Why Care? Special Episode: Dr. Ranj - Being Your Best Self
“I grew up in a working class, you know, immigrant family background….I didn't grow up with very much. So, it certainly wasn't existing in an environment where I could just do or have whatever I wanted. And there was certainly not that comfort, that everything was always going to be fine and it was always going to be straightforward. I had to work for everything. My parents had to (a lot of first generation immigrant families know this), you know, we have to work for absolutely everything. I had to work for absolutely everything and that has carried on - nothing has been given to me; I have not been born into or inherited anything. I have had to work. And that is where my work ethic comes from is that it's okay to have that - that's absolutely fine. It actually gives me a sense of valuing everything I do and have. And I've just carried that sort of spirit and that mindset through that. If I want to do something, I'm gonna have to make it happen.”
In this special celebrity episode of Why Care? I am joined by the truly inspiring, Dr. Ranj, to delve deeper into what drives him, his passion for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI), and his perspective on how to break society’s confines of masculinity. Dr. Ranj shares many personal life experiences as we discuss his cultural upbringing, mindset, sexuality, identity, and journey to being authentically 100% who he is. We also explore his adventurous career, his advocacy for the LGBTQ+ community, promotion of diverse and inclusive education, and one of his many books aimed at boys: How to Be a Boy and Do It Your Own Way.
Dr Ranj’s dedication to DEI is reflected throughout his personal journey, influential career, and advocacy work. There are so many things he has tried his hand at and proven he can successfully do! He is an NHS doctor, BAFTA award-winning TV presenter, best-selling author, advocate for inclusion, keynote speaker, radio host, and columnist. Dr. Ranj initially qualified as a doctor in 2007, before kick-starting his media career in 2012 as a CBeebies presenter. Since then, he elevated his public profile by gracing numerous TV shows and documentaries, including Strictly Come Dancing in 2018, and previously, ITV’s This Morning. Dr Ranj is the host of his own medical advice show called 'Dr Ranj: ON Call' and has written numerous children’s educational books. He is also an advocate for LGBTQ+ rights, and inclusive education and offers expert advice on a range of physical and mental health issues.
During the episode, Dr. Ranj reveals more about his cultural background and influences, mindset, motivations, and his proactive approach to life. He emphasises the importance of seizing the moment, taking risks, and embracing challenges, which have all helped define his personal journey. He shares some compelling experiences which illustrate his resilience, and commitment to personal growth, such as learning to swim in just one week for BBC Children in Need. He hopes achievements like this can inspire others to take some initiative, overcome internal challenges, and engage in personal growth.
Dr. Ranj elaborates more about his Indian heritage, which had a decisive influence on his work ethic and determination to succeed. He shares how he experienced a lack of emotional support growing up, and how he uses his experiences to promote inclusive education, diversity, and emotional connection. Dr. Ranj discusses other influences in his life, such as his teachers and school experience that had a transformative effect. He also shares some candid personal experiences, such as his journey of self-discovery, and navigating his sexual identity, that allowed him to journey towards becoming his authentic self. He moves on to discuss how there has been a gradual shift towards fostering diversity and inclusion, both in society and the media, and opens up about his time on Strictly Come Dancing. Dr. Ranj then shares more about his motivations for writing his books aimed at young boys, and how he strives to challenge the confines of masculinity in society.
Some themes from our discussion:
- Cultural Influences - Dr. Ranj reflects on the impact of his cultural background, highlighting how his parents' upbringing in rural India shaped their parenting style. Growing up in a working-class, immigrant family inspired his strong work ethic and determined mindset, pushing him to overcome challenges. Interestingly, he was so determined to stop attending Sunday Punjabi school, he made a deal with his parents and took his Punjabi GCSE exam at just 8 years old. Amazingy, he passed with flying colours!
- Transformative Tools - Despite being a high achiever in adulthood, Dr Ranj reveals more about his academic challenges and how he felt disengaged from school. Despite his initial self-doubt, he was fortunate to have some inspiring role models who changed his path and encouraged him to pursue a medical career. Being a minority in a predominantly white, middle-class school also motivated him to view education as a transformative tool, an 'exit strategy,' and empowered him to take control of his destiny.
- Navigating Identity - Dr. Ranj candidly shares his journey to embrace his authentic self, particularly his sexual identity. He was initially influenced by cultural and societal expectations, so believed conformity to traditional cis-hetero norms by marrying a woman would lead to happiness. However, after a failed marriage and counselling, he went through a transformative process, leading him to unlearn these societal expectations and embrace his authentic identity at the age of 30. He identifies as queer and emphasises how sexual identity isn’t just binary, it can be nuanced and complicated. Dr. Ranj is now an advocate for LGBTQ+ acceptance, aiming to inspire courage and openness, especially in communities struggling with diverse identities, to help foster more inclusion in society.
- A Societal Shift - Dr. Ranj shares his ‘coming out’ story and how emotional and challenging it was, especially due to the traditional societal norms. However, the process empowered him, and he notices how there has been a gradual, positive societal shift towards the LGBTQ+ community. He ensures he leverages his authority as a male medical professional to challenge stereotypes.. He advocates how, on a broader scale, individuals should be seen beyond their sexuality and highlights the transformative value of breaking free from societal norms.
- Diversity in The Media - Dr. Ranj stresses the importance of challenging stigmas on sexuality and being queer, especially while working with children on TV. He demonstrates that being gay is just one aspect of an identity, not a definitive factor, and shouldn’t be a barrier. He also highlights the importance of showcasing a diverse range of identities in the media and inspiring others to journey towards self-discovery and authenticity. He draws some parallels between his coming out journey and the introduction of same-sex dance pairings on Strictly Come Dancing. As a contestant in 2018, although he had requested to be paired with a man, the move was seen as risky. However, thankfully, it has now been proved to strengthened rather than hinder the show.
- Challenging Perceptions of Masculinity - Dr. Ranj reveals the unexpected journey that led him to write his books as well as the challenges he faced. He discloses how he was inspired to put pen to paper to counter the harmful rhetoric targeting men and boys, especially online. He hopes to inspire compassion, kindness, and inclusion, and to encourage people to explore their unique identity. To illustrate this, he incorporates diverse voices, including people of colour and queer people, to challenge societal perceptions of masculinity. He strives to encourage boys and their parents to embrace an inclusive, diverse, and fluid expression of masculinity.
Links:
Dr Ranj can be found on:
For more information about Dr. Ranj, visit: https://www.hachette.co.uk/contributor/ranj-singh/
http://www.talent4media.com/talent/dr-ranj-singh/
Purchase your copy of my book: Beyond Discomfort: Why inclusive leadership is so hard (and what you can do about it)
Transcript
Dr. Ranj 00:00
I left university, started my first job, I fell in love with somebody who I was working with, we got married, and unfortunately that didn't work out, but it was the process of that breaking down. I went through counselling at that point because I needed to just make sense of what was happening, because in my head, I had done everything right, but it didn't work. So if I've put the work in, I've done everything I'm supposed to be doing, and to all intents and purposes, it was what it was supposed to be, why didn't it work? And it's only then that I think in counselling I really confronted the fact that I wasn't being 100% me. I wasn't being authentically who I was. And I realised if I was going to be truly happy, I was going to have to be truly me. And that took a long process of unlearning everything that I'd learned growing up and believed to relearning who I was and what it meant to be. And at that point, that was when I was 30, I came out as it were.
Nadia Nagamootoo 1:05
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported, but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone.
I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello and welcome to a very special episode of Why Care? My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. That's right, this is a Season 4 extra for you and a real treat to speak all things diversity, equity and inclusion with the incredible and truly inspiring Dr. Ranj Singh. Dr. Ranj is an NHS clinician specialising in the well-being of young people and is most well known as a TV personality and expert in health and well-being. He co-created and hosted BAFTA award-winning CBB series Get Well Soon, is the resident doctor of BBC One's leading daytime series Morning Live, co-presenter of ITV's primetime series Save Money, Good Health and was previously a regular medical expert on This Morning. Those of you who are Strictly Come Dancing fans will know him from the 2018 series when he swapped his scrubs for sequins, partnering with Jeanette Manrara. He's also a Sunday Times best-selling author having written three hugely successful books including How to Be a Boy and Do It Your Own Way. In addition, he has three very successful picture books, A Superhero Like You, A Superhero Like Mine and A Super Family Like Ours.
A few months ago he also started his own radio show on the BBC Asian Network where he shares motivational tips, health and life advice every Monday evening. In this episode we talk about Ranj's philosophy and mindset in life which has shaped his decisions, achievements and who he is today. He shares the challenges of being first generation UK born, growing up in a Sikh South Asian community and having to work that bit harder to push past societal expectations and get what he wanted out of life. He talks about his painful experience of truly understanding who he was and what he strives for when it comes to overcoming societal stigma around the LGBTQ plus community. We discuss why he decided to write books aimed at boys, delving deeply into how society views masculinity and Ranj's perspective on how we can support all children to break free of these shackles. And of course we talk about Strictly and how it's helping to shape society's acceptance of difference.
I have been a huge fan of Dr Ranj for many years and it's fair to say that I love him a little bit more now. You'll understand why once you've listened. Enjoy.
Nadia Nagamootoo 4.54
I would like to extend a huge welcome to you Ranj for joining me on Why Care. I can't tell you how excited I am to have you on the show and to speak to you today.
Dr. Ranj 5:07
Oh, thank you for having me. It was lovely bumping into each other at the Diversity Awards where we had this whole conversation about what you do and obviously I had to jump on with it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 5:16
Well, I so appreciate it. It is an absolute honour that you've generously offered your time to talk to me about all things diversity, equity and inclusion. So thank you. So clearly I did my due diligence on you in thinking about what can I chat to Ranj about and goodness, when you Google Dr Ranj, like that's what I put into Google.
Dr. Ranj 5:38
I wouldn't recommend it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 5:41
I can't actually believe how much you've been involved in. Clearly from a professional career background, you're a medical doctor and we all know that. And we also know, well certainly those who have kids or have seen you on many things, you're a children's mainstream TV presenter as well, initially children's then mainstream radio presenter. I have to congratulate you on kicking off 2024.
Dr. Ranj 6:06
Thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:06
I listen to your shows, radio presenter, speaker, author and I have some of your books. My daughter, knowing you from Strictly Come Dancing, obviously as a contestant several years ago, you're on the Christmas special, The British Sewing Bee, which actually I'm sorry to say I didn't catch, but I will be watching when I can get the rerun. Quiz shows, you've done loads, loads. It's phenomenal. So me as a psychologist, I'm curious, what does your career story tell us about you?
Dr. Ranj 06:39
I would like to think that it is an example of seizing every opportunity that comes your way and trying to make the most of it. I firmly believe that, you know, life isn't a dress rehearsal. It is the real show. And sometimes if you're lucky enough, opportunities come along several times, but I'm not one of those people. So, and I certainly wouldn't want to trust that process that it's going to come back. So I've been very much trying to make the most of everything that I can in any way I can. Obviously that requires a lot of energy and time. So I have to be sensible from that perspective, but I just want to make the most of things because I, one thing that my career, the pandemic has taught us is that we don't know what's around the corner. So I wouldn't want to get to that end point, whatever that might be, and look back and think, oh, I wish I'd given that a go.
So that's how I tend to live my life or my career as it were. It's very much a case of give it a go and see what happens. If it works, fantastic. If it doesn't, use it as a learning experience and just trying to, amongst all of that, chase as much joy as I can because that's what drives me. That's what thrives me is finding those moments of joy, no matter how small or how big, but just finding that sense of fulfilment and happiness. And yeah, that's kind of, I hope people see that in what I do is that I'm just trying to do better and be better and experience better.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:10
And yes, for me, for sure, I can't speak obviously for everyone else, but it absolutely comes across in a really inspiring way where it takes courage to be able to take those opportunities and go, oh my goodness, I don't know how to dance. I'm going to do it on live TV and all of that. And recently, and this really resonated with me because I learned to swim. I was so scared of the water as a young child and I didn't have a particularly nice teacher and she really humiliated me in front of my classmates and it put me off. And it wasn't until my eldest daughter was like five and she was swimming like a fish. And I was like, okay, do you know what? I don't want my daughter to look at me and go, oh, why is mummy not in the water? And I'd be like, oh, like I can't swim. I want to show her that actually you can continue learning no matter what your age. And yes, I can't swim right now, but if I apply myself, I will be able to swim. And I just went for lessons. And six months later I was swimming. You, on the other hand, didn't do it in six months. How did you learn to swim, Ranj?
Dr. Ranj 09:16
No. So I set myself a challenge for BBC Children in Need. And in 2023, the theme was challenging yourself, learning something new. And I challenged myself to learn how to swim in a week. And bearing in mind, I knew I wasn't going to be able to do a full, you know, few lengths or whatever it was, but I just wanted to do enough to start that process off and being realistic about it and did it for charity. So we did. I learned pretty much the basics in a week. And then I had to swim live on TV. It wasn't perfect. I haven't got the hang of breathing down just yet, but I managed to swim almost 20 metres, which for me was a big achievement and hopefully inspired others to just think, do you know what? I've been thinking about this for my entire life. Why don't I just do it? Why don't I get over that little internal hurdle that you've got and just say, right, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to give it a go because I can only be in a better place if I try.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:12
Absolutely. And bless you. I bet you wished Children in Need was in the summertime because I saw you and I was absolutely freezing. You're like, why is Children in Need in November?
Dr. Ranj 10:23
It was freezing. We were doing it in an outside Lido. I think they wanted to make it as challenging as possible. And yeah, it was not my favourite place to swim yet.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:35
I did question him. Why did they put him outside? Why didn't they choose a nice, toasty, warm swimming pool centre or something?
Dr. Ranj 10:42
No, apparently that was going to be too easy.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:44
Too easy, too easy. Well, I think it's incredible your continuous evolution of self and commitment to being better. And if we just sort of go back to young Ranj, right? So you as a child and that sort of mindset, did you feel like you had it back then? Because there's something I read and again, it may not be true because I found it on the internet. However, it was the BBC website. So, you know, that you got your first GCSE at age eight. Is that true? Yes.
Dr. Ranj 11:17
Yeah, that is true. Oh my goodness. Ranj There's a story behind it though. Obviously, I'm of Indian heritage. My home language is Punjabi. So growing up, I was sent to Punjabi school every Sunday to learn how to read it, write it, speak it. And I hated going to school on a Sunday like all kids do, because Monday to Friday was enough for me. But the deal I had with my parents was that once I got my GCSE, I was allowed to finish and leave. So I thought, okay, if that's the deal, then I'm going to show you.
And so at the age of eight, I took my Punjabi GCSE exams and I passed, which was to me at the time, I didn't know what a GCSE was. I just thought it was a test that you take. So, and then I remember going into my primary school, taking this certificate to my headmaster, because they used to do this thing where if you got a swimming certificate or if you got some sort of achievement, they would announce it in assembly and you sort of go up and, you know, receive your certificate. It was a very kind of lovely way of celebrating. I was no good at swimming, obviously. I couldn't swim. I wasn't sporty. I wasn't getting any of those badges or any of those accolades. So I took this certificate in and said, look, I've done this. Could you do that assembly thing that you do? Because I'm not going to get one for playing sport, let's be honest. And my headmaster just kind of looked at it and almost fell off his chair and said, do you know what this is?
And I was like, no. Then he started calling all the other teachers in. He's like, this is a GCSE. This is what you do when you're 16. I was like, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It was my exit strategy. And please, can you do that thing in assembly? So I think there's a bit of me that has always carried this feeling that if you say that I can't do something, I'm going to prove to you that I can. And I do like challenging myself. I do like pushing myself out of my comfort zone because I believe that's where real growth comes. And so, yeah, I'm very much been driven in that sense that it was actually in a weird way, one of my first senses of achievement, that I could do something, that I was good enough to do something. I didn't grow up with very much.
So it certainly wasn't existing in an environment where I could just do or have whatever I wanted. And there was certainly not that comfort that everything was always going to be fine. It was always going to be straightforward work for everything. My parents had to, our parents often, a lot of first generation immigrant families know this, you know, we have to work for absolutely everything. And I had to work for absolutely everything. And that has carried on. Nothing has been given to me or I have not been born into inherited anything. I have had to work. And that is where my work ethic comes from is that it's okay to have. That's absolutely fine. It is. And actually it gives me a sense of value in everything I do and have. And I've just carried that sort of spirit and that mindset through that if I want to do something, I'm going to have to make it happen. And I will be proud of it afterwards, hopefully.
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:22
Oh, you should be so proud of everything so far. And there'll be more to come, no doubt. Maybe in that moment at the awards when we connected briefly, maybe that was that connection, you know, because everything you have just said, I could have said those same words. That's my life that you've just described. You know, first generation, I was really cautious to us. I saw all these school trips where it needed additional money to go. And I would never ask. I wouldn't even show the letter because I knew that we didn't have much. And I just worked and I worked and I studied. My privilege, if anything, comes from passing the 11 plus back then it was called the 11 plus where you would get into a grammar school. And I went into a selective all-girls school and I was surrounded by white middle class girls. And I was in the minority, but I was being taught by the same teachers as those white middle class.
And I just absorbed it all. And I took it in and I just made the most of that opportunity. And someone said to me one day, which I didn't understand at the time, this was in my adult life, you know, she said Nadia you know, you're self made. And I really respect that. And I walked away and I still didn't quite understand what she'd meant. What does that mean? And then I've gradually understood, you know, that actually I've made who I am today. I continue to push with that mindset that you're talking about. What was your experience like at school?
Dr. Ranj 15:49
I wouldn't look back and think, oh gosh, I want to do that all again. I didn't really enjoy school. I think in a strange way, being of South Asian background, I felt a little bit different. I wasn't particularly academic when I was very young. I wasn't sporty. It didn't ignite me until I met a teacher, actually, a lady called Mrs. Page, who was the first person to tell me I was good at something or I could be good at something. Interestingly, over 30 years later, she came to see me in Pantomime in Kent and had all my school reports photocopied and brought them with her. And it was so such a lovely circular moment where she was the first person. Obviously, Pantomime is a side story for me, for people who don't know, and involves a lot of singing and dancing. She was the first person who told me I could sing and encouraged me to be musical and creative. And for her to come and watch me doing something very musical and creative and me to say to her, thank you for being that person who saw something and just ignited that spark of something because it makes me so happy now. So yeah, school, I wasn't particularly academic. I got to secondary school, though, and I thought, right, I need to do something. Like, I feel a little bit aimless. I feel a little bit like I don't know who I am or what I want. And I just thought, well, what do I want to do with life? What do I want as a career? We've very much been encouraged to think about careers.
And I kind of thought, well, I want to help people. I love science. I love working out the way things tick. Tell you what, and obviously, in our community, being a doctor was a very, like, you know, it's one of those professions that's incredible. That's amazing. Very prestigious. Yeah. So I thought, do you know what? I'll try for that. I'll set myself that challenge. I didn't think I could because no one in my family was a doctor until our local pharmacist said to me, why don't you just have a go? Why don't you just try and see what happens?
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:46
So the person in the local pharmacy told you.
Dr. Ranj 17:49
Yeah, local pharmacist.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:51
That's brilliant.
Dr. Ranj 17:53
Again, all these little nuggets of encouragement, these sparks that are ignited. And it's true. Again, it was very much just challenge yourself, just try it and see what happens. You're only going to end up in a better place. So, so that's what I did. I focused and I knuckled down. And weirdly, as you see it working, as I started to then achieve academically, I thought I can do this. Oh, I can. If I put the work in, it does actually translate into results. And then I just put work in. I, like you, absorbed everything. I was in a selected school with predominantly white middle-class kids. There was only a small non-white population. Most of them were actually the children of doctors. And I just thought, right, okay, I am just going to try my absolute best. And because it was my exit strategy, the better I do in school, the better I'm going to go on to something better. I'm going to go on to something else. So yeah, that's what I did. So I would say I wasn't the outspoken one at school. I certainly wasn't the sporty, sort of enthusiastic, popular one. I just knuckled down and got on with it and thought, I just need to get through this.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:04
And there's a pattern there around, you've used the word exit strategy a couple of times, and there's something about striving for more, but also acknowledging in yourself that where I am at the moment, I think it can be better and I don't want it to be like this. And so I want to be in control and therefore do as much as I possibly can so that this that I'm in right now isn't it. There is more and I want to get to more, but the only way I can get to more is if I put in myself.
Is that right?
Dr. Ranj 19:36
Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of been a part of my mindset all along, is that if I want better, I have to work more and try harder and put the work in. And certainly I, you know, if you come from a particular place or a particular background, you have to put in more work. And coming from my background and my community and my family, I knew I was going to have to put in more work. Of course I was going to have to, but I was ready to show people that I could.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:06
Wow. You certainly have. I watched the Imposter Syndrome series that you were part of and you said something that stuck with me. And you said that your parents didn't meet a need that you had. And maybe it was cut or edited out. Maybe you did expand on it, but it just left me hanging a little bit. And what did you mean by that?
Dr. Ranj 20:29
I suppose what I meant is there is no such thing as the perfect parent. It's a really hard job. It's one of, for those who are lucky enough to be parents, you know how difficult it is to raise another human being. And nobody tells you how to do it. There isn't a manual on how to do it right. There are lots of opinions. And, you know, that's coloured by our own experiences of growing up and people telling us what to do, etc. So my parents had a very different upbringing to me. Their style of parenting was a particular way when they were growing, they grew up in India in a rural sort of setting. You know, they're both from farming backgrounds. So they had a very different upbringing to me. And I was trying to grow up in the UK as a kid who wanted to fulfil his potential, but didn't always have or see the means to do so. He wanted to be better, but didn't necessarily, I guess, have people around him that understood who he was and what he wanted. And that wasn't because they were neglectful or, you know, they weren't doing a good job. It's just, they just didn't know how to deal with this kid. And they tried to parent him as they thought and knew was the right way to do it. And actually, for me, in hindsight, it probably wasn't. I suppose we think of that as intelligent child.
And that side of me wasn't really, I suppose, allowed to flourish or allowed to kind of exercise itself as much. It was very much with my parents. It was right. Okay. You need to work hard at school. You need to achieve, you need to study because you have this end goal. So that's what you're going to do to the exclusion of everything else. And I needed everything else. It was fine. I could knuckle down and work hard and try and achieve those grades and do all of that stuff. But I also needed somebody to just stop and say, how are you? What do you want? How do you feel? That I didn't have. And that's because they didn't have that. So now that I work with kids and young people and having had that experience and coming at it from the professional side that I do, I know the value of that. I know the importance of encouraging kids to be the best that they can be and to strive and work. Those values are so important. But I also know the importance of just pausing and saying to them, no matter what happens, I'll still be here. I will always be here. And if you need anything, I'm here for you.
And if you ever feel any kind of way, you can tell me. That's the part of it. I think that I wish I had a bit more of. And I think a lot of people probably have that experience, especially in those times. I grew up in the eighties, which, you know, it was a very different world. I think that's what it was. I think they just didn't have the benefit of my hindsight and my experience. They didn't grow up in this country. They didn't have the benefit of the education that I was having. So I don't, I by no means begrudge them. I'm actually extremely proud of my parents because I think what they did, they moved to the UK when they were 21, just after they got married with basically nothing and what they've done and achieved and what they've created and the grounding that they've given me. I couldn't do that. I don't think I would be. So I'm extremely proud of what they did, given that they didn't come here with an education or with skills or with qualifications or anything like that, that I've been privileged to have. They didn't have a fallback option, but what they've done and what they fought for in the environment that they did it in is remarkable.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:00
And I hear you and we're not taking away from their parenting or, you know, they're doing their best and that courage, you know, again, it resonates so much with me. So my parents were born and brought up in Mauritius and my dad said to his parents at age 18, I think it was, that he wanted to go come to England. And somehow they managed to get some money together across family members and they got him a ticket, but they only had enough money for one way.
It was a boat ticket, right? There's a boat. So he sat on a boat for one month and he told me later that he cried a lot of the time. And there was this couple who just sort of helped him and supported him as he sailed from Mauritius to England and started a life for himself, you know, and it is incredible when you hear those stories and how their story obviously lives within us and we carry that, but also how their parenting has shaped you. And obviously from my parents has shaped me in what I see they was missing and in what, in how I now parent, because they parented me in a different way. And for you, what I've heard, you know, you wouldn't be who you are.
You wouldn't have that mindset of that you do and that ability to really see someone and ask them, how are you if it wasn't absent in your own upbringing? And I think that's beautiful.
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So you were married for a period of time, for five years before you came out. And I'm intrigued by this story. And please feel free to say as much or as little as you would like, as I appreciate it's very personal. But I'm interested more in a systemic lens on this, not just you specifically in your story, but you're not alone. There are so many people of the LGBTQ plus community who fall into the societal expectations of a heteronormative path, right? And what I mean by that is, you know, what's the expectation of me as an individual? Oh, okay. Well, I'm a woman and so I'll marry a man or I'm a man. And also therefore, that's what's expected to marry a woman. And so I'm curious of your insights here really about through your own lived experience, but also what you see in the LGBTQ plus community around. What are those pressures do you feel? And why is it still that we're falling into these patterns where there are expectations about who you should be partnered with and marry?
Dr. Ranj 27:39
Exactly. It is a very personal part of my life, but it's something I've spoken about a lot, because I know how important it is to share our stories and our experiences for others who might be in a similar situation. So for me, it took me a long time to discover that how I see sexuality isn't just binary or black and white. For me, it's more intricately complicated and beautiful than that. And I identify as a queer person, which basically means for those who may not understand that term, once it was used in a derogatory way, but we have kind of reclaimed it, it is somebody who is not strictly straight. You know, you might be somewhere along that spectrum of sexuality. You might identify a bit more as gay. There might be a part of you that actually is bisexual. There might be, you know, it's just not as straightforward as the gay or straight bit.
It took me a long time to work that out. But growing up, remember growing up in the time and environment I grew up with the upbringing I was having, it was very much, you know, there were societal expectations. There were cultural expectations. I didn't have any experience of the LGBTQ plus community full stop. So I didn't know. And if I was being told, right, this is how life is supposed to be. So that's what you've got to work for. So that's where I thought my happiness was. I thought my happiness was growing up, getting married to a woman, having kids and a family and living life the way everybody else was and expected. Fortunately, since then, I feel like we have all grown a little bit outside of that. And I now know that life is very, and can be very different. And there are lots of ways to be happy and lots of ways to exist and lots of different colours from the black and white that I was seeing when I was a kid. So, you know, I ended up, I left university, started my first job. I fell in love with somebody who I was working with. We got married. And unfortunately, that didn't work out. But it was the process of that breaking down. I went through counselling at that point, because I needed to just make sense of what was happening. Because in my head, I had done everything right. But it didn't work. So if I've put the work in, and I've done everything I'm supposed to be doing, and for all intents and purposes, it was what it was supposed to be, why didn't it work? And it's only then that I think in counselling, I really confronted the fact that I wasn't being 100% me. I wasn't being authentically who I was. And I realised if I was going to be truly happy, I was going to have to be truly me. And that took a long process of unlearning everything that I'd learned growing up and believed to relearning who I was and what it meant to be. And at that point, that was when I was 30, I came out as it were, or I think I came to the realisation of who I really was and who I wanted to be, and where my happiness actually was, rather than where my happiness was supposed to be. And it wasn't an easy process.
It was difficult. It was painful for not just myself, for my ex-partner, for all our family around us. And I still to this day think about it a lot. But it has made me the way I am now. That process, however difficult, it was essential for me to become who I am now, to be me. And also, I didn't want it to stop there. That's why I now talk about it a lot. That's why I now try to be as visible as possible as my diverse, intersectional self. I try to talk about those sorts of experiences and issues for other people, because I want them to learn from what I learned. And we have moved on from those times quite a lot. We've made a huge amount of progress just even in the last 10 years. But there are still people out there, particularly from certain communities and backgrounds, who feel like they cannot be who they are. And therefore, there's work to be done. And that's what I'm here for. That's what I am here to do, to help do.
I'm not taking that entire job by myself. But if I can play a little part in changing someone's mindset, or making them just open their mind a little bit to other possibilities, or to make them feel some sort of comfort or courage. You use the word courage a lot. If I can inspire a bit of that courage, then that's what I'm here to do. And I'm happy to give that a go.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:20
And in everything that I hear and see in you, what you put out there, and it's that sense of purpose for me that runs really deep in all of what you say. And in every decision, it seems a real active choice, which I really deeply respect, particularly given that a lot of it brings up personal pain for you and trauma for you. That's so powerful for me, particularly to leverage what you have done for yourself, which is make a name for yourself outside of your day job, but outside of your role as a medical doctor. That's great, but it's even better when you can utilise it in the way that you're utilising it with that sense of purpose and authenticity. We've spoken about your diversity characteristics and the intersectionality of them. There's many that you hold in that cultural lens, and the messages that you have had embedded in you by role models, by those around you as a young age, as well as obviously age 30. Still, I can't get over that age when you were going through counselling and suddenly realised that this isn't, I'm not wholly being me. But all of that, no doubt, would have shaped you, but also, and again, I'm talking systemically, as you discover who you are, shapes how the world interacts with you and responds. And so, I'm curious then about whether it is in your medical world or otherwise, how did it respond to you being all of the wonderful diversity characteristics that you hold, but in particular with your queer kind of identity?
And I suppose, if I'm being really honest in my question, as a children's medical doctor, because there's a stigma there, which I'm naming, how did it respond and how does it continue to respond?
Dr. Ranj 34:12
I think for anyone, particularly when I came out in inverted commas, or for anyone who was coming out at that time, we're talking almost 15 years ago now, society wasn't what it is now. And there was a much greater stigma, a much greater sense of concern and worry. And it was scary. I'm not going to lie. It was scary to come out to people. And the other hardest part was every time I would go into a new environment or meet someone new, it felt like I had to do it over and over again, which is really difficult. So, you don't just come out to your friends, you don't just come out to your family, you come out to your work colleagues, you come out to somebody else. And it took me a long time to get used to doing that. That was hard. That was like reliving a slightly traumatic thing every time. But you get stronger the more you do it. The more you do it, the easier it becomes.
And then to a point where it felt like people around me were growing at the same time. So, what do you mean by that? People around me were coming on a journey too, because society was coming on a journey then. I think it was a turning, not a turning point for society as such, but I think it felt like there was real growth happening around me. But I must also say that I think part of it is because I'm a man, I enjoy that privilege. And I have that privilege that I think society listens to men a bit more than other people. And I think there was some of that there. And because I had a position because of my job, I think it carried a little bit more. But there's the authority there. But I think what, in a weird way, how, especially because I work with kids and I worked in children's TV, I had to show people, and I may be choosing my words badly here, but I had to show people that we are not a threat. I had to prove that to people. And I had to show people that you could be gay and successful, gay and, gay and brown, gay and a doctor, gay and a TV presenter, gay and work with children. And I didn't want my identity to centre around my sexuality. I wanted people to see me for who I was in totality, and also think, oh, he's gay. And, and that's what kids do these days, thankfully.
And I think the only reason people responded, and I saw this happening, family, friends, and certainly my audience were responding in such a positive way. And they were saying, I was getting messages from parents saying, it's so nice for my kids to see somebody on TV doing this, who just happens to be gay, and to show them that it can be. Because for so many of us growing up in the 80s and 90s, being gay meant a death sentence, in many ways, it was the end. Like you were going to have a difficult life, you were probably going to suffer from a horrible condition. And it was the end of it. That's it, you were condemning yourself. And for a period of time, I think that was many people's truth. But I wanted to show people that is not what happens to all of us. That is not the way it has to be. And certainly, many people, I think, have shown everyone that how great we can be as queer individuals, as diverse individuals, as people from different backgrounds. I'm not using that as my dead end anymore. I don't see it as a dead end. I see my intersectionality as a strength now. It's my superpower.
The collision of those strings I have to my bow is where my strength comes from. And that's how I see it now. Because I saw the responses I was getting from others. And I was very lucky, you know, many people from my background, if they come out, or when they come out, they experience a sense of being outcast or rejected, and isolation and everything like that. I didn't have that. I was very lucky not to experience that. But I also understand that is not a universal experience. I had then a responsibility to show everybody, especially from my community and my background, that you can be this person. It is not bad news. It is not a disadvantage. Sure, we have to work harder sometimes, but I'm going to show you that I can be happy. And I have never been happier. That is one thing I would say to anyone considering how to be themselves or whether to be themselves. Trust me, you will never be happier. It's not an easy process to get there. And you may experience a lot of pain and heartache, which a lot of us do. But now that I am where I am, and I'm very lucky to be where I am, I know I have never been happier. And I will not trade that for anything. But I will bloody work my hardest to make sure other people can feel that too.
Nadia Nagamootoo 38:56
Yeah. And I see that. I see you working incredibly hard to show that. And I will challenge you on your language there, because yes, there might have been a bit of luck in getting to where you are. But my goodness, have you made your path. And that is so important to recognise that actually, you know, it hasn't been easy. And yeah, some things might have fallen in place a little bit, you know, for you when you weren't necessarily trying. But from the sounds of things and from my perspective, there's only a huge amount of work there to be where you are now.
Dr. Ranj 39:28
Yeah, it's a hustle and we have to hustle.
Nadia Nagamootoo 39:32
Hi, I hope you're enjoying this special episode of Why Care? I wanted to let you know that as we approach the end of season four, I'm now looking for guests to join me for season five. If you have a powerful diversity, equity and inclusion related story to share, are a thought leader in the space, or maybe you've written a book relevant to the field, drop me a line. I'm passionate about gathering different voices, using Why Care as a platform for storytelling, generating new ideas and stimulating new discussion. Most importantly, I hope these conversations contribute towards a changing mindset and more inclusive behaviours both in the workplace and in society more generally. DM me on LinkedIn or Insta at Nadia Nagamootoo to contribute towards this purpose as a guest on the show. Back to the episode.
Do you consider yourself to be a leader?
Dr. Ranj 40:23
I didn't have the confidence or the self-belief that I could be in any way. I think as I've grown up and the experiences that I've had and the stuff I've learned about myself and the work I've put in, I wouldn't think of myself as a leader as such. But certainly I think of myself as someone with responsibility to be the best that I can and to show other people and to help others.
If that's being a leader, then so be it. But I don't take joy in ordering people around. I don't take any pleasure in telling people what to do. But if I can be the facilitator for you to be your best self and to do the best job that you can and to help someone in any way, and if that's being a leader, then I will take that role.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:09
Yeah, well, that's certainly my definition. I think the previous definition of like, trust me, I know what I'm doing, follow me, this is the path. It's a real traditional, very archetypal leader, which we know, we still see, sadly, in some of those people who get into powerful positions. But for me, leadership embodies someone who is willing to look deeply within themselves and absolutely is willing to look and really see the people around them and really notice what those people around them need to be their best selves. And when I read and watch and listen to everything that you put out in the world, for me, there's no other label for it.
Dr. Ranj 41:57
I would say sometimes, you're right, you know, we have an archetypal idea of what leaders are because of things we've seen and watched and experienced. Sometimes I think the best leaders are actually the people who don't think that they are leaders. They just do their job and they try to be the best people that they can and they try to do the best by the people around them and they want to genuinely make things better.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:20
Let's talk about your books. I love the fact that you're an author and I love that you just put your hand to something different once again, right? And I'm also an author, which is a really weird thing to say. The last year, I've added an identity to myself, which is an author and I'm still coming to terms with it. But you've written a few books and some specifically for boys, including How to Be a Boy and Do It Your Own Way. And so I'm intrigued. Tell me a little bit about why you decided to write these books for boys.
Dr. Ranj 42:53
Being an author was not really on my horizon, interestingly. I was encouraged to do so and I took the challenge and I'm glad I did. It's really hard work. It's tough. I realised quite quickly the university had given me an element of PTSD after all the essays and dissertations I'd had to do. So writing, for me, isn't an easy process. It requires a lot of energy. And actually, I wrote How to Be a Boy when I was actually struggling with brain fog from long COVID. So it was a very difficult write for me, but I'm glad I did it. The reason that particular book came about, How to Be a Boy and Do It Your Own Way, was a direct response and antidote to some of the non-helpful, let's say, rhetoric that I think young boys and men are seeing and hearing, particularly on social spaces, whether that be online or otherwise. And it was people like, and I make no apologies for naming him, people like Andrew Tate, who are very vocal, have a very specific set of opinions, which actually, I think, aren't particularly healthy or helpful. But unless they go unchallenged, kids and young men are listening to these things and believing them to be true. And there are a lot of people out there who believe that sort of thing. And I would like to think that we're better than that. So it was an antidote to things like that. But I wanted it to be a bit more than that. So I wanted it to speak to every kind of boy. So ironically, it's called How to Be a Boy. It was never originally titled that.
When I was writing the book, it was titled Mankind. And it was using, learning from kindness and using kindness to be the best type of boy or man you could and want to be. And it was all about showing kindness to yourself and others. So it was born out of that idea, is using kindness to fight all of this stuff and compassion and that core feeling. And it was only through focus groups when parents and kids were reading the book in its early stages that they said, this is a guide on how to be a boy. You should call it that. But it doesn't tell you how to be a boy. It doesn't. It actually does not do that. It's called that, but it does not tell you. What it does is it encourages you to find out what kind of boy or man you might be, no matter what iteration of that there is. And it's inclusive on purpose. It talks about every kind of way we think about what a boy is. What do we think about what a man is?
How has that changed? What are the different ways to be that you don't have to be a particular way. If you happen to be traditionally masculine and what we think of as masculine or have thought of that, then that's absolutely fine. You celebrate you, you be you. But if you're not, tell you what, that's perfectly okay. And I'm going to show you how there are ways to be your best self. So it is about being your best self, no matter who you are, sort of encapsulated in this idea of what is it to be a boy and man now. Let's pick apart things like masculinity. What does that actually mean? Do you have to be masculine? Of course you don't. And I intentionally and deliberately injected queer and voices of colour into this book because I didn't want it to just be about me, but I didn't want it to just be about books for so long have focused around a heteronormative white male voice and opinion, let's say, loosely speaking. I'm not saying it's all like that, but it has done, not even through necessarily a deliberate thing, but it has always been like that. But I wanted it to show everything else. So we have ideas and interviews and opinions from queer people of colour, from queer people in business, queer leaders, a lady Phil, who's a force in diversity and inclusion and LGBTQ spaces. I have an interview with my best friend where I ask her, she, as a woman, what do you think it takes to be a man? What is your, from the perspective of a woman who hasn't always been at the fore, like women haven't been at the forefront of society in the world, but from you seeing it from where you are, tell us what we should be doing. How can we be better? As well as people who do work in leadership and do, Gethin Jones did a whole degree in sports leadership. And I wanted him to talk about what him, what being a leader is to him. So I wanted boys to hear it from lots of different people, but I wanted to just open people's minds up. Not just them, their parents and carers as well. I wanted to show them how masculinity is actually a fluid thing because it's been changed over time and across cultures. I come from a South Asian culture where we recognised a third gender for thousands of years, and we have been absolutely fine.
The world hasn't collapsed around us, you know, and in fact, we have learned and revered those sorts of things. And I wanted to show you people that living kids young today may just be seeing the world through a specific lens and actually look outside that lens because what you may think may not necessarily be the whole thing. And so it's not about being a boy at all. It's about being a good person and being your best self.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:23
That's exactly it. And it's such a brilliant book to put out in the world. And I do hope that anyone who has children in general, you know, it doesn't have to be just boys. I think everyone needs to understand the stereotypes, the boundaries that we place on young children, young boys, young girls for the expectation, the societal expectations that are so unhelpful and lead to the outcomes that we see in today's world, including poor mental health of men, and including, sadly, the increasing number of rapes and the inability to be able to express emotion and for it to then come out in a really unhealthy way. So, you know, I totally hear the meaning behind the book and the purpose of it. I can't talk to you and not talk about Strictly Ranj. I'm a huge fan of the show, I have to say. And you were on as soon as 2018, right? You were a contestant?
Dr. Ranj 49:27
Yes. Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 49:28
And you said in this article, again, you would have wanted to be paired with a man, but it wasn't the done thing then. OK. And I was like, do you know what? That's only five years ago. That's not that long. And that really helps me to understand how much things change so quickly, so rapidly over the last five years that only in 2018, it was a not the done thing. And yet, I don't even know what series it was, maybe only two series later, or even then, I can't remember. And now it's just completely normal to have male pair, women, woman pair, much more diversity in the show. Can you reflect a little bit on that over the last five years? What is the change that you have seen? And how have shows like Strictly helped with that societally, with that mindset shift, with the acceptance?
Dr. Ranj 50:21
I think I certainly wasn't the first person to express that sort of view, you know. And Strictly is a wonderful show. It is fantastic. It is full of joy and everything that's brilliant about dance and about all of that stuff. But the tricky thing is that even though myself and some people that had come before me would have loved to have been in the same sex pairing, the industry was hesitant because of how people may react to it. And I want to say now, we told you so, that if anything, this was going to be a strength, not a risk. But at the time, it was seen as a risk. And I understand that. And that wasn't because of the people in charge.
It's because of the audience. It's because it's all about what the audience might want and how they might react. And it took people to try it and show it because same sex pairings in Latin and Ballroom are nothing new. So that's been happening for years and years. That's nothing out of the ordinary. But to put it on television, it was all about how will the audience react to this. And I'd like to say that it's only made it stronger. The reason it couldn't work, it needed to be at the right time with the right people in the right way for the audience to be able to digest it and understand it. It had to be done right. It absolutely. For instance, I talk about my coming out process and the impact it had on my family, my parents, particularly, who grew up in a very different world with very different mindset and attitudes. Me going to them and shoving something in their face, say, right, this is who I am, you have to deal with it, is totally the wrong way of telling the people I really care about who I am, how I feel and what I'm going through. It had to be done at the right time in the right way in a way that they could process it. And it's taken them a long time because what I've learned in 30 years at the time, I could not expect them to learn in 30 minutes. So there is this two way relationship that you have to have with stuff like that. And I think that's what strictly needed. It needed a two way understanding between itself and its audience. And I'm so glad it's happened, though, because it has made the show so much more beautiful. It's fantastic. I just wish it was me. I wish I could have been that person. All of us were like, oh, I wish it could have been me. But I understand it had to be at the right time in the right way.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:05
Yeah. And I hear that. And I hear that there's so many systems coming in here with the society as a system and whether that's ready and prepared to see and watch and accept, you know, there's a system of the BBC, you know, and the system of the show itself and what they want to protect, but also acknowledging the power and the influence that they have, which is huge, actually.
Dr. Ranj 53:28
Yes. It's a fine balance. It's a very fine balance.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:31
Right. And then you get it. You know, I can see how these powerful programmes, structures, organisations can really initiate and help influence change and a mindset shift. And I think that Strictly has done an incredible job. Yes, it would have been nice that they did earlier. But my goodness, in what they've managed to do in a short space of time since they have embraced it is absolutely incredible for diversity, equity and inclusion in general, for the LGBTQ plus community, for the deaf community, for the disabled communities. And that, for me, is the power of media and used in a really positive way.
Dr. Ranj 54:14
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we can have all the best ideals and ideas in the world and want to implement them and be passionate about them. But if everything else isn't ready, it's just not sometimes the right time. That doesn't make it bad. It just means that they need to have the growth, the same growth or catch up in a way. And interestingly, we talk about inclusion.
When I did Strictly, Jeanette, my partner and I were the first people on Strictly to introduce signing. So for hard of hearing and deaf people into the show, we did that as a deliberate thing. It was inspired by a little girl called Alice, who is deaf and use signing and promote signing in schools and is a massive fan of the show. We did it to be a little bit more inclusive. It was a tiny little gesture in every show, but it meant so much to a huge community out there. So I like to think we at least left our mark on it and started something, even if it wasn't the same sex thing. I like to think we started something.
Nadia Nagamootoo 55:12
Yeah, I'm sure. You know what? It's ripples. It's a drop, but it has a ripple effect. And that's my strong belief. That's it.
Dr. Ranj 55:24
Exactly it. We don't have to do huge things. We don't have to make huge changes or huge gestures and to sometimes have a big impact. Sometimes it is just the smallest thing that starts a ripple.
Nadia Nagamootoo 55:35
Exactly. So, Ranj, what an amazing conversation, an hour with you, and I'm completely uplifted. I have to say a huge thank you for offering everything that you have and sharing with me so generously. Your profile, I don't know, I often ask my guests to share where's the best place for people to find you. It's quite obvious. I think mostly people can follow you on Insta.
That's right, isn't it? You're pretty active there.
Dr. Ranj 56:02
Yeah, that's the best place. Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 56:04
And your books are clearly all on Amazon for people to buy. For those who are wanting to find out more about this episode, the usual place, the Avenirconsultingservices.com website under show notes and the full transcript also available. Ranj, my goodness, what a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for joining me.
Dr. Ranj 56:27
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 56:29
That concludes this special season four Why Care episode. There were moments in this episode where I was so moved by Ranj's story, his pain and trauma, with the knowledge that he's unfortunately by far the only one to so successfully cover aspects of who they are at a young age that they don't realize it until adulthood, when there's then a lot of unlearning, relearning, and deep work to be done. I love Ranj's ethos in life, Life isn't a dress rehearsal, it's the real show. His no regrets, give it a go attitude is inspiring, as is his deep purpose for continuously striving for people to lead happier and healthier lives. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family.
Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Jenny Lynton for supporting with the Show Notes and getting it out there on social media.
