Why Care? #7: Emma Mainoo - Mental Health & Surviving Sundays
“You are far more likely to work with somebody that is experiencing suicidal thoughts than with somebody that is about to have a heart attack”
In this episode I have a powerful and inspiring conversation with Emma Mainoo, Partner and Head of Mental Health at Utopia, the culture-change consultancy I collaborate with, which works with businesses to create more purposeful, more inclusive, and more entrepreneurial cultures. She is the creator of the platform Surviving Sundays, a Mental Health First Aid Course instructor and a remarkable keynote speaker on mental health.
Emma shares with us her personal experience from being an extraordinarily successful Marketing and PR professional who has worked on award winning campaigns with leading brands, to experiencing life-threatening depression and a total mental breakdown and the subsequent healing process she went through. She now helps leading companies to address the increasing problem of tackling mental health issues amongst their workforce with her unique and taboo-breaking perspective.
Together we explore the impact of the pandemic on people’s mental health and we discuss the link to the #BlackLivesMatter movement and how it affected us. Emma explains some actionable steps organisations need to take to create a culture where people feel like they can speak out and people know how to reach in. You can also hear about Mental Health First Aid training and why it is now a necessity for any successful and creative organisation. I have thoroughly enjoyed and learned from this conversation and I hope you will too.
Show links:
Surviving Sundays: www.survivingsundays.com on Instagram @surviving_sundays
Emma Mainoo on LinkedIn
Utopia: www.weareutopia.co on Instagram @weareutopians and LinkedIn
Transcript
Emma Mainoo 00:00
In addition, to fight for my life, really, the breakdown was as debilitating as it sounds, it's been exhausting, having fatigue, being unable to meet my basic needs, and isolating myself. I was out of work for a period of time, it was really the darkest time in my life.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 00:19
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organizational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated.
With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences, and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to Episode seven of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. As we know mental health issues are on the rise in the UK and the year 2020 has brought a steep incline in these statistics. But why? And what can organizations do to better support their employees? Why does the stigma associated with mental health exist? And how can we all better understand our friends and loved ones who are experiencing mental health problems? These questions and many more will be answered on today's podcast when I speak to my guest on the show Emma Mainoo. She spent 20 years working in the marketing industry, during which time she secretly battled with anxiety and depression. In 2012, Emma had a breakdown and began a healing journey which led to her creating Surviving Sundays in 2018, a storytelling platform that offers hope and inspiration to anyone who's experiencing poor mental health. She is now a partner at the consultancy Utopia heading up the mental health practice. She shares her journey in its rawest form, what it truly felt like, and how she covered up her mental health issues to offer the strong exterior her work expected. Emma talks about the impact of COVID-19 on mental health and how the death of George Floyd personally impacted her. Her honesty, humility and willingness to show her vulnerability is inspiring. I hope you enjoy listening.
Hello, Emma, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us.
Emma Mainoo 03:18
Thank you for having me today. I'm really looking forward to having a conversation with you.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 03:21
I'm super excited because there's so many things I want to talk to you about but maybe it will just be helpful, because I'm trying to understand your background originally as a brand consultant, right. And now you've moved into this space of mental health and you'd call yourself a mental health campaigner. You've done some amazing work in this space and I'm just really interested initially just to hear a little bit about your path and how you came to move from brand consultancy to working in the mental health space.
Emma Mainoo 03:53
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because I could never, ever, have seen myself where I am today doing what I'm doing, yet it feels like the place that I am my most authentic. It's the place that I feel most satisfied and the happiest I've been actually in my work life. So yeah, I spent a long, long time working in the marketing industry. I worked in PR initially, at the age of 22, I had my own PR and events company, it really just honed my skills in marketing, and I worked in the lifestyle and fashion space for a long time. I went on to be a marketing manager within some fashion brands and that was kind of like my lot. And throughout that period, I look to all the world, like you're doing these great parties, you're hanging out with celebrities. You know, a lot of what I did was about product placement with celebrities before the dawn of Instagram and those kind of brands, it was really about building relationships with talent.
So I was getting to know a lot of celebrities, you know and doing all of that. People knew that and I think that people just assume because you're doing a certain thing that appears to be quite glamorous that you must be very glamorous, right? You must be a certain type of person and there was a whole lifestyle that went with PR and marketing, quite booze fueled, not very fulfilling, and for probably about 20 years of my life, I was hiding mental health challenges. So, I've been diagnosed with an eating disorder when I was around the age of 18 but my problems with food, and my mental health really go back to me being about 14. And there you have a 20-year period, it was 34, when I had a breakdown and there were 20 years there of working in marketing. I went on to work in the media industry, where I was really hiding in plain sight, doing these great jobs, working with great clients, travelling internationally, having great responsibility, always showing up and doing my best work, because the workplace was the only place that I ever felt like I had any value.
My whole life has kind of been marked by low self-esteem, trauma, bullying, and I had experienced abusive relationships and all of these compounds, the thoughts and feelings that you are just not worthy and you’re not good enough. And this kind of went on for a while. And it was a cloud that hung over me, I often felt dark, and something other that I couldn't explain, I don't think I knew really that it was always depression, I think I just thought I was a bit of a negative miserable soul, it just couldn't get right. Sometimes you try and talk to people, they might just tell you, you're a bit of a drain. I went through life feeling like that for a very long time and because I felt that way, the way that I combat it, was just really applying myself to work, being obsessed with perfection, being a people pleaser, not wanting anyone, my friends and my partner to see the real me.
And so I was masquerading throughout a lot of my life. And then at the age of 34, there was a personal situation that impacted my life heavily and I had a breakdown. And that situation was by no means the worst thing that ever happened to me but it was almost as if in that kind of instance, that 20 years of hiding in plain sight, could no longer be the case. So, kind of in that moment, overnight, it was this situation where demons that had been hidden just came to the fore and I just crumbled. And this was the beginning of me kind of like having the worst time that actually became the best time. The vision to fight for my life really, the breakdown was as debilitating as it sounds like, being exhausted, having fatigue, being unable to meet my basic needs, isolating myself.
I was out of work for a period of time, it was really the darkest time in my life. But thanks to the intervention of a friend who connected me with a therapist, I went on to have one conversation that led to hundreds of conversations that not only saved my life but put me on a trajectory where I started to think about my experiences through a different lens, in which ultimately, I went back into the workplace. I got back on my feet, I was still hiding what I was going through, my closest friends knew I was in therapy but that's not something you bring into the workplace. And so the masquerade went on for some years, but two years ago, I just thought it was a really good point in time to get honest about what I've been through.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 08:31
Yeah, I'm really interested in that particular point in time where actually, you recognized in yourself, you need some help, and you are getting that help. And yet, despite that there was this sort of taboo in the world, aside from your friends, obviously knowing and supporting you in what you're going through with the therapy, actually the outside world and those people potentially close to you in the workplace. You're not alone, pretty certain of that. So what goes on for people? Why is it hard to have this conversation with people?
Emma Mainoo 09:01
I think a lot of the stigma initially is internalized and there are a lot of feelings of shame. Yeah, and we're getting better, but society is largely afraid of having difficult conversations, afraid of kind of broaching conversations that are difficult. People are afraid to broach conversations that are difficult with you in case they make it worse or in case they feel uncomfortable, and they don't quite have the answers, or they don't know what to say. There's years and years of film and television that tells us that people that are depressed are kind of defined by it or miserable to be around, you kind of feel that, there's a lot of shame around that. And I at first didn't have the emotional language to explain what I was going through. If you've asked me I’ll have just said dark and tired. Then when I obviously went on my recovery journey, and I was in therapy, that was something I would share with my friends. But there was some circumstantial stuff going on. So, like there were years and years where I just hid it and escaped through all the ways that you do when you're drinking and partying, just trying to be like everybody else.
But when my breakdown happened, it didn't just happen and then end in a few months. I was in recovery for, I would say, at least a year, as I tried to get over the initial shock and trauma. And within that year, I started a new job in an industry that I didn't know. So, I've been in marketing, I've been in PR, but media was new to me. And I'm in a new company with people that don't know me, don't know my past experiences and so you're putting on a brave face. And you're never going to tell somebody in a new company that you've got mental health problems, especially when you're a leader in that business, which I was.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 10:37
Wow. So there's something there, isn't there about a message to organizations. And did you speak to your line manager?
Emma Mainoo 10:44
I did have a boss that I was really close to, like, he’s one of my really good friends now. And my stepfather died during my time there. It’s just like three years of just horrendous things just kept happening. And my step-father I was really close to had been diagnosed with Alzheimers, and that whole process of watching him, just, and then he died, his passing was very difficult. I was with him the two, maybe three days, that he passed, it was all quite traumatic. But upon my return to work, I started to have more open and nice conversations with my boss because his death had provided an opportunity for somebody to start asking how I was, I guess, and I was able to talk more honestly, in relation to that. And that was probably the only time I probably spoke about my mental health in the workplace.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 11:33
So almost because it was acceptable and even indeed accepted that you would be grieving, that you would be in a state of bereavement and so therefore, that acknowledgement that you could therefore offer that, yeah, actually, I'm not okay, you felt more able to speak about, is that right?
Emma Mainoo 11:51
Yeah. And I just think like, I would never say to them, that they ignored anything, I think they simply didn't know, there may have been moments, and it was quite boozy in media. My whole career has been kind of aligned with booze culture, maybe we'd go out boozing, and I was always like, really drunk, or just a bit like putting myself in situations that as a boss you just want to be maintaining your proper I guess. And I would always be oversharing or just a bit emotional in those situations. And I think that may have been the only occasions where it may have been evident that I wasn't okay but really, you know, I did the work, I gave great results. I was always having a laugh with the team. So I just don't think there was a moment where somebody may have asked me, or may have thought to ask me if I was okay, to be honest with you.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 12:44
And it's interesting, because now, as I've listened to a number of your interviews and podcasts that you've done already. When someone asks you, how are you doing? How are you today? Actually, where most people would just be like, yeah, good, thanks. I really have noticed that it's quite a reflective answer, and you're very honest, and open, is that something you've practiced over time, or is that part of your learning through the therapy?
Emma Mainoo 13:09
No, fine was like my word for years. And the blog, in fact, is called Surviving Sundays, because Sunday was my most kind of lonely, it was the day that I kind of feared the most throughout the week, from about Wednesday, I’ll start worrying about the weekend. And Sunday would come around, and I'd be worrying about the week ahead, because of the Monday morning tea point conversation when everybody asked you how your weekend was and what you did, and, you know, people would say like fine or great, and then just move on.
And I carry that energy through the week, where I was kind of hiding how sad and lonely, and all these different feelings I was having, and I was in therapy then. The difference came for me when I launched Surviving Sundays two years ago, it was like, I am laying myself bare now. I'm telling everybody what I've been through. I'm not hiding anymore. And when anybody then would like, it was quite nerve-wracking because people I've known for years kind of came forward and said, we didn't know, we wish we'd been there for you, we had no idea. I remember the day that I launched the stories, feeling very, very vulnerable and hearing the word brave played back to you is like, on one hand, you know that the intention is to tell you that you've done something great, but you're also wow, does that mean you wouldn't do it? Like, have I really like screwed up here? Am I not going to work again or am I not going to date again?
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:26
I see.
Emma Mainoo 14:27
That provided a moment for me to be seen and to show myself and at that point, I have continued and my journey has taken other things into account now that made me more honest. And ultimately, when I look at where I am today now as the head of the mental health practice at Utopia, it came from that moment two years ago, when even the work that I was doing, kind of, in media and marketing. At that point, I was working in a creative business, I was a partner, and it really started to make me look at everything around me and think about the things that are making me happy, that my happiness is something that I had control over now that I had been honest.
And so I kind of left a really good job, a really good company, took a leap, went freelance so that I could work on surviving Sundays. And then I just started to engage more with Nadia and Daniele, who I knew from Utopia, they asked me to come in and be a speaker. And I realized that when I went into companies that I once probably had been in contact with through the media agency or marketing work, and you're going in there, because they're having a session about how to make their business more inclusive, happier, healthier, and you're coming in and telling a mental health story. To that point, really, I've been putting these pieces out online and kind of getting an online reaction, and then in a room with people, and I'm seeing heads nodding, I'm seeing a tear in somebody's eyes, I’m hugging and holding hands. And it was a turning point for me because that work was unlike anything else I'd ever done before. And I had led award-winning campaigns, raising projects that people dream of.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 16:13
It's an incredible story. And what I'm hearing then is that you've recognized the power of sharing your story and the impact, therefore, you can have on individuals.
Emma Mainoo 16:25
The reason I started Surviving Sundays was to tell my story but the reason I wanted to tell my story was really because I knew how alone I felt during my darkest time and I knew the power of a story. I've worked in marketing for years, I've helped brands to tell their stories and there is nothing that can cut through I believe, like, honesty. It’s like when you buy a product, you either know that the messaging around it feels false or it resonates with you. Something will resonate with you and a human story is somebody's personal truth. So telling that and getting the reaction, meeting people, we might not be doing this for a while now, but you know, I‘ll do a talk, I'd be on a panel or now a keynote speaker as well and you ask for questions from the audience, you get some questions.
Then everyone puts their hand down and you think everybody's left the room, and then you're packing your stuff up and then I turn around, and there is always a person there wanting to have a conversation that they felt like they couldn't have in front of others. And sometimes they're asking about themselves. and that was the first time maybe they’ve heard someone or something that resonates with them, or they’re telling you about, I mean, I've sat with people after talks for like an hour before like talking about sisters-in-law and brothers and partners, just having conversations that they have not been able to have with anybody before. So it's really powerful.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 17:48
It’s so powerful. And I don't know anyone really now, who doesn't know someone, whether it's themselves, whether it's their partner, whether it's their brother, their sister, or family member, who hasn't, I suppose, been impacted in some way by mental health, in various ways, obviously, it shows itself in so many different forms. And it's such a hard thing, I think, to know, if it's not something that you're living through, if it's a close family member, what to say, what to do, what that person's going through, how to connect with that individual. And from an organizational perspective, I think organizations are recognizing that more and more people are being affected by mental health. And I really feel that we've done a good job bringing it to the fore, and there are some incredibly famous people bringing it to the fore in terms of a conversation, being heard, being listened to, and demonstrating that vulnerability. And yet organizations I feel, are still unsure about how to have that conversation, what to say, what to do, how best to support people, how to make it not taboo, and how to make it an open conversation. So what is the work that you're doing to help with that?
Emma Mainoo 18:57
So as you said, telling a story is incredibly powerful but there's a bit of like people wanting to have these cultures where it's open, where people can talk, and they bring people in, or they have their own ambassadors within their own mental health ambassador teams that happen to share their stories. But then we say, well, what next? Because having a culture that's open, it does take work. It takes work to get to that place. But then what, you know, what is the expectation of employees? How can they be supported? And how can they support each other? So some of the things that I do within my work at Utopia, there's something that I deliver and do called an awkward conversation, which quite frankly, addresses the fact that conversations about mental health can be awkward. They can feel uncomfortable, and we get on the page with that at the beginning. We talk about the thoughts and feelings that are going through our minds. If we want to have a conversation with somebody, is it that we fear that we don't have the answer? Do we worry that we're going to make it worse or that we're going to say the wrong thing? So we kind of like acknowledge that that's a truth for many people and then we start to work through some steps for having those conversations.
I also do some listening groups with companies where I create a safe space for people to come in within a structured framework and talk about some experiences that they're having. And there are a number of different things that I do in this space that are about being action-orientated and solutions focused. So hacking workshops, where we kind of introduced people to mental health, they think they know what it is, do they really, we look at what it is, the difference between mental health and mental illness, and then we look at the ways in which people can create their own solutions because every business is different. And also, like the reason that I'm able to do that, I'm very clear on the fact that I'm not a counsellor and I'm not a therapist. So, you have to have that duty of care and you have to know your boundary. And so there are times when I will bring in therapy partners to support with the work where it's needed but also, I took it upon myself to train as a mental health first aid instructor, so that I would have the evidence-based framework to lean on, so I teach an adult course.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 21:10
Tell me a bit more about it, because it's quite a new thing, isn't it, to have Mental Health First Aiders in an organization? Tell me a little bit more about what it is and what you offer in the course.
Emma Mainoo 21:20
Yeah, so Mental Health First Aid has actually been going since 2001 when it was conceived in Australia in 2001, introduced to England in 2007, and that says a lot that people are now talking about it and wanting it but it's been around for 13 years in this country. It came about as a result of the truth, that if somebody fell over now cut their finger, or had a heart attack in their workplace, somebody is going to help them because we have to have First Aiders in our businesses. However, you're far more likely to be in contact, to know somebody, to work with somebody who is experiencing suicidal thoughts than you are somebody that's about to have a heart attack. And that isn't taken into consideration presently, within all businesses. So the Mental Health First Aid course is much the same as a physical first aid course. It's not about being a doctor, it's not about being a therapist, it is about helping somebody to have a supportive conversation but also helping to preserve life until professional help arrives. So it's about having somebody in your business that has the skills, has a framework, and has the confidence to have a conversation about mental health with somebody but also they have the ability to intervene in a mental health crisis. Let's say there was a psychotic instance, somebody had a psychosis in the business and they had a psychotic episode, they will be able to support, and they would know what to do.
So, it's really important and it's really valuable. And it's a course that I first went on to become a First Aider because through Surviving Sundays, I was getting a lot of questions, should I do this? Should I have therapy? How would you manage this? I can give a lived experience but really, I needed to learn how to set a boundary between where I could give advice, where I needed to signpost, and to who I could signpost. So I became a mental health first aider and then from that, I saw how great the course was and how needed it was. And so, I trained as an instructor, so now I teach that course, it's been lovely, actually. We were teaching it over two days in what I termed the real world, in a classroom but that kind of came to a stop at the end of February and it's now resumed online. So I'm now teaching people online and it's a wonderful experience. I mean, I've been teaching this week and teaching some great companies this week. And what you get is a situation where people that work together, really, really get to know each other because you can't get through this course, it's not a requirement but you find that along the way, as you're going through it, you can't kind of get through it without sharing something.
We cover, depression, suicide prevention, eating disorders, anxiety, psychosis, self-harm, recovery, and so many things, that along the way people open up about people they've known or maybe things they've gone through. And so it's a really great thing for teams to do if they can. And what I will say is, you were saying at the beginning of this, you know, what can companies do? Are they taking mental health seriously? What I will say is at the start of this year and last year, I do an open course where people can drop in and I do private courses for companies. And those open courses, I'll be honest, they were really hard to fill. You were kind of pushing it, pushing it and the private courses were kind of one here and one there. Since the pandemic, like when lockdown started, I was getting inquiries then and obviously saying like, I can't run a course, we really wanted the course to be online with the company saying look, we know now just the desire for mental health in general and that support has just increased since the pandemic.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 25:00
Speak a little bit about that, because I think we can all make some assumptions about what people have gone through and why mental health now is becoming more prevalent in terms of issues people are having, because of, well, the pandemic and everything, the stress, the anxiety and everything it's brought. Have you come across themes of what's gone on for people during this time, which makes it particularly key now, as we transition out of lockdown, to increase the support around mental health?
Emma Mainoo 25:32
So first of all, there are commonalities in the challenges that people are facing. So at first, there was definitely a state of shock that everybody went through as they pivoted. People are getting laptops and computer monitors sent to their homes, trying to set up at home, trying to find a place where they can work peacefully, trying to manage children, expectations, fears about family, worries about getting coronavirus, worries about work, if they were safe in their jobs, perhaps their partners. There wasn't a furlough scheme initially, there was no idea of how people could support themselves. There was a lot of anxiety in the initial phases, that people who've never had anxiety, probably didn't recognize as anxiety, that anxiety and shock for many people turned into things like fatigue and a lack of motivation. The brain is kind of being stimulated in ways that it's not used to being stimulated, as you're simply just trying to get up, get dressed, and find some motivation. And people started to feel quite exhausted, finding it hard to show up. We're then getting Zoom fatigue coming in, ideas about wanting to show up at work, fears about job security to people over presenting themselves, not being able to strike that balance between work and life because now we’re at home, when do we switch off?
A lot of that was happening for quite some time as people started to settle, we then start to see things like, I guess a comparison thing going on, people seeing other people flourishing in lockdown, learning courses, being active, making banana bread, a sense of why am I not doing that going on. Fears and anxieties around people beyond themselves. I've heard a lot of leaders being very aware of their privilege, saying, you know, it's really nice that we have a home, where we have space and we have a garden, knowing that their employees may be living in shared homes, block shares, that are not ideal to be in, that the office actually was a great place for them to be, for people who were living in less than safe or ideal environments. And so you saw a real extension of empathy and understanding, which was really kind of like, although it's unfortunate, people have gone on a real growth curve throughout this. What's happened is the companies that I've engaged with, were reaching out.
We did a workshop at Utopia about anxiety during challenging times, there were a number of requests for me to come and kind of talk, especially as we went through Mental Health Awareness Week. I've always said mental health awareness weeks and days are great, they shine a light, let's not dismiss them but it's about more than that, and we've seen it go on beyond that. There is a resilience course that I teach and the demand for that, honestly, constantly getting requests for information or to deliver that to our resilience workshop. So, companies are trying to do what they can. We do talk to people as we're delivering these workshops about longer tail solutions because we're really aware that a workshop can really bring teams together, that they're informative, and that they do so much good. But ultimately, if you're working in a business, where the culture isn't good, where people don't feel like they belong, where there are unrealistic expectations of their employees, in terms of how they should be working during that time, then things are difficult.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 28:52
What you just said really resonated with me, you know, because I've spoken, obviously, to a lot of people during this period, friends, family members, and some of these stories, they are poles apart. Some chief executives and senior leaders have been so empathetic, so supportive, you know, saying, look, we recognize that you're at home, your children are at home, we're not expecting you to be on at nine and to finish at six or whatever the hours are, do your job but also take care of yourself, take care of your family and speak to us. And on the other side, you've got organizations that just haven't realized or have almost just been at a loss about how you manage people in this situation. And they have gone in the opposite direction and tried to maintain some sort of timetable and some structure, right? We’re going to check in at this time every single day, absolutely ridiculous, as if well, you might as well make the most of not commuting each day and use that time and work even harder. I really feel that certainly from a mental health perspective that we're going to see some clear differences based on the culture and the leadership of different organizations.
Emma Mainoo 30:05
Yeah, I agree. And I'm really kind of inspired by some of the people that I've come into contact with. One company that I'm working with at the moment, they got on a call with us and they were kind of asking what they could do and they were really open. Honestly, just really came into it, saying, we're open to like hearing everything that you can kind of share with us because we want to learn and we want to go on a learning journey ourselves in terms of how we support our employees. And then, when I started to talk about what we could deliver but the time that it would require. For instance, a programme that we did yesterday, that was half a day. Mental Health First Aid is eight hours of online training that I lead, plus another eight hours, or just under coursework. I was saying, you know, it will require people to show up to every session, do all the coursework and this company is one of those companies that is actually expanding during this time due to the nature of what they are.
And when I spoke to one of the leaders on this call and explained that, he said, listen, their mental health is more important than their output and than their work and we will do whatever it takes, whoever wants to sign up to these courses, to ensure that the time is made, and that is really refreshing. You know, they've given them additional days off, and there are other companies doing great things, especially at this time. We can't talk about this time, we can't talk about the pandemic as the only difficult thing that's happened in recent months and weeks. We have a whole new wave of issues that have always been there, that are now at the forefront of black and brown people, not just only in this country but we might be working with colleagues in the US, and it's been a really difficult time.
And that's me speaking also, as a biracial woman I've been going through it too. I've really been feeling you know, we just adjust to life, not being as normal. We adjust to missing our friends and all of the stuff that's happened and that sense of worry we've got all the time, we adjust to that. And then we witness a murder that's incredibly heartbreaking for the family, as a person of color, to see that video, was really traumatic. And I know I'm not alone in saying that. And it was important that all the messages were shared and that stories were shared. And this moment came where people could talk about the things that they experienced but when that's people that look like you, your Dad, your brothers, your cousins, your family, your friends over and over again, waking up every morning to that, was heartbreaking for that period. There was a lot of anger, it's not that racism hasn't always been heartbreaking but a lot of what's happened around it was then you are in conversations with friends that you've known and loved for a lifetime, even some family members really, and you are having conversations about race and just realizing that you're on different planes.
This conversation and the whole thing has been so traumatizing and upsetting, then you go, right, okay, what can I do, because ultimately, what I do is I'm a change maker, that's the business I'm in, it is driving change. So right now, it's also about looking at the experiences of people who have not only been through a pandemic but may have lost loved ones. We know that the black community has been more impacted by coronavirus and deaths than non-Black people and we've had those anxieties. Now with this constant kind of conversation about race that is difficult being asked to solve issues, perhaps in the workplace, because you are Black, being asked to speak to racism because you are Black like the expectations are changing. So now just trying to look at solutions in those areas now as well as mental health.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 33:56
Yes, and because they are hugely related. So, it’s almost like 2020, the pandemic, has brought mental health to the fore for a number of reasons, for all the reasons you very clearly articulated before in terms of what's been going on for people.
And then overlaid on top of that, with the more recent Black Lives Matter movement, and exactly what happened to George Floyd, and the impact that that's had, the conversations that are brought out, the emotions that were potentially suppressed before that are now coming much more to the surface because discussions are being had and there's a platform for a conversation for a discussion. And people are having these moments of I never knew, or I didn't realise or how have I contributed to this as well, so that's on one side.
Then obviously those people who have a Black background think, this is how I live my life. I don't know for a long, long time, you know, it's only really recently that I've actually thought about the color of my skin and how that might have impacted my experiences because it's almost like you just take it as a given, well, this is just who I am. These are the experiences that I've had, why would I constantly reflect on whether someone else has had the same experience as me, and then I compensate for the experiences that I have to try and fit in or try and ensure that I'm not seen as any different. It almost feels like 2020 is just full of these conversations that are bringing emotions and sensitive conversations to the fore. So, it just makes me feel that the work that you're doing is just even more critical if it wasn't before.
Emma Mainoo 35:37
Thank you for saying that, it is important. And once I got to a place where I felt like every day, just beaten for a while. That's how I felt for like I say about two weeks, I was just consuming the news, surfing every channel, looking at social media constantly, wanting to talk more with my Black friends, and my family members about race. And it was just like the only conversation that I wanted to have at that time. I was also just looking internally at my privilege, being biracial, my experience of life has been different to some of my family members, and just really thinking about that. And then once I'd kind of come through this period of sadness and reflection, and let me tell you, the sadness is still there but I'm now feeling like it's about action and what I can do. I'm in a place again, of privilege, in that I work in a business where I have the opportunity to make change. I'm not a lone voice in a big corporation trying to be heard and I'm on the outside trying to get in to help that lone voice be heard.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 36:43
Emma, we're coming towards the end of our conversation now. And I'd really like to offer organizations advice. And given all the context, what we've been speaking about today, what should they work on in the area of mental health? If they were just to do something in this space, if they aren't already, what is it that you would advise them to do?
Emma Mainoo 37:04
I think the first thing is just to appreciate it. This is going to take investment and commitment. It isn't just an awareness day where we roll out some yoga mats and bring some puppies in for people to stroke and tell people to speak out because the reality is people don't often speak out. We need to look at more people kind of reaching in and telling people to speak out and creating cultures, where people feel like they can speak out and people know how to reach in, that takes time. And that requires investment and commitment from the board, not dropping the ball once things feel like they're a bit calmer, we might be over it now. These problems persist and we have not yet seen the end of the impact of coronavirus upon our workforce, the issues will continue for a time to come.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 37:47
Yes, thank you. Thank you so much, Emma. For people who are interested and might want to get ahold of you, are you active on social media? What channels can they find you on?
Emma Mainoo 37:57
So if you're interested in my work with Surviving Sundays, that's largely me sharing my personal experiences regularly @Surviving_Sundays on Instagram and you'll find me also doing all the great things that I do with Utopia @weareutopians on Instagram.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 38:16
Brilliant. Well, the link to everything that Emma and I spoke about today is going to be available on the usual show notes page at Avenirconsultingservices.com, under podcasts. Emma, it has been incredible speaking to you, thank you so much for your openness and honesty, sharing your story, sharing your insights in the space of mental health, and the incredible work that you're doing in organizations. Thank you.
Emma Mainoo 38:40
And thank you for having me on and giving me this opportunity to talk about this stuff. You know, it's great to have people like you that are kind of sharing the mic so to speak, and giving people an opportunity to be heard. So thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 38:54
All the best for everything you're doing for the rest of this year and beyond. It's such important work. Thanks, Emma. That concludes Episode Seven of the Why Care Podcast. I really hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did. I find Emma's story incredibly inspiring and also one that's full of hope, to know that someone can experience such darkness and be able to work to turn it around into something positive to help others. Do let me Emma and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and by spreading the word with your friends and family. Huge thanks once again to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and to Christiane Gross for supporting with the show notes.
