Why Care? 47 Tackling Workplace Bullying with Claire Collins
“Bullies can be everything...from physical bullying… to psychological undermining, sexual harassment, and other kinds of harassment. And it can play out in different ways….in front of other people...in meetings, or in group situations. But quite often, the bully is very clever in that they will give their comments... before a meeting or after a meeting in the quiet of their own office, or, they could just say, "Could I just have five minutes with you before we go into the meeting?" And… just fire enough demeaning remarks at you before a meeting that put you on edge - that...makes what was going to be… a confident presentation or your confident demeanor in...the meeting. It just puts that element of doubt into your mind as to, "Oh, am I speaking out of turn here? Am I making myself look like an idiot?" They plant the seeds of doubt in your mind. “
In this episode of Why Care?, host Nadia Nagamootoo sits down with Claire Collins, a coach and Henley Business School Professor of Leadership, to discuss the impact of toxic work environments. Claire shares her journey from a biomedical career to becoming a law firm chief executive and, following a highly successful academic career, finding her purpose in coaching professionals who are dealing with workplace bullying. This conversation delves into identifying toxic behaviours, understanding the effects of gaslighting, and building resilience. Claire provides invaluable insights into navigating such environments, regaining confidence, and fostering better organisational cultures for all.
Key Takeaways
Claire’s journey emphasises the importance of resilience and seeking support when faced with workplace bullying.
Coaching can empower individuals to either confront toxic environments confidently or transition out with self-worth intact.
Building resilience requires understanding gaslighting and developing personal strategies to counteract it.
Organisations play a vital role in preventing toxicity and supporting employees in challenging situations.
Clear policies, strong leadership, and allyship are essential in creating inclusive and safe work environments.
Providing tools and training to help leaders recognise and prevent exclusionary behaviours is crucial for fostering positive culture.
Highlights:
Claire’s Diverse Career Journey: From biomedical science to coaching, Claire’s story is one of resilience and reinvention, shaped by her own experiences in challenging work environments.
Understanding Toxic Leadership: Claire discusses how toxic leadership can manifest, from overt bullying to more subtle forms like gaslighting and undermining.
Building Resilience Against Gaslighting: Claire explains how individuals can recognise and counteract gaslighting tactics, building up their confidence and reclaiming their personal power.
Coaching Through Trauma and Toxicity: Learn about Claire’s mission to help professionals in toxic workplaces either stand up to their environments or leave with their self-worth intact.
Supporting Marginalised Groups in the Workplace: Claire emphasises the need for inclusive policies and advocates for allyship, especially for those facing unique challenges, such as returning mothers and part-time workers.
Long-term Effects of Workplace Bullying: Claire sheds light on the neurological and psychological impact of bullying and gaslighting, which can sometimes lead to trauma and PTSD-like symptoms.
Guest Bio
Claire Collins is a Professor of Leadership at Henley Business School, University of Reading, and a coach specialising in supporting professionals facing toxic work environments. With a diverse background spanning biomedical science, law firm leadership, and academia, Claire brings a wealth of experience and insight to her coaching practice. She is deeply committed to helping individuals regain their confidence, navigate workplace bullying, and build resilience. Claire’s current work focuses on empowering those in toxic environments and advocating for supportive organisational cultures.
Links
Professor Claire Collins: LinkedIn | Website
Avenir Consulting: https://linktr.ee/avenirconsultingservices
Transcript
Prof. Claire Collins 00:00
I was on the senior management team at the time, and I was ridiculed in front of them. I was shouted at in front of them. And my theory now is that you need three conditions to have this could sort of play into, into its worst environment. And it's a bit like fire needing oxygen fuel and igniting. You need the bully, the person, you need a susceptible individual, that was me, and you need a condoning environment, an enabling environment. So we had our bully. I was the susceptible individual because I had been primed in that previous situation. I had been sensitized just as you would with an allergy or something like that. And the enabling environment was that everybody else in that meeting said nothing. Absolutely nothing. I could see colleagues' eyebrows raise, but you could practically hear their chair scraping backwards. And so there are things that need to be fixed in all of those three areas. But I, again, felt absolutely diminished. And at the time, I was having to manage a huge project, lead people who were my seniors, my superiors, and act in a really confident way, or else the project was not going to succeed. I had to be the leader. And yet I was being undermined by my own leader. And that's a really difficult situation to handle.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:45
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom-line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it.
How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported, but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles, both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 47 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Professor Claire Collins to the show. Claire and I have a very special longstanding relationship because she was my MBA dissertation supervisor almost 10 years ago and has been supporting me and cheering me on ever since. Claire is Emerita Professor of Leadership at Henley Business School, University of Reading. Her career history is certainly eclectic, from biomedical scientist in the NHS to CEO of a London law firm before rising the ranks in academia. Claire now works with professionals who are experiencing toxic work environments, helping them regain their career confidence and developing strategies either to leave their current situation well or to manage their bully or gaslighter. She's a trustee of the charity Victim Support and a foundation director of a large multi-academy trust.
In this episode, Claire shares two shocking incidences of workplace bullying that affected her and explains the three things that come together which make bullying behavior more likely. We discuss the concept of gaslighting and how the bully can subtly work away over time with remarks and questions that chip away at the person's confidence and self-worth. Claire offers some valuable advice for organizations in how to take action to confront and prevent workplace bullying. There is so much to learn from this episode, whether you have personal experience of being bullied or are a leader who is responsible for creating a healthy workplace environment. Enjoy.
Claire, oh my goodness, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for joining me.
Prof. Claire Collins 05:00
Thank you for having me. I feel really privileged to be part of this having seen lots of them. So yeah, thank you for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:06
We have to share our relationship with each other because it's such a special one, particularly for me having been your student to now obviously have this conversation with you and for you to join me. So I obviously was an MBA student doing my executive MBA at Henley and whilst you were also a lecturer, you then kindly said you would supervise me through my dissertation and I'm forever grateful. I learned so much from you. I'm sure I've said it a million times before, but thank you for everything that you have shared with me. So I'm so happy you're going to share even more with Why Care? audience.
Prof. Claire Collins 05:45
First of all, it was an absolute pleasure to supervise somebody who actually wanted to do a really good job. That's always a delight. And I'm so proud of what you've gone on to do, the things that you were working on and the things that you cared about and were passionate about whilst we were at Henley together. You've gone on to make a huge success and make a thing. We're birds of a feather and we want to make an impact on the world and that's what you've done in spades. So well done you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:15
Oh, thank you. That means so much in particular coming from you and I very much appreciate you constantly lifting me up because I know you've done that so much along the way. So for those who are listening who don't know your background, who you are, why don't you share a little bit about your career to date, life at Henley, life post-Henley, just what you've been up to.
Prof. Claire Collins 06:41
I started as a biomedical scientist back in the day, as they say. I probably don't want to say when, but it was about the 1840s. So many, many years ago I trained because my mother told me it would be a good idea. I trained to be a biomedical scientist. I really, really wanted to go to university and do medicine. I wanted to be a doctor. That was the only thing I'd wanted to be since I was about 12 or 13. And I got ill during my A-levels and that prevented me from getting the grades I needed, going to university, becoming a doctor. And so my mum suggested I go and be a biomedical scientist like my sister had. And I did that. And actually it was incredibly interesting. Working in the NHS was a joy. That was a long time ago. I think things have got even tougher. Subsequently, having done that for a few years, I and my then husband, we moved down to Oxford. And so it was an opportunity to sort of step outside the sciencey bit. And so I went into NHS management and it was while I was there that I started doing an MBA at Henley Management College as it was then. And sadly we split up. I decided that for all sorts of reasons about coercive control and whatever, that I could actually do whatever I wanted to do. And so I took my MBA learning and I went off to be chief exec of a law firm in London. I was still living in Oxfordshire, so the commute was a bit hectic. But after three years, I met this, I'll say young man. He wasn't, neither of us was young by then. And we fell in love and we decided to get married. And commuting into London wasn't a very good idea. So I decided to come back, if you like. And I said to Pete, my now husband of 21 years, I really want to go and work at Henley. And so I waited and waited until the right job came up. I applied for it. I got it.
That was fantastic. I was in executive education at the beginning, but that wasn't going to hack it for me. I started my PhD, encouraged by a friend to do so. And I wanted to be an academic. So I went and basically, I think the polite word is lobbied. I'll say harangued my colleagues to letting me be, to get on the academic track. And so I did. I started at the bottom rung again. In fact, they had to invent a title for me because I didn't even have my PhD yet, but obviously being more mature and having had many years work experience, I could already teach and supervise and whatever. Anyway, I worked my way up and in 2020 became a full professor. That really, I got my PhD obviously. And that really for me was the icing on the cake. It was complete fulfillment. And I absolutely love Henley. I took voluntary redundancy in 2021. Everybody thought it was a good idea except me because I didn't want to leave. But we moved then from Oxfordshire to the Peak District, which is where I am now. And it's beautiful.
And so now I am coaching people who are experiencing toxic work environments. And I am in my giving back phase, I call it now. I don't mention the R, retirement word. And so I am very, very happily doing my coaching and I'm a non-exec to two really wonderful organizations. One's a large multi-academy trust. And the other one is Victim Support, which is a national multi-crime charity, supporting victims of any kind of crime. And they're both an absolute joy to be a part of. And I feel like all that 40 years worth of experience that I've got, I feel that I'm really, really putting it to some use now and supporting others doing fantastic jobs. So that's my story really.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:41
And what a story. So I only know from a certain point onwards. So that's fascinating for me. I had no idea about the biomedical background and the chief executive of I mean, wow. So I'm interested in your decision now to focus on coaching people who have a particular experience of working in a toxic environment. And of course, with your Victim Support and all the other work that you're doing, it seems that there's a theme there around people who have been victims in one way or another.
Now you've got a really personal story, I believe, around working in a toxic environment, being bullied, as much as you're obviously comfortable sharing. Would you mind offering a little bit of what happened?
Prof. Claire Collins 11:28
For sure. Well, I will talk about two examples because I think the second one would have happened in a different way had I not had the first example. So the first example was in my first job, actually, as a biomedical scientist. And I had a boss who himself was, I think, probably extremely insecure. I think he had difficult personal circumstances of his own. And he was very much, I don't know whether he had what we would call now bipolar. In those days, we would call it manic depressive. But certainly, you wouldn't know what kind of mood he was in the minute he walked through the door. And one day, I was called into his office, the person who had been on call the night before had spotted an error. So I hold my hand up, there was an error. And it was not an incompatibility or anything of that seriousness, but they had been stamped with the wrong date. And I should have picked that up and I didn't pick it up.
He then spent two hours absolutely wiping the floor with me. Everything that had happened in the laboratory for the previous, God knows how many years, some of which I hadn't even been there for. I hadn't even worked there or had been on holiday during those times. He just decided to let rip. And I just felt myself being diminished and I'm kind of thinking, hang on. I'm not the only person who works here. I completely hold my hand up to yesterday's issue. But all the rest of this is nothing to do with me. Anyway, on leaving his office, eventually, when he ran out of steam, I said, thank you for that. I will be finding another job as soon as I possibly can. And then of course, he comes chasing after me. Oh, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that. I didn't mean this. I didn't mean that. I left as soon as I could get away from him. It was a horrendous experience. So many years go by, I have all sorts of working relationships from then onwards, most of which were fabulous. And then I get to a situation where, again, we have a boss who is a narcissist, a bully. And the only saving grace in all of this is that I knew I wasn't the only one. Had we been able to amass enough concrete evidence, I reckon we would have dealt with this person. But as often happens with these people who are bullies, some of them at the extreme are psychopaths, certainly, misogynists, usually, there was insufficient concrete evidence that you could actually say, he did that. He did that. He didn't appoint her. He appointed him when they were both the same. We couldn't pin down. But I had personal experiences that went too far. And I was belittled. And I was made to feel inferior in front of colleagues. I was on the senior management team at the time. And I was ridiculed in front of them. I was shouted at in front of them.
My theory now is that you need three conditions to have this sort of playing into its worst environment. And it's a bit like fire needing oxygen fuel and igniting. The bully, you need a susceptible individual, that was me. And you need a condoning environment, an enabling environment. So we had our bully. I was the susceptible individual because I had been primed in that previous situation. I had been sensitized just as you would with an allergy or something like that. And the enabling environment was that everybody else in that meeting said nothing. Absolutely nothing. I could see colleagues eyebrows raised, but you could practically hear their chairs scraping backwards. And so there are things that need to be fixed in all of those three areas. But I, again, felt absolutely diminished. And at the time, I was having to manage a huge project, lead people who were my seniors, my superiors, act in a really confident way or else the project was not going to succeed. I had to be the leader. And yet I was being undermined by my own leader.
And that's a really difficult situation to handle. So now I want to work with people in two ways. So as you say, my work now as a non-executive, but and as a coach, I want to work with people in two ways. There's a group of people like I was, who really wanted to learn how to stand up to this person and how to neutralize the effect on me, but also their destructive power over other people that they were bullying also. I also want to help people who want to leave well, who know it's not their fault, but they want to leave the organization, get away from that person. They don't want to stand up to them.They don't want to fight with them, but they want to leave with their confidence intact, knowing that they were doing a good job and being able to go somewhere else that honors their career where they can flourish. Those are my two strings, if you like my two main scenarios of the people that I now help.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:22
It's saddening in so many ways to think that there is so much work to do in that space, that there are people out there who are living their daily lives in the workplace and feeling undermined and diminished and bullied and harassed and ridiculed and all the other words that you've just used to describe people's positions. There's so many people and it isn't just women. There are men also. It's not gender specific, is it?
Prof. Claire Collins 17:54
Absolutely not. It's really interesting because I kind of have as my golden sentence that I help professionally in toxic environments to get their career mojo back. Of the first four people that approached me, two of them were men.
Nadia Nagamootoo 18:08
It isn't just women. Does it play out differently for men and women from what you've seen in terms of themes?
Prof. Claire Collins 18:15
Fundamentally not. It played out in a way that for one, he had had a new female boss appointed above him, so she overdid it. I could get the dynamic between a woman and a very competent man being her junior. I get that dynamic, but she overplayed it and she made sure that every opinion that he gave, every contribution of fact that he gave, that she would criticize it or she would just laugh in a meeting or whatever and say, just belittle the comment and put him down. Absolutely, it could be a woman who's overplaying an insecurity and she's just getting it wrong instead of being confident and creating a partnership relationship with that person who's got lots of expertise. As we know in leadership and you know in leadership, you work with your best people. These people who've got talents in areas that you don't. You're the incomplete leader, which we all are. Instead of doing that, she overplayed her strength and bullied him to a point where his working life was just so miserable.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:32
Of course, it can happen to many leaders in that what you're talking about from her position, that overplaying. It's that fear of not being good enough, that fear of someone's going to find out that he's better than me. It frustrates me when I hear leaders like that. I fundamentally think if you haven't done the work on yourself as a leader for you to recognize your insecurities, for you to recognize what might play out in your behavior as a result of how you see yourself, your lack of self-worth or your lack of self-confidence, then you shouldn't be in the leadership position as far as I'm concerned until that work on self has been done.
Prof. Claire Collins 20:14
You're absolutely right and somewhat coming into her position, the organization would have been wise to give her three coaching sessions or whatever to make sure that she came in with that leadership confidence and not having the imposter syndrome, but the understanding that nobody is great at everything. Therefore, surround yourself with great people and work with them, work with their strengths, not against them. She deserved support as well, but he definitely did because he was then put in a situation that he hadn't in any way asked for.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:16
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This bullying behavior, we know it can be very overt. In the examples you gave, the room full of people who observed and witnessed what was happening to you, it was overt enough for people to be shifting in their seats and thinking, oh gosh, I really wish I wasn't here. They clearly didn't say anything, but it can also be really subtle as well. Have you got examples maybe from people you've worked with, clients or just examples of your own, I suppose, just to give highlights with the difference between the two and what we should be looking out for?
Prof. Claire Collins 22:33
For sure. Bullies can be everything from physical bullies, and I'm glad to say I've not witnessed any of that in the extreme, but really from physical bullying through to psychological undermining, sexual harassment, other kinds of harassment. So it can play out in all different ways. It can be in front of other people, as we've talked about in meetings, in group situations, but quite often the bully is very clever in that they will give their comments. Maybe it might be before a meeting or after a meeting, in the quiet of their own office, oh, could I just have five minutes with you before we go into the meeting? And they just fire enough demeaning remarks at you before a meeting that it puts you on edge, that it puts you on the back foot and makes what was going to be perhaps a confident presentation or a confident demeanor in the meeting.
It just puts that element of doubt into your mind as to, oh, am I speaking out of turn here? Am I making myself look like an idiot? They plant the seeds of doubt in your mind. So that's a subtle way of doing things, making you feel that you are the weak link in a situation or in a system. So making you feel that everybody else is doing a great job, but I'm a little bit worried about you. Are you okay? I've noticed recently that you haven't seemed to be quite yourself as much as normal. Again, planting those seeds of doubt in your mind and doing it in this pseudo caring way. Are you okay at the moment? So your bully, making sure that they sit with the power people around the table or that everybody knows that they went to dinner with the boss last night. In other words, I have the ear of the person who's going to be making decisions. So you better impress me or else I will make sure that so-and-so hears that you're not so good as you think you are.
It can play out in so many different ways. You have to have this susceptible follower, if you like, in order for that to really work. If you've got somebody who's really robust in their own self-confidence, and I've talked to many people, colleagues and whatever, where we've talked about these situations and they said, well, say that to me because he'd get his answer or she'd get their answer or whatever. And I've made a point of saying to some, can I ask you about your background a little bit? Do you feel that you've been bullied? No, not really.No. But what was your childhood like? Oh, I had a lovely childhood. They've grown up in a way where they're properly grounded in their own abilities and their own confidence. And so whatever somebody says to them is not going to knock them off their axis.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:42
Yes. They've got this resilience.
Prof. Claire Collins 25:44
Exactly. They've got this solid foundation. And that's what I'm trying to give back to the people that I'm working with is to say, let's reset your solid foundation, that nobody gets to talk to you like that and get away with sort of thing. Nobody gets to you like that to undermine you. And I don't have that problem as much anymore. I wouldn't say I'm 100% cured, but I reckon I'm 95.6% there. But it is about understanding that your opinion is valid, understanding that you have expertise in a area and that if somebody comes along who isn't an expert in that area and criticizes you, you are able to push back and say, so if someone wanted to come into this room of us two now and be a third person and start telling you and me, you particularly, about diversity and equity and inclusion, we have enough data, enough facts, enough evidence at our fingertips to say, actually, that's not quite right because da-da-da-da-da. Whereas a clever bully will make you realize that even if you are the expert, somehow they know better, somehow they know more than you do, and they will just get to your nervous spot.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:07
I'm listening to you, and it definitely resonates with personal experiences that I have had in the past. And there's always that moment of questioning. I would always go to myself first, like not questioning what they've said or their statement of fact, but questioning me. And that's what you're talking about in terms of that sort of a more fragile foundation where the first response in someone who's more susceptible to being bullied is to go to themselves and start questioning themselves. That is true. Maybe I hadn't thought that through properly, or maybe I did say that, and start really going into themselves. And is that the pattern then?
Prof. Claire Collins 27:54
Yes, I think it is, that you start to think, oh, have I misremembered? So if you come out with, let's take Black Lives Matter, which was a big thing in the world at that moment in time and has carried through ever since quite rightly. So the strategy that an organization should follow in response to what happened with Black Lives Matter, of course there needed to be action taken, there needed to be messaging going out, there needed to be an important message in terms of how individuals and organizations regarded that situation in the world. On the other hand, there's still the balance of lots and lots of other groups and minorities who need to be supported. They haven't disappeared in all of this. The spotlight has been shone in one particular place. For somebody to come along and tell you, who knows and has experienced so much, someone with no knowledge whatsoever, to come and tell you that you were an idiot, that you didn't know what you were talking about, that would be quite offensive. And yet you immediately think, oh, what do they know that I don't know? What have I missed? What have I missed?
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:11
Yes.
Prof. Claire Collins 29:12
I think one of the skills is to build up the confidence. I would be saying to myself, oh, come on, Claire, you've been living this. You've been working with this. You work with people who know such a lot about this. You're on firm ground here. Push back, push back. And it's really, and it's that limbic system where somebody says something to you that immediately connects with your emotional system to undermine your own firm foundation. And you need to just take that moment to say, no, hang on a sec. Let's think this through. This isn't correct because, and then you can start to lay out the foundation of where you're coming from. And it's part of what we're doing is to try and help people to take that moment, to think past their limbic system and think into their neocortex where the logical thinking is taking place to say, actually, no, this is what I know. This is the way we should go forward. This is what will work. And this is what is equitable and diverse and inclusive. So it's really important to enable people to get themselves back onto that firm foundation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:33
Yeah. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about that concept of gaslighting, which is a really subtle form of the bully, like almost rewriting history, rewriting reality and making the person feel like they have made something up, that what just happened in that meeting, just that their memory has failed them somehow. Do you come across that in your work? And what's the impact of, I suppose I'm thinking like over time, so day in, day out, week on week, this contact with this particular bully who's gaslighting, who's minimizing, who's diminishing, what's the impact on the individual?
Prof. Claire Collins 31:15
I think one of the major impacts that I've observed is in someone's decision-making ability. So the gaslighter will gradually chip away at decisions that are made and question whether that was the right decision. Or it might've been the choice between the lesser of two evils, but the gaslighter persuades them that they chose the wrong one every time. And so gradually it just chips away so that the person, the victim, I hate calling people victims, but the victim starts to look at future decisions and doubting their ability to make the next decision. And that's where the transition goes from what I'm doing now into what I do in the future. And so they start to look at every decision and it can go down to the tiniest level.
So it isn't just about major strategic things that we're doing. It can be, you know, well, what do I tell somebody tomorrow? What do I say in this meeting?It's this or that, what do I advise? And so they start to just question everything that they do. And that's a really difficult state to be in because how do you start trusting yourself again? And a clear strategy is to look at all the great decisions that you make every day, but that's one really clear place that the gaslighter will undermine someone.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:38
How prevalent is this? Like, do you have any statistics? How many people experience workplace bullying and being in a toxic work environment?
Prof. Claire Collins 32:48
So there's a really good CIPD report that people can access that talks about bullying and gaslighting. PD estimate that about 15% of, so it's a sixth or seventh, one in seven, people feel that they're being bullied and gaslighted. However, the real figure is probably a lot higher than that because the vast majority of people don't report it because they don't feel that they will be believed. In the United States, there is a particularly worsening problem. People being advised not to report bullying or gaslighting to HR because they will take the organization's side. And if it's a person that's more senior to you, they will take their side.
I think that happens less in the UK. I think our culture is slightly different, but there's still a fear that if I go and say something because it's about my boss or about my boss's boss or whatever, that I won't be believed. It'll be a black mark against me. So the real figure is probably much higher than 15%. However, that's about creating a better organizational culture, but also creating allies, people who observe these things going on and who are prepared to call it out. So we are gradually changing the culture. And in some industries, you see it a lot more than others. In the fast moving, particularly the financial services sector or in the extremely commercial sectors, it happens more than say in caring professions or public sector. But it happens a lot there too.That's not to say that it's not happening there. But there are areas where it happens more than others.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:38
Gosh. And there's evidence that, I mean, you've spoken a little bit about this sort of neurological, what's happening in the brain. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Are there any long term effects from a neurological perspective of being bullied and being in a workplace like that?
Prof. Claire Collins 34:54
Absolutely. Well, because I'm a coach, I've done quite a bit of research around this and it's a form of trauma and people at the extreme can suffer PTSD.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:05
Really?
Prof. Claire Collins 35:06
Yeah, absolutely. In a similar way to if you had been in a car crash or an accident or something. I'm not sure and I don't know whether it can manifest itself in the same way that PTSD does in say service military people. I don't know. But certainly if you've had an experience that has shocked you like an accident or some incident that's caused PTSD, it can go that far. But even people who are a step back from that, the long term trauma can be debilitating.
It can end careers very easily indeed. So people, you can find that people who've been in professional roles, who've been in managerial roles have become so belittled and ridiculed and have lost such confidence that they move out of their profession and they get a much, if you like, a lower stress, lower decision making role because they just can't face it anymore. And unless they have some kind of therapy or coaching or whatever, it becomes a long term issue. So it needs to be overcome so that they can have a happy life again.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:26
When you're speaking about that in particular, I'm reminded of so many women, particularly mothers, who have spoken to me about that feeling of returning to work post having had a child and feeling like they weren't good enough anymore, that whatever they were doing was looked down upon, that they were being diminished. And so that fallout of the workplace that we often see at that point in a woman's life after she's had children and then going to work as a teaching assistant in the local school or in the office at the local school or at the local supermarket, which tends to suit better because she's local to home, so it suits her caring responsibilities, but ultimately didn't have to happen if her confidence hadn't been knocked to such great an extent. Is that a common story you come across?
Prof. Claire Collins 37:23
I do come across that. And it's really interesting. You're talking about a particular group of people there, and there are groups of people that are particularly susceptible to this. But where you've got a returning mother who perhaps wants to work part-time, comes back to work, and then find that their colleagues are ganging up against them because they're only part-time now, that they can't get promotion because they're only part-time now, and they're not putting in as much effort as other people. That group of people are bullied because of their perceived lack of input to the workload. But it isn't just people like that in that group.So, if we think about other groups of people. So, if you've got, and I came across a grouping like this before, an individual who was married, no children, but married to a person who was fairly controlling, who expected them to be home at a particular hour, dinner on the table, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Highly intelligent individual, but working with a group of people who, the rest of them were singles, and time was of their own choosing. And they were all turning the workplace into a play place as well. So, they would work well into the evening, into the nighttime, they'd order pizza in, they'd play football up and down the corridor, in between getting loads of work done. The married person was marginalised because she had to go home at a particular time. She was just doing her normal working hours, but because she wasn't putting in all of this extra overtime, she was discriminated against and bullied as a consequence. So, going home now, are we? Part-time now, are we? There are other groups of people where if an individual or a group decide to pick on them, they can easily become the bullied, the gaslighted, the marginalised individual.
Nadia Nagamootoo 39:31
That actually reminds me of my MBA dissertation where I was looking at fathers in the workplace and how when I did my focus groups for that, some of the men were saying they would drop their child off at nursery or whatever, then come into the office and they would get comments from their colleagues looking at, not so subtle, looking at their watch going, all right, good afternoon. They've come in at half nine or even quarter past nine. It's not the afternoon, it's just this really clear, we've all been here for a while and you've all stayed in a quarter past nine. That feeling of just being put down, that they need to demonstrate that additional pressure, that they need to show that they are still committed and they are still doing their job. It was a multitude of factors for them.
Prof. Claire Collins 40:21
Because I also remember very distinctly in your dissertation, one of the questions you asked was around flexible working. One of the typical replies coming back from the men was, no, I wouldn't ask for flexible working because it would be held against me in terms of my career progression. That's really stuck in my mind that we expect when women return, particularly after maternity leave, but sometimes for other reasons and ask for flexible working, well, they get discriminated against because of lack of dedication.
That's actually against the law and yet it happens and you do get, then it's not necessarily just a singular bully, it can be a group sort of ganging up against that one person and making their lives absolutely intolerable so that they end up leaving. It's not acceptable. So there's so much that still needs to change in terms of the organisational culture and the way people need to work to fit in with their whole lives, not just their working lives, but their whole lives.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:27
Absolutely. And what are some of the recommendations you would have for organisations to put a stop to this toxic environment, this bullying environment that plays out in many organisations, often covertly, but sometimes shockingly overtly. How can we advise organisations to do more?
Prof. Claire Collins 41:48
First of all, have a very clear policy about this kind of behaviour that it will not be tolerated and I will put joint top with that, lead from the top. So the chief executive, the board, whoever it might be, they need to lead by example. And I've seen great hospital trust, he would always go home at five on a Tuesday to take his kids swimming. That was their swimming night. I believe didn't Keir Starmer say he wanted to be home on a Friday night because that was family dinner night. He got a lot of criticism for that, but why should he? So have a clear policy, lead from the top by example, those are really powerful things to do. So you don't turn a blind eye, create allies and advocates so that it's absolutely fine for people to speak on behalf of someone else, call out behaviour and enable people to go and talk to HR if they feel that they need to. But first of all, to have just a conversation about what's going on.
Can this be dealt with informally? And I don't mean that as a cop out. I mean it in the case of some people can display certain behaviours completely inadvertently. I really believe in, don't shoot the messenger, don't shoot the innocent kind of thing. If somebody's getting wrong because they don't understand that they're getting it wrong, let's change that belief and let's change that behaviour. But then if this persists and if this is to other people, absolutely take them down the disciplinary policy, give the policy teeth so that actually won't be tolerated.
And people have had warnings to the point of people have been dismissed as a consequence of their behaviour. But make it very clear that there's an opportunity to change that behaviour, first of all, if you can, if you want to, and if you are committed to that. And also, if necessary, have some kind of reconciliation process so that the perpetrator, if you like, and the victim can have a conversation about where things were going wrong and can perhaps try to heal that relationship and work together. Because that's always the best way to carry on if you can. If not, separate them somehow. But don't destroy people's careers because of it.
So I think the organisation has got a big responsibility and training, of course. Give people the understanding of what's okay and what's not okay with lots of examples. Don't be abstract about the training. Do it in a way where people really can see. So whether that's getting a load of actors in to do it, doing some role play, whatever it might be, making little videos, but do it in a way that people might even think, Oh, that was me. Sorry. And can then have a conversation about it. So yeah, be open, be clear.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:54
We've used an online simulation tool at Avenir, something that we've designed for our clients where leaders can actually walk through some very typical scenarios that display exclusionary behaviours, bullying behaviours, bias of some kind, so that they can kind of have a discussion about it and pick it up. And what I like about what you've just said is that we're not going for a cancel culture here. So there's one extreme where you let the bullying and the toxic behaviours just do whatever they like and let it go. There's another extreme where you just cancel everyone who demonstrates any form of active exclusion, whether intentionally or not. So I really think organisations need to be cautious of these two extremes and find that happy medium where what you're talking about, you have to spend time with leaders, not assuming that they know what is exclusionary and what isn't. Don't always assume that they're deliberately undermining, diminishing other people.
There are obviously people out there who do that. And that's what you're talking about in terms of giving them a chance, holding them to account and going through a formal process if it gets to that point. But I think it's important to find that balance of offering the opportunity and the training and all of that. And then if people persist, then obviously that's different. Gosh, I could talk to you so much about this.
Prof. Claire Collins 46:26
I know we could go on for ages.
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Back to the episode.
Prof. Claire Collins 47:12
The other thing I was just going to say is if it still then persists, build the evidence, build the evidence about what's happening. So, if men are being promoted over women, if you are being talked down to, build the evidence, write down, if you can remember it, write down the things that the person has said so that they can face that. You may even have done it yourself. I know that I've put my foot in it from time to time. Yeah, definitely. But I also know that I think with my teams, they know me well enough that they could say, ouch, you know, that wasn't quite said in the way you meant it, I think. And they can do it in a way that, you know, pulls you up and you will say, oh, yeah, sorry, sorry, I didn't mean it that way. And you're genuine about it. That's a good place to be because none of us are perfect. The next best place to be is, I didn't realize I was saying those things, but now you've pointed it out to me, I will do better in the future. Obviously, I'm paraphrasing. The extreme is, I don't care. I'm going to be me and I really don't care. You just got to suck it up. Then you've got to take some kind of action. And obviously, I'm giving a very stark scenario there. But if we can do something about it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:28
But there are leaders who believe that, look, I am who I am and take me as I am. You know, I might come out with something a bit harsh, a bit brash, but, you know, you want to work in this team, I'm not changing for anyone.
Prof. Claire Collins 48:42
It's interesting because I've worked with people who, if you looked at it from the outside, can be quite flippant, can be quite non-PC, let's say. But if you know deeply that this is absolutely not meant in any discriminatory way, I hate to use the word banter, but it's an environment where you're kind of buzzing off each other up to a point, and I will make this clear, up to a point, that can be okay when you, you know, you fire off each other and it's fun and it's like this, as long as there's nothing serious about it, then all right. But there are definitely lines over which one should not step.And that's where the organisation needs to make it clear.
Nadia Nagamootoo 49:28
I have a final question for you, which I'm asking all of my guests this season, and it's related to my book, which you have, I know you've been championing and supporting and advocating. So you know what it's about, which is around engaging leaders in these inclusive practices. And I'm asking all my guests, if there has been a moment for you as a leader where you have found yourself beyond discomfort, where you've discovered something about yourself that you hadn't realised, maybe inadvertently offending or hurting someone, you know, excluding someone. And what was that moment? And how did you move beyond discomfort to do something about it?
Prof. Claire Collins 50:11
So first of all, one of the things that I really love about your book is that it looks at these scenarios from all the different angles. And so any leader would be able to identify themselves in one of these positions, you know, you might be very self aware, but you've inadvertently done something. I have to say, I failed on the thinking where I'd really done something myself. But I did think of an example. I observed a very senior leader who was being impressed upon them that we all needed to be fairer. And we were talking about the Equality Act and the different characteristics. So this leader decided to then gather all of the people in his team that were from a BAME background, sit them down in one place, and ask them pointedly whether he was a good boss. Am I a good boss? Yes.
Am I a good boss? Yes. Am I a good boss? Yes. Oh, wow. And then went back to the senior team and said, I have it on clear authority from all of my team that I'm a good boss and that I don't treat them any differently from the white people in my team. And I was just completely gobsmacked. And I thought, if there wasn't a better example of somebody not understanding equality and diversity and inclusion, that was it. So I have to say, that was my thing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:45
Gosh. And it's such a brilliant example of just wanting that positive affirmation, that confirmation so desperately. I mean, how he thought that people were actually going to give him the truth by asking them so directly, it's beyond me. But thank you so much, Claire, for sharing everything that you've shared today, both personal stories as well as your incredible vast experience working with people who have experienced, sadly, such bullying and toxic environments. If people want to get hold of you, where's the best place to find you? Are you on socials?
Prof. Claire Collins 52:27
I am on socials. Have a look on my LinkedIn profile, Claire Collins coaching. If you do Claire Collins Henley or anything, you'll find me.And so my LinkedIn profile is there. Get in touch with me that way, or email me claire@clairecollinscoaching.co.uk. It's a bit of a mouthful, but it does what it says on the thing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 52:50
Brilliant. Well, everything that Claire and I spoke about today is going to be available in the usual show notes page under my website, www.nadianagamootoo.com under podcasts. Claire, thank you a million times over for spending this time with me firstly, but also for sharing so generously your expertise and advice. I've very much enjoyed speaking to you and thank you.
Prof. Claire Collins 53:18
Well, it's always a pleasure to speak with you and I'm looking forward to a catch up sometime, but thank you for having me on. And if this helps one person, job done.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:27
Exactly. Thank you. That concludes episode 47 of Why Care.Claire so helpfully outlined the neuroscience behind bullying. I didn't realize the brain processes. It's like post-traumatic stress disorder.It only highlights even more the importance of preventing such toxic behavior in organizations. Sadly, workplace bullying is still prevalent and those with underrepresented characteristics are more susceptible. Claire would welcome anyone getting in touch if they need support. Her contact details are in the show notes. Do let Claire and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Insta with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo.
As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and to Jenny Lynton for getting it out there on social media.
