Why Care? #8: Eric Pliner - Diversity & Inclusion as a Source of Energy
“And then there is the opportunity to flip it on it’s head. Rather than seeing it as a burden or another thing to manage, inclusive leadership and driving a successful D&I agenda actually has the potential to be a huge source of energy.”
In this episode I talk to Eric Pliner, CEO of YSC Consulting, a global leadership consulting firm, which has partnered with nearly 20% of the Global Fortune 500 to help leaders achieve their future business strategies. He has written many insightful articles on leadership development and diversity and inclusion for Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Fortune and Fast Company (see links below) whilst also being a talented playwright! Eric shares his unusual career path from working in education to the performing arts and his conscious exploration into the private sector.
Together we take a deep dive into the combined impact of the pandemic and the #BlackLivesMatter movement, the challenges for leadership and advice for organisations as they face potentially a tough journey ahead. We explore what inclusive leadership means, the traits of an inclusive leader and how it all starts from a place of being a learner and listening. Eric speaks about the greatest public health crisis of our lifetimes, institutionalised racism, and he points out how connecting with each other’s humanity is more important than ever.
Whilst revealing some manifestations of exclusion he still experiences as part of a minority group himself, he brings many convincing perspectives to Diversity & Inclusion and calls for leaders not to see it as a burden, but to embrace the opportunity as source of positive energy that will benefit the whole organisation. I hope you will feel as inspired and energised by listening as I did by talking to Eric
Show Links to Eric’s Recent Articles:
A Framework for Leaders Facing Difficult Decisions - Harvard Business Review, 2020
Holding Difficult Conversations: Tips For Leaders - Forbes, 2020
Legal protections for LGBTQ people at work - Fortune, 2020
How to Get Your Diversity & Inclusion Initiative Back on Track - Fast Company 2020
Transcript
Eric Pliner
I kept saying that the pandemic was the greatest public health crisis of our lifetimes. And I now feel that although it is among the most serious public health crises of our lifetimes, it is clear that institutionalised racism remains the greatest public health crisis of our lifetimes.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, a Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Hello, and welcome to episode eight of my why care podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. This episode is a very special one as I had the pleasure of speaking to the brilliant Eric Pliner, who is inspiring in his leadership and in his vision for an inclusive future. After working his way up the organisation last year, Eric was appointed as chief executive of the global leadership consulting firm YSC. He has over 20 years of experience in leadership development, organisational culture, and strategic diversity initiatives. He's a prominent contributor with articles on leadership in Forbes Fortune, Fast Company, and Harvard Business Review. And just to add to his list of accolades, he's also a talented director and screenplay writer, you can hear how excited I get when asking him about his off-Broadway show. In our conversation, we discuss the whole spectrum of topics from institutionalised racism, workplace culture, prejudice and discrimination faced by those in the LGBTQ+ community, and much more. Eric also gives some amazing advice to other chief executives and senior leaders navigating the uncertainty of 2020 explaining what inclusive leadership practice brings. Eric is open, authentic, humble, and willing to share his vulnerability, truly role-modeling inclusive leadership himself. I hope you enjoy listening.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Eric, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the Why care podcast show. Thank you so much for joining me.
Eric Pliner
Thank you for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo
You are the chief executive of YSC, a company that I know very, very well, having partnered with and worked with, in all the brilliant things that you do, but maybe you can tell us a little bit more about the work at YSC and how you became the Chief Exec.
Eric Pliner
Sure. Thank you. So, YSC consulting is a leadership strategy consultancy. We've been around 30 years. Where folks know us, they're typically familiar with the organisation because of our expertise and experience in executive assessment and executive coaching. But when we describe ourselves as leadership strategists, what we're talking about are the individual leadership styles, the dynamics and interactions, and the organisational cultures that lead to successful achievement of a strategic change agenda. How do you implement your desired strategic change through people, whether it's individuals, teams, or the total culture, and so I joined YSC 10 years ago, it was my first job in the private sector. I'd spent my entire career in city government, state government, and federal government, and also working for non-profit community-based organisations. But at some point, along the way, I felt that in my passion for driving change, I had really written off the private sector as an opportunity to drive meaningful and large-scale, impactful change in the world. And I felt that that was a missed opportunity. I'd earned undergraduate degrees in American Studies, but also in Peace and Justice Studies. In some ways, coming from a movement background meant that I didn't look with the same degree of curiosity at the private sector as I had at the non-profit and public sectors. So, I went back to school and earned an MBA and in doing so saw lots of opportunities to get involved in the private sector, I was recruited by YSC but actually didn't get an interview the first time I applied. And then, nine months later, I headhunted for YSC, ironically enough, and I said, there was no way I wanted to be a consultant and that it was the worst job in the world. 10 years later, I am the chief executive.
Nadia Nagamootoo
That's a brilliant story. So, I'm interested in that ‘there's no way I'm going to be a consultant’ when you've worked so long in the third sector, and for charities and the public sector. Where's the trade-off? Do you see it then when you're moving into the private sector?
Eric Pliner
I didn't experience a trade-off in values, I didn't experience a trade-off in desire for impact. What I found was a lot of people who had pursued paths that they came to in really wildly different ways, which was not so different from my experience in government or in the charitable sector, I found that wherever people are, everybody wants their job to have meaning. In fact, it's part of what drew me to YSC, after I got a call from a recruiter, it was the organization's history of working in the space of meaning and purpose. And that drive for meaning is no different among people in the private sector than it is in the non-profit and government sectors. What I found though was that; what could the private sector learn from the successes of independent organisations, non-profit and charitable organisations, and from government. I found a real space of passion as a consultant in helping to bring some of what I'd learned in those spaces to private sector leaders and organisations.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Incredible, so 2020, a series of challenges. And as a chief executive of a global organisation, I can only imagine some sleepless nights, or at least some stressful moments, in trying to figure out a path and lots of difficult decisions that you've no doubt been faced with just as many chief executives around the world. And I did read a recent Forbes article that you wrote, talking about creating space for legitimate engagement. And I was wondering if you wouldn't mind expanding a little bit on that and how you've applied it during the pandemic.
Eric Pliner
It's been absolutely essential, I think, for all leaders, chief executives, and otherwise, at every level of organisations, to think through what our plans look like, and what do we have to achieve. What were we on track to achieve? What do we need to do differently, in light of a wildly different collective context? And with that, in mind, plans are a great place to start. But they can often miss the humanity that is very much at the centre, not only of the stacked crises that we're facing, but of employee engagement, customer engagement, and just living our daily lives. And so, while the planning and strategizing have been essential, and I don't know a leader who hasn't had to do it in some way. Taking that and translating it from what's on paper, to the real lived experiences of all of us, who are spending time staring at computer screens and cameras or spending time behind masks and behind plastic shields. Spending time engaging with fewer people in our day-to-day, in a personal way, means that the opportunity, and really the imperative for legitimate engagement, for connecting with each other's humanity is more essential than ever.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Can you give examples? How have you done that during this really difficult year?
Eric Pliner
Well, I think, frankly, pretty poorly in the beginning. I mean, I think I was really focused, partly because of my role in making sure that our business was able to stay afloat. How do we make sure that we stay healthy, that we can service our clients in the way that we need to, that we care for our employees, and that we do as much as we can to stay on track for as many of our different stakeholders as possible? But it was easy to lose aspects of my own humanity and my colleague’s humanity in that. And I think the way that I've done it is by listening to our teams around the world by understanding what people’s day-to-day lives are like right now. We have no sense of each other beyond the small snippet of the backdrops that we can see on our video camera screen. And so really listening to what everybody's day-to-day lives are like and sharing a bit about my own. As you know, I'm a dad of three small kids, my husband and I are both working full-time from home, and our kids were out of school since last March. We were hardly alone in any of that, figuring out and talking openly about what my challenges and my energizers have been, and getting the same from the people around me as a part of my regular day-to-day work is the way that I began to re-engage legitimately with our teams and to allow them to do that.
Nadia Nagamootoo
That totally resonates with me. Particularly I work with people in different parts of the world, and often the conversation starts with a question around what's the current state of play around COVID for you where you're living at the moment. Even in the UK, it varies depending on where you're living in the country in terms of what restrictions you're under, and how badly the virus is spreading. And so, everyone's under very different personal circumstances, and it can make it incredibly challenging. I know through your work, particularly in the States, but across globally, I see that a lot of the work centres around supporting your clients with diversity and inclusion programmes and facilitated workshops. And I'm just interested in what you've noticed in terms of the need, from clients and from organisations around the diversity and inclusion work that you do, how has it shifted due to COVID?
Eric Pliner
The first thing is that a lot of organisations, again, coming from a place of attempting to ensure the longevity and sustainability of their cultures and of their firms more generally made decisions in the immediate face of the pandemic, that they didn't filter through the lens of diversity and inclusion. What do I mean by that? We work with very large organisations around the world, many of whom made the determination that they would need to lay off employees in service of sustaining their total businesses, regardless of whether that was right or wrong for them. That was the choice that many of them made, but few, if any of them sat down and said what is the impact the disproportionate impact on women on black, Asian, and minority ethnic employees, on LGBTQ employees, and on employees who are veterans of the military service or people of faith? Why does that matter? Because many organisations over the past few years have come out and made explicit their ostensible commitment to diversity and inclusion. But when they eliminated roles that were largely at the lower hierarchical levels of organisations, without recognising that those levels of the organizations have disproportionately sized populations, in particular, of women and black, Asian, and minority ethnic employees.
They were actually undoing or undermining some of their own D and I agendas, with actions that were designed to theoretically save the organisation more generally. It's a huge challenge because within a matter of weeks, after the pandemic caused the shutdown in many of the largest markets in the world, we also face the additional stacked crisis of murders of black Americans by police. And this is not new. This has been going on for a long time but there was increased attention to the movement for black lives following the murders of Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd, and Breonna Taylor in May. That meant that organisations suddenly said, hang on, we actually have to look with greater scrutiny, greater accountability, and greater criticality at our D and I agendas, but in doing so, they may have missed the intersection of these stacked crises. The fact that what they were doing to address one crisis was actually worsening another at the same time.
Nadia Nagamootoo
If Black Lives Matter, the movement and the killing of those individuals in the states hadn't happened. Do you think the attention on diversity and inclusion would have been as such as it is now, then? Do you think it could have fallen off on the radar?
Eric Pliner
I don’t think so. I think it might have been shaped differently. But we have to recognise that with one of the most serious public health crises of our lifetimes happening right now. The disproportionate impact on people of colour in the US and of black, Asian, and minority ethnic people around the world is evidence that we have problems with regard to how we frame and address inclusion, diversity, anti-bias, and anti-racism that are literally life and death problems. While police killings have certainly brought greater attention to aspects of the urgency, of addressing the violence committed against people of colour, they are hardly the only issue that has brought that to light this year. One of the things that I’ve found important, and that I’ve learned early in the pandemic was that I kept saying that the pandemic was the greatest public health crisis of our lifetimes. And I now feel that although it is among the most serious public health crises of our lifetimes, it is clear that institutionalised racism remains the greatest public health crisis of our lifetimes.
Nadia Nagamootoo
I hear that and I can see that and it's the first time actually that I'm thinking of institutional racism as a public health crisis. That’s an interesting way to frame what we're talking about. Is it a coincidence that the George Floyd killings and the other killings you've mentioned that took place in May this year, that they happened to be in the same year as the global pandemic, or is there a connection between the two?
Eric Pliner
I think that the way in which many of us have responded to George Floyd's murder, to Breonna Taylor's murder, to Ahmaud Arbours’ murder, to express bias against Christian Cooper, a black man walking through Central Park in New York City, birdwatching. All of these occurred or at least received renewed attention within a relatively small period of time. I think the response has been heightened during the time of the COVID pandemic, in part because it reflects yet another way that our institutions have failed black people, African people, African American people, and Caribbean people in the US and around the world. These are hardly sadly isolated incidents, there are more than 1900 documented police killings of black people in the US alone in recent years. And so, I think that the nature of the response has been heightened, in part because of the collected feeling that our institutions are failing us and in particular, are failing black people.
Nadia Nagamootoo
The things that happened in May were very much within the US. And of course, it spiraled into a global movement. So, I'm UK based, and a lot of people in the UK, the conversations that I'm having is, yes, I hear that and it's absolutely unfair, and we need to address it. But that's what happens in the States, it doesn't happen here. So, some of the struggles that we have in the UK is actually bringing it back to British history and recognising that actually, no, this isn't American history, that's playing out. Britain also has a history of slavery, of black Africans coming over and being treated as second-class citizens, if not worse. So, I'm interested in your take on British companies, which might be facing more reticence, reluctance, and defensiveness around this issue. There's a lot going on in British organisations now, where chief executives are a bit stuck, or senior leaders are a bit stuck. How do we address this? How do we overcome the barriers to facing the UK reality?
Eric Pliner
I think there's an opportunity for all of us, no matter where we are in the world, to take a hard look at our own histories, at how we got to the moments that we're in, at what has driven our successes, what constitutes the foundation of our societies, and to listen carefully to black leaders and other leaders of colour within our localities or geographies or within our spheres of influence, to understand what their experiences are, of those institutions and of those societal foundations. The fact is that many of the Fortune 100 have recently been taking a hard look at the aspects of their own performance that have been informed by the roots of slavery. Which of the UK banks have had relationships that go back to the time of the kidnapping, torture, and enslavement of African people and how has that laid the foundation for their performance today? Those are really tough questions. But I think only by taking an honest look at our history and listening carefully to black leaders to other leaders of colour to understand our relationships with different parts of the world. Can we then begin to think about how we make genuine, authentic, and sustained reparations for the damage that many of our institutions and organisations have been party to historically? That's not easy, but it's partly why we have to begin doing the work about the personal and interpersonal aspects of our bias, as a way of setting ourselves up to successfully address the structural, institutional, and societal aspects of our interpersonal bias as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo
As you’re talking, I'm thinking, gosh, it's a lot for leaders and for organisations to process, to get their heads around, and to acknowledge before they even start addressing and doing something. I'm interested because you mentioned a few times about black leaders and of course, you're a white male chief executive. You're not in the minority. Obviously, there are many white male chief executives of global companies. So, I've spoken to many of my friends who are consultants at YSC, and I understand that your message following George Floyd's death and the Black Lives Matter movement was incredibly authentic and incredibly heartfelt. I'm curious as a white male chief executive, how do you find that place as a leader to be able to share in that way, but recognise that you don't have that lived experience of what some people have?
Eric Pliner
In fairness, and in the interest of full disclosure, I don't think my initial message to our organisation and on behalf of our organisation was as authentic or heartfelt as what you described Nadia. I think that I was very concerned initially, with saying the right thing and I got some feedback from key members of our staff, some directly and some indirectly, that it was insufficient. I really appreciated that, and it was hard to hear because I am always thinking about all of the different stakeholders whose needs I have to manage, and their desires are often not aligned. But I felt quite strongly that it was very important to me to say what I really thought, and I didn't say that initially. And so, when I went back to our business the second time and shared what I really thought, which was different from what I had said quite formally the first time. I think the thing that was most important was that I shared what I have learned, what I am still learning, what I hope to continue learning, and what I expect our organisation to learn. I think this is an aspect of many of our workplace cultures and many of our societies more generally, which is that we want to show our competence, our knowledge, and our expertise. And so, when you ask how am I able to speak in a heartfelt way without having had that lived experience? I think that's right, I couldn't speak from a place of lived experience.
I instead had to speak from a place of positioning myself as without competence, without authority, but as a learner, as someone who has had my own experiences of oppression because of aspects of my identity as an LGBTQ person, or as a Jew in a largely non-Jewish community, and many non-Jewish communities, but that I don't suggest that those experiences are in any way analogous to experiences of racism or sexism. What I think is analogous is what it feels like to recognise that some aspect of your identity is being diminished, demeaned, punished, or violated. And that if I draw on the pain that I have felt in those moments, and use that to position myself as a learner, not to say, ‘Oh, I know what that feels like, because I've experienced this’, centering myself, but instead to say, I know that in those moments, I wanted someone to listen to me, then what I need to do right now is listen to other people and learn. I think I was able to say, honestly, authentically, and in a heartfelt way, this is what I've learned, this is what I haven't learned, and this is what I need us to learn together. This is why I feel so strongly about these particular things. I didn't start there, though. And my message to other chief executives, based on what I got wrong, and what I thought I needed to do to fix that is to start from a place of being the learner, no matter who you are, as a chief executive, no matter what your identities are, you sit in a position of power. And so how do you listen? And how do you learn?
Nadia Nagamootoo
Yes, as part of your identity, you have a very clear experience that you live every day being in a non-dominant group. Yeah, you've spoken about two particular identities there in terms of the LGBTQ+ community and also being Jewish. There are many chief executives who might struggle if they were to think about which groups they tend to fall dominant versus non-dominant in terms of majority groups. Actually, they might fall under the dominant group in the majority of their identities. So, it did make me wonder how they speak from a place of authenticity. But I think I understand now what you were saying in terms of being that learner and being open and curious, and it is the traits of an inclusive leader essentially, isn't it?
Eric Pliner
Indeed, we have done quite a bit of research in this space, and we have identified essentially three traits of any leader that their employees are likely to describe as inclusive. And the first is curiosity. How do you show interest in positioning yourself as a learner, in listening, in developing yourself, but in also engaging meaningfully with other people's experiences? The second one is connection. How do you build an authentic real relationship that is mutual and bidirectional, and multi-directional, with the people around you? And the third perhaps, least surprising, but often hardest for many leaders is courage. How do you speak up when you see injustice? How do you identify ways to use your power to be able to advocate for others? How do you say the things that often go unsaid, the soundtrack that runs in your head and maybe in others? How do you position your organisation to stand up for what you believe is right? Those are big challenges for people. But there are really only three things. And there are three things that any leader, regardless of our identities, can demonstrate curiosity, connection, and courage.
Nadia Nagamootoo
I love that it's very simple. It resonates with me with everything that I've read, and also observed and experienced within organisations from my work. Just as we've been talking about your identity of being an LGBTQ+ person in that community. And you have mentioned in passing around some of the painful experiences that you've had during your career and probably outside of work, too, because of that part of you and your identity. From a career perspective, do you feel that you've faced prejudice or discrimination, or certain barriers? How have you overcome those?
Eric Pliner
I think that my whiteness and my maleness and the fact that I am a cisgender individual, that my gender identity and my sex align, mean that those aspects of my identity typically override how people perceive other aspects of my identity. I'm still a white man. And the fact is, I'm a white man who is over six feet tall, and I'm an American, and I recognise that all of those factors have contributed to tremendous advantage in my career path and to tremendous opportunities that are not afforded equally to everyone. And so, while I do think there are aspects of my career that on a regular basis are still affected by how people perceive me because of my sexual orientation, because of my religious faith, because of my family structure, and many other marginalised aspects of my identity. I do believe that the power of whiteness and maleness often override that for people in a way that I do not deny. And my experiences of discrimination of bias, of quite painful ways of interacting with people have not gone away. And as recently as four days ago, I had an interaction with a critical stakeholder, who indicated that on a video call, the material hanging in the background of my video was completely inappropriate for their audience. I was really surprised by that; it was a diversity and inclusion video, and the content was all about the LGBTQ organisations that I had worked with. It was just a wall hanging in my office. But the idea that just getting on video in my own home, to take down content that reflects my identity as a gay man, is surprising to me. And yet, it is an important reminder that there's still a lot of work for us to do in addressing discrimination, bias, and negative interactions of all kinds related to our identities.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Wow, that's shocking. I'm trying to get my head around what that particular person had asked you to do.
Eric Pliner
At a time, Nadia, when so many LGBTQ+ people in the world continue to experience physical violence, homelessness, and disproportionate substance abuse, I am also a parent of a transgender daughter. I certainly look at the challenges that nonbinary people face in attaining employment or retaining employment, the notion of somebody objecting to something hanging on the wall is quite small. And at the same time, again, the intensity of the feeling in that moment is still significant.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Absolutely, it is more than just a simple request to take down a hanging, isn't it? It's what sits behind that. And so, for organisations, for those who are listening to create a more inclusive workplace for transgender, for LGBTQ+ people, I think this is a topic that gets spoken about less. We tend to focus a lot on gender and ethnicity, disability, and mental health now has also really been a huge focus. I work in this field of inclusion and diversity, and I hear less about what organisations are doing to better support people in the LGBTQ+ community. Why is that? And what are you hoping for organisations to do in this
space?
Eric Pliner
Again, my counsel is probably not wholly different from what I referenced before in the context of what leaders can do to meaningfully address bias of all kinds. And that is by listening to the employees in their organisations who hold the identities that they want to create support and engagement for. And so that means if you have openly lesbian, bisexual, transgender, gay, queer questioning, intersex, or asexual people in your communities? What are they saying that they want to see more of? Certainly, there are well-documented recommendations of things like how do you ensure equality and benefits that are provided to LGBTQ people in their families. There are also things about how we create visibility. How do we ensure that we're addressing our own interpersonal biases, as well as our structural and systemic biases? How do you do things that ensure that your facilities are accessible to everyone so that people can go to the bathroom during the workday? How do you ensure that you are creating opportunities to connect with community organisations that are meaningful to your employees? How do you do things that make it clear and that display your core identities that are measured in the same way that the appropriateness of any core identities is measured? In a way that is not only acceptable but encouraged as a way for people to bring their whole selves to work? And finally, how do we not separate out LGBTQ identity as something that is exclusive of identity as a woman, as a person of colour, as a person living with disabilities, or living with chronic illness remember that when we talk about race in the workplace, we are also talking about LGBTQ people. When we talk about gender in the workplace, we are also talking about LGBTQ people, that the intersection of our identities, as Kimberly Crenshaw, once coined and defined for us for a long time, is one of the most important spaces that we can ensure that people are their whole selves, and not feeling that they have to segment off parts of their identity to be able to be heard.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Yes, we like to group people, it makes our lives a lot easier to put people into boxes, but they have specific or individual needs based on not just one aspect of their identity, but everything that makes up who they are, essentially. And that complexity, I think, can be overwhelming to organisations, how do we ensure that everyone for their uniqueness that they bring is treated in a way that they feel included and supported and valued? It is a challenge and one that no doubt we will continue to work out for many years and decades to come. I must admit, I did Google stalk you quite a bit. And I know that you've had many successes prior to YSC, you had some huge achievements in the arts and theatre scene. And I can't speak to you without addressing that and asking you to tell us a little bit more about your Broadway show, and particularly interested in how that experience and how your past influences have shaped you as the leader you are today.
Eric Pliner
Thank you for sharing that, Nadia. In fairness, it wasn't a Broadway show, it was off-Broadway. But I do appreciate the acknowledgment. I've worked with a writing partner by the name of Amy Rhodes for more than 20 years on and off. And she and I are always drawn together by the desire to tell stories that reflect aspects of our own experiences and of the communities that we're both parts of. And so, our most commercially successful partnership was on a show that you referenced that ran in the very late 90s and early 2000s, first in Boston, and then had a residency in New York. And it was a lot of fun, and still, something we look back on fondly. We have both independently had a vibrant artistic career since and then now we've come back together. And in our spare time, we've developed television shows now that reflect similar themes, but a very different medium for us. You asked about how that's shaped leadership, though, and I'll tell you rarely does a day go by that I don't think about what I learned and still learn from the arts as an input into my leadership. So, the very first thing is that, as a young person, I did a bit of acting here and there, I never really enjoyed acting, but I loved being a writer and loved being a director. And one of the first things that you learn as a theatre director, even when you think you have a clear vision in your head, is that unless you have engaged others in your vision, and that they are bought in, and that they have a combination of real freedom and independence to shape what they see in line with the vision that you have painted for them, your vision will disappear.
And what I mean by that is on opening night, the director is not on the stage telling people what to do, the actors are going to do what they want. And so, you’ve either engaged them in your vision, and given them the combination of support freedom, and creativity to be able to enact their version of that vision, or they just do what they want anyway. And so, leadership is exactly the same. You have to engage people in a vision, you have to give them the freedom, the support, and the creativity to find their own spin on it and they have to believe in it so that when you're not on the stage with them, they can still live up to that in a way that they feel proud of and that hopefully aligned to what you imagine. I also learned smaller things like when the photographers come in to do the press photos, everybody wants to be in the photo. Yeah, it's a metaphor that runs through my head all the time. One time I had an actor who was ill on the day that the press photos were being taken, and he was just crushed that his pictures didn’t run on the posters and in the paper. And I think that's true for everyone. Everybody wants to be in the photo, we all want recognition of our achievements, our contributions, and of what matters to us. My own executive coach who has actually since joined the YSC organisation, always encouraged me to write down what I learned, and what I remember from my artistic career, and to shape those lessons in my leadership with intent, rather than just by default. And so, I tried to do that pretty frequently.
Nadia Nagamootoo
I love it. And it's very clear that you do that because there's so much clarity in the connection between what you've gained from the arts and theatre scene and what you continue to gain and how you bring it into your working life. I would love to continue chatting for ages, actually, I could talk to you forever. I love everything that you've brought to the conversation and how you facilitated my own thinking in the time that we're living in, at the moment, and in the space of diversity and inclusion. I'm wondering whether as we come to the end of our conversation, whether for those leaders, and chief executives, who are listening to this podcast, and who are trying to navigate this uncertainty in the economy and market looking forward to 2021 and beyond potentially feeling overwhelmed, feeling no doubt financial pressure and the weight on their shoulders to ensure that people's livelihoods continue. What advice can you offer with regards to balancing all that I've just described with the amount of resource, time, and energy that they should be placed on diversity and inclusion? And why?
Eric Pliner
It's a great question. I have a couple of thoughts, Nadia. The first is that, without being inclusive leaders, we are not leaders. I don't say that to be overly simplistic about it. But either we are leading inclusively and learning every single day how we can lead more inclusively. Or we are only leading for a subset of our total population? I don't think that the best leaders want to make the choice to only lead for some of their people. I think they want to lead on behalf of all of their people, all of their stakeholders, all of their customers, and all of their employees. And that means making a choice to work every day at being a more inclusive leader. I hear what you say about potentially feeling overwhelming and burdensome, and I certainly know what it feels like from our very small firm, to feel the burden of what senior leaders are grappling with right now. I would say that there are a couple of ways to address that. The first is to remember that inclusive leadership work is fundamentally collaborative work. It's about how we connect with each other; no leader has to do it on their own. There are things we can do by ourselves, but we don't have to do the work or bear the burden of the ambition of the agenda alone.
Then I think there's the opportunity to flip it on its head rather than seeing it as a burden or another thing to manage, it is important to remember that inclusive leadership and driving a meaningful and successful D and I agenda actually has the potential to be a huge source of energy. It will be energising for your employees, it will be energising for your customers, it will be energising for people that engage as candidates with your organisation, and it has the potential to be energising for you. Why? This is because you get to hear more perspectives, you get to see greater variety in problem-solving and experiences of the world, and in ways of engaging with complexity. You get to feel a greater connection to other people, and you get to see people be their full selves in ways that bring energy rather than take away energy. The combination of all of those things means that not only can you not set the D and I agenda to the side, or put it off until later, but actually you shouldn't because there is so much for you and for everyone that's a part of your organisational community in taking it to face on right now.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Wow. Well, you've sold it to me, I didn't need to sell it. But nevertheless, I'm with you. So brilliantly put in terms of all of the benefits personally that leaders would get but also every single person that you touch in your organisation. Thank you so much, Eric, for your time today. I've just loved speaking to you, for those people who are interested who might want to get hold of you and hear more about your thoughts that you have active on social media, what channels could they find you on?
Eric Pliner
Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn, Eric Pliner, Twitter, and Eric A Pliner. That's my middle initial. And on Facebook, you can also find me@www.ysc.com at Young Samuel chambers, our firm's website where you'll see not just my thinking, but the brilliant thinking of many of my outstanding and extraordinary colleagues as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Thank you, Eric. Everything that Eric and I spoke about today is going to be available on the show notes page, as usual, which is going to be on the Avenir consulting services.com website under podcasts. Eric, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me and for sharing your story, your personal journey, and your insights into everything that's happened in 2020, and going forward. I just love speaking to you. Thank you for your time.
Eric Pliner
Thank you for having me, Nadia. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Nadia Nagamootoo
That concludes episode eight of the Why care podcast. I really hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did. I found Eric's personal leadership journey and his strong values to be an authentic learner to be so inspiring. Do let Eric and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with friends and family. Huge thanks once again to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Christiane Gross for supporting with the show notes.
