was, but it feels like we're still working on things.
Michael Gunning 23:40
Yeah, I think we've still got a long way to go because I think, you know, like I mentioned, there's lots of countries around the world that still criminalize. But, you know, I think we've come a long way. I think it's obviously we have got a long way to go, but we have made good progress. And I think I look back to Rio Olympics where people were downloading gay dating apps to try and out athletes, to try and catch somebody or catch somebody who is in the public eye just to out them. And I think, you know, that's heartbreaking. Everyone should come out at the right time. Now in Paris, to have a pride house that is so accessible to everyone that you don't have to be there just if you're part of the community, I think is really shows progress. And hopefully we'll just keep making sure that there is that safe space for all athletes to be themselves, but also to speak openly about being themselves, because it's tough. It's tough when you feel alone. And I remember when I came out, we got so many death threats from people out in Jamaica saying that I brought shame on their country. And it's really hard to read. And it really does make you question, do I want to be gay? And I think that was the battle in my mind for so many years. I don't want to bring shame on anyone. I don't want to be an embarrassment to anyone. I think all athletes, everyone, every day who might be going through and struggling with their sexuality might feel that fear. So I think anything we can do to just make it more positive, to make people feel united is so important.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:01
It is. And that word alone, shame, right? It's so weighty. There's so much behind that emotion of shame. It's toxic in a way. When we hold shame, it eats away at us from a mental health perspective as well. Like for people to say that. Were you representing Jamaica at the time?
Michael Gunning 25:20
So yeah, I started to represent Jamaica in 2017 and I came out in 2018. So yeah, I think I had so much love and support and everyone was really happy. And then suddenly I came out and it was...And then it was gone. Yeah. Which is tough.Tough. I think at the point, there were so many people that were inspired by me that I was the first out person on the national team and people could finally have someone to talk to. And I read so many heartbreaking messages from people who their parents would chuck them out on the streets if they knew their real sexuality. And I think I was that person for them to go to. And even though I couldn't apply to everyone, I think it was just nice for someone to know that they weren't alone on their journey.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:01
I mean, it's incredibly courageous. There's no word for it actually, your decision to come out, particularly knowing that in Jamaica. I imagine you would know the country, the culture that not everyone would be welcoming of a Jamaican athlete who was gay. So you probably, I assume, knew what might be coming your way.
Michael Gunning 26:24
Yeah, I think I totally knew when I was about to come out what was going to happen. But I think, obviously, countries like Jamaica, it's so heavily about religion and about Christianity. And I think actually just being able to be in those spaces, being on a team with Jamaican athletes and having a conversation, they didn't have to lift me higher.
They just had to understand that I was different. And I think the minute I was on the team with them, they accepted me. I was representing their country. I was swimming well. And that's what it was about. But yeah, I think we do have a long way to go in some of those countries still. And I'm also working with Kaleidoscope Trust, which is a charity that help LGBT laws around the world. So I'm also trying to feed into that to give experiences and do what I can.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:09
Yeah. Yet something else that you're involved in to try and make a change, which I love about you.
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Back to the episode.
Tell me, because I'm really excited to hear this. This is a new project that you have very recently been involved in with SkySport. Tell me about this series, this program that you're involved in and actually highly, like you're a director, are you producing, you're in it?I don't know how many other roles there could be, but please share.
Michael Gunning 28:25
Yeah, so basically SkySport has brought out this program where it's called the New Focus Fund, where they wanted to give bits of money to people who might not have had opportunities in that industry. I just retired from swimming and I really wanted to get into TV, but I'd not really have any experience. Obviously, I was behind the camera quite a lot and in front of the camera for various interviews and swimming media, but not in the entertainment industry.And I basically had an opportunity to go into SkySport and learn off some of the experts of pre-edit, post-edit, of what actually happens on the ground in live studios, in locations. And I think I learned so much from this that I basically pitched an idea of my own series, my own documentary, and they loved the idea and basically supported me in making it. So I'm director, producer, and host of my own TV show on ZySports, which is crazy, but I think the whole premise of it is called Beneath the Surface, and it's about me going beneath the surface in some of our favorite athletes' lives and seeing, rather than seeing just a footballer, that pro footballer, what about the person, you know? What does it take to be them? And yeah, my first episode is on Jake Daniels. He's the first openly gay footballer since Justin Fashionu in the 1990s, so he's only 20 years old.
He's an absolute rising star, and he's at Blackpool Football Club. And I just wanted to try and shine the light of people to get to see him away from being a gay footballer, you know, that label that I've always hated throughout my life. And yeah, I tried football. I've not tried football in over 20 years, and I had a go.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:02
How was it?
Michael Gunning 30:04
And oh my gosh, I'm still not too great, but I learned some good skills. And I think I just want to show that actually all sport is accessible, whether you're a pro, whether you're not, anyone can get in and do it. And obviously, if anyone's scared of swimming, have a go, you know, no matter what sport it is, have a go.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:20
Yeah, right. It's not easy going into something knowing that you're going to be scared for a lot of the time that you're doing it, that you're probably not going to be great. I'm never going to be an amazing swimmer. However, I can get to the other side of the pool. I can swim myself to safety and my daughter if need be, right? And that's what I wanted. I'll probably never love it. And maybe you'll never love football, right? That's okay. That's okay. But it's about sort of just giving things a go.
Michael Gunning 30:53
Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think for so long, football had been something that I'd feared. It's a very masculine sport. You know, I used to play when I was younger, when I was six or seven years old. And I just used to hate being anywhere near the ball because it came with this pressure. It came with this anger from the people in the sidelines if I missed it or I didn't defend properly. So I think for me, it just embedded this fear. So it was so nice to go with a professional football player and have fun and try some of the skills. I was actually quite good with my left foot, which I always thought I was right footed. But I think it just opened my mind to realise it's okay to be bad at something. But also, you might not be as bad as you think.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:33
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I really love the sentiment, anyone can do it.It's accessible for all. And the stigma around different stigmas around different sports. And football is, as you say, very traditionally masculine. We need to de-stigmatise that. It doesn't have to be. And what I love about what you're doing in this programme is just breaking some of those barriers, breaking some of the mould that we've created, which is just socially constructed and doesn't have to be.
So thank you. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing and everything that we've spoken about today. I'm just so inspired by you as a person in your career, as well as everything that you're doing as a changemaker, which is absolutely what you are.
Michael Gunning 32:21
Aww, thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:22
Now, there's one final question I have for you. And it's something I'm asking all my guests this season. And it wraps around the concept of my book, which is called Beyond Discomfort. Why inclusive leadership is so hard and what you can do about it. And so I'm keen to know from you, in your work, in your life in general, has there been a moment where you've met discomfort when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion, that you felt something, a fear or something went on for you that made you, I suppose, stop and think? What was the moment of discomfort for you?What is it that you had to address? And how did you do it?
Michael Gunning 33:03
Oh, yes. I think going to my first world championships and feeling like people were looking at me differently, looking at me as a figure and is he going to succeed? I think for me, that was a massive turning point because I had therapy shortly after and I saw a psychologist, which really massively helped me. But I think you'll always see questions. If you're the first in anything, you will always have people looking at you differently or judging you. But almost we need to jump past that. And I think that was a big turning point in my life because it allowed me to learn what self-love is. I don't need anyone else. We all don't need other people to succeed and to be on this journey.
We just need that confidence in ourselves. And when you don't have that confidence, and many years I didn't, it can be very lonely. But if you do have that confidence, you can achieve whatever you want to achieve. So yeah, I think that was my moment and made the steps in after that in order to try and change that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:00
What I love about you, Michael, is that the experiences that you've had in life have just built up your resilience, inspired you with a greater sense of purpose. So despite some of those experiences not being positive in the slightest, you now use it as part of who you are to create a better world and inspire the generation that comes after. So an absolute pleasure to have you on Why Care, Michael.Genuinely, really inspired by everything that you do. If people want to follow you, they want to, yeah, you're on socials, I know you are, maybe you can just give a little bit of information about how they can reach you.
Michael Gunning 34:40
Yeah, of course. I'm on Instagram, X, all of the social medias and my handle will be Mike1. So yeah, I'm always out and about, you know, Nadia, I'm always here, there and everywhere. But yeah, an open book and I love to share. So hopefully people can find that little bit of inspiration from me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:57
Absolutely. Well, I personally do and I know that a lot of people do. So everything that Michael and I spoke about today is going to be available on the show notes page,www.nadianagamootoo.com under podcasts. I'll make sure that there are links to Michael's socials as well. Once again, thank you, Michael, for your time, for sharing, for everything that you do to make change happen.
Michael Gunning 35:21
It's a pleasure. Thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:23
That concludes episode 48 of Why Care. I feel so inspired by Michael's story. It's tough being the first. I love his drive and deep sense of purpose to encourage everyone, particularly people from underrepresented communities, to participate in sport and give it a go. He wants to see a healthier and more physically fit society and strives to create inclusion and social change in sport. Do let Michael and I know what you thought of today's show.
You can find me on LinkedIn and Insta with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and to Jenny Lynton for getting it out there on social media.
