Why Care? Special Episode: Dame Kelly Holmes. - Unique
“I was super scared of going into pride...You know, the fact is, that I'd already now alluded to the fact I was gay. I mean, so it was easier to now be there. But, I didn't know how I was going to feel about being submersed in that world, because I'd been so far detached. Now, I know there's an element of people that go, “Well, of course, we knew… Why didn't you come out earlier, but you don't know my story. And it became some of the bits that I was listening to thinking… now I have this whole thought process of, there's so many people like me out there that are petrified for whatever reason of really showing their truth…So the community, they expect you to be a voice for people when you're in the public eye, but…if you have a life like I did, that's not a normal, natural thing to suddenly do. And so you're battling against people who are very proud of you and so happy for you to people questioning your reasons for not doing it in the first place - without actually understanding people.”
In the second special celebrity episode of Why Care? I am joined by the multi-talented, Double Olympic Champion, Dame Kelly Holmes. We dive deeper into her journey of self-discovery, personal experiences, and traumas, which she explores in her powerful memoir Unique. Kelly shares her emotional backstory in which she concealed her true identity and sexuality from the public and lived in fear for most of her life. We discuss the discriminatory military laws and systemic mistreatment of LGBTQ+ individuals in the British army, as well as the mental health impact. As a world-class athlete, Kelly opens up about the pressure to hide her sexuality, and how she overcame her fears and revealed her authentic self publicly. Kelly then shares her experiences attending a Pride event, becoming part of a supportive community, and about her LGBTQ+ advocacy work.
At 18, Kelly pursued her dream to be an HGV driver and Physical Training Instructor in the British Army. In 1998, she was awarded a MBE for her services to the British Army and in 2018 became the first individual to be appointed Honorary Colonel to a regular unit. Meanwhile, Kelly also pursued her Olympic dream and was catapulted to fame in 2004 at the Athens Olympic Games for being the first woman ever in Great Britain to win two gold medals at the same games. She continued to raise the bar as an Olympic, Commonwealth, and European champion, achieving seven Gold, eight Silver, and four Bronze medals. She also won BBC Sports Personality of the Year and European Athlete of the Year.
During the episode, Kelly shares her experiences of concealing her true identity and the fear she faced in revealing her sexuality to the public. She highlights the importance of education, understanding, acceptance, and authenticity regarding LGBTQ+ issues and the need to normalise attitudes toward the LGBTQ+ community. As Kelly recounts her extraordinary life story, she uncovers her experiences in the military, the traumatic military raids, and discriminatory laws targeting LGBTQ+ individuals. She then exposes the wider systemic discrimination in the military and the psychological traumas and mental health issues it caused, which she explored in her ITV documentary, Kelly Holmes: Being Me.
As she developed her public persona as an international Olympic champion and world-class athlete, Kelly opens up about her fear of not being accepted for her sexuality and her anxiety about how this could impact her achievements. As she juggled her dual identity, she used defensive methods and was careful about how she projected herself to avoid judgment. Kelly then went on a journey of self-discovery, and at the age of 50, she finally accepted herself and came out about her sexuality. She embraced her true identity publicly the 2022 London Pride event, which was a powerful moment for her. Kelly acknowledges the pressures, challenges, and complexities of the coming out process, and uses her platform as an opportunity to combat stereotypes and to be an advocate for change. As a motivational speaker, Kelly shares how she connects with and inspires people through her personal experiences, but realises that her sexuality is just one aspect of her life. Now she has found happiness and inner peace, she focuses on her work and achievements and recognises the freedom of living authentically in a world where she can be proud to be herself, without the need for validation.
Key points:
- Challenging Societal Stigmas - Kelly reflects on how she realised she was attracted to women at a young age. However in the 1980s, she felt pressured as there were negative societal stigmas towards LGBTQ+ individuals. Over time, Kelly witnessed a societal shift, and she finally found the courage to reveal the truth about her sexuality. Now Kelly has found her ‘voice,’ she highlights the importance of acceptance, understanding, support, education, and normalising conversations about LGBTQ+ issues, especially for mental health and wellbeing. She also challenges everyone to reassess their prejudices, as sexuality shouldn’t be a barrier to success.
- Systemic Discrimination - Kelly reveals more about the pressures to conceal her identity while she pursued her military career, at a time when there were laws and even military raids against LGBTQ+ individuals. This meant she lived in a state of fear and anxiety, which had a lasting impact. Kelly exposed more about this systemic discrimination in her ITV documentary, Kelly Holmes: Being Me. In spite of her challenges, Kelly highlights that progress has been made in tackling this discrimination and highlights the significance of addressing mental health issues.
- Navigating Multiple Identities - Kelly reveals how she had a life-long passion to pursue her military career and athletic goals, as she associated this with her identity, self-worth, and a way to ‘blur her insecurities.’ Kelly also had to think strategically to balance both careers, and focused on her goals and her public image. Although she was put on a pedestal for her professional achievements, she lived in fear that her career could be shadowed by societal prejudices, simply for revealing her sexuality to the public. Kelly admits how, although she witnessed societal progress towards the LGBTQ+ community, this fear of ‘what if?’ was still engrained in her psyche.
- Concealing Her True Self - Kelly opens up about how much her fear of revealing her true self seeped into every aspect of her life, including her personal and professional interactions. She was reluctant to attend Pride events or even engage in discussions about diversity and inclusion. This overriding fear led her to maintain a guarded and detached demeanor for most of her life, to avoid people getting too close. This, she shares, took its toll on her mental health.
- Adjusting to a New Identity - Although she finally found her voice and opened up about her sexuality at the age of 50, she still found the process complex and faced challenges to adjust to her new identity. She felt pressure to share this aspect of her identity over and over again with each person she encountered.
- LGBTQ+ Advocacy - Kelly emphasises the importance of allowing everyone time and space to share their experiences and individual narrative. She then reflects on how she now feels empowered to embrace her authenticity on her terms, without fear. She uses her experiences to empower others and to be an advocate for diversity, inclusion, LQBTQ+ issues, and mental health.
Links:
Dame Kelly Holmes can be found on:
For more information about Dame Kelly Holmes, visit:
Dame Kelly Holmes’ charity: https://www.damekellyholmestrust.org/
Purchase your copy of my book: Beyond Discomfort: Why inclusive leadership is so hard (and what you can do about it)
Transcript
Dame Kelly Holmes 00:04
Well, I think from my perspective needs to happen. It's more education, more understanding, a more normalization of conversation in the real world because if I go now speaking at a corporate and I explain it the way that I see it from sitting behind the fence and now I'm being very submersed in the community, they get it. Because I'm just talking from a human point of view of this is how I see why it's evolved in that way. And they get it because I'm not shouting about it. I'm not telling them they have to understand what I'm saying. I'm just trying to say it from a personal point of view of why acceptance is very needed for somebody's health and well-being and life. And I think that's because I've had so much trauma hiding who I was from a mental health point of view. I kind of try and put it back to them that do I not have a right just to live my life and, you know, you accepted me running around a track and winning two gold medals for Great Britain. So if I tell you I'm gay now, does that change your opinion? And if it does, it's your problem. I've got that language now to be able to share with people which I didn't have before because I didn't have a voice.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:16
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported, but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out of the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace. From topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection on Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello and welcome to another season four special episode of Why Care? My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. I can't express how deeply honored I am to speak to Dame Kelly Holmes about her life experiences, which she offers in her new book, Unique. Kelly doesn't need much of an introduction, given her many, many world class achievements, but here's some of her backstory.
She joined the British Army at 17, serving for nearly 10 years as a qualified HGV driver and physical training instructor. During a 12-year international career, Kelly won multiple medals at the Commonwealth European World and Olympic level, culminating in two gold medals at the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, which cemented her place in history as the first woman ever in Great Britain to win two gold medals at the same Games. In 2005, she was honored with a damehood for services to sport. In 2008, Kelly founded and is now president of the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust, which puts world class athletes shoulder to shoulder with disadvantaged young people to engage, enable and empower them to be the best version of themselves. She continues to win awards for how she role models and inspires. In this episode, we talk about Kelly's painful story of hiding aspects of who she was for the majority of her life, and how she carried almost a double persona, what the world wanted her to be, and who she felt she was but couldn't share.
We talk about the fear and terror invoked due to being a gay woman in the military, and the freedom and liberation she now feels being able to own who she is. Kelly offers the horrific stories of what happened to LGBTQ Plus military officers that she shed light on in the powerful ITV documentary, Kelly Holmes Being Me, which aired in 2022. She talks about her incredible experience of being at London Pride and being able to stand up as an advocate and finally being part of a community. Her story is so deeply moving, as well as full of hope and power. Enjoy.
Hello, and a huge welcome to Kelly Holmes, Dame Kelly Holmes.
Thank you so much for joining me on Why Care?
Dame Kelly Holmes 05:00
You're welcome.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:01
So, thinking about our brief conversation back at the European Diversity Awards in November.And actually, your book had only just been released back then, right? And since then, I've had an opportunity to read your book, Unique, which I have to say, I think I told you this as well. It was quite a roller coaster, emotional journey, reading about your journey.And what really struck me now, you know, I'm a psychologist, so I'm completely sort of trained, so to speak, to really listen and understand emotions in particular. And what struck me as I read through your story about how you covered in who you are fundamentally, not just your sexuality, but a lot of aspects of who you are in the military and as a British athlete. That fear was the word that came to mind.
And sometimes terror, that word is so shocking that people live in terror. And it struck me in a number of occasions as you were writing how much fear and terror played a part in your life. I really would love to hear from you how that experience has been, how it has shaped who you are now.
Dame Kelly Holmes 06:04
Yeah, I think there's many parts of my life that maybe I could recognise that fear was a big part of that journey. And it was almost from an early age right up until 2022. But I think that way of feeling inside when you are kind of out of control of some of the situations, because you're playing with a lot of it, you know, face debilitating, you're pre-empting the words and making the trauma that you've had in different parts play a massive part of that and then just build and build and build.
But I wrote my own biography back in 2005. Now, when I wrote that, everyone expected it again to be a sporting pile. And what I wanted back then was to ensure that it was actually about the life journey of taking a dream and making it become reality and how difficult that was for the sporting perspective. Because when you feel like you're not very good at something and the dream became bigger than the reality of the person, that's how I can prove to myself I can be great. The sporting success overrun those sorts of thoughts of inferiority, complex negativity to my love. So then obviously the journey I've been on since then that created me doing this book past during my documentary was really to showcase the fact that other trauma led to me having a lot of mental health problems, it's got me being happy, yet I was still successful.And it's almost like blending the two reality of the story with the script that everyone might have been inspired with anyway to actually say, but actually in life, it wasn't as good as it could have been, but I still was successful. So it's that fucking song for me. You know, those thoughts and those dreams and how I got there.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:13
There's so much exactly as you say, it felt like you were living the lives of like almost two different people. There was the life of the person, you know, Dame Kelly Holmes, who'd won two gold medals and had a military career, very successful. And yet this other individual who just didn't feel like they were accepted or could be who they are and completely covering key fundamental aspects of your identity.And so many people still do that. Your story is not unique in the sense that, of course, you are unique as an individual, but unfortunately, people cover constantly and particularly when it comes to LGBTQIA plus. What's the steps that we need to take societally?
It's quite a big question here, but what do you think? Because we made incredible progress. Let's, no, I don't want to deny that.But what do you see as what's necessary? Yeah.
Dame Kelly Holmes 09:07
So I think with the LGBTQIA community, for me, it was really interesting to see how it's evolved over the years, because when I realized I was gay, I was 18, that was in the 80s. Now in the 80s, you had the AIDS epidemic, you had a real society area of real kind of bigotry and bullying and sort of world of being gay was very much obviously stigmatized. But there was a lot of real kind of innuendo and, you know, kind of, oh, you're gay.And it was all like this stuff that used to hear. And of course, with the AIDS epidemic, that was such a heightened piece. I think it sort of frightened a lot of people to admit that they may have been gay during those years, because of course, there was so much negativity around that epidemic, because I really knew exactly what it was.
So then you get to a point of where the growth changed in the 90s and LGBT. And, you know, I've sort of sat on the periphery because, yes, I've been a gay woman for a majority of my life. And I had a lot of people that knew about me in my army days, when there was no, I get to it, but when it was actually very difficult. But in society, I've seen the evolution. Now roll on right up until 2022, when I did my documentary, over those years, I've seen the community growing. And I've also seen how people have accepted or not accepted that growth.
So if I go out and I'm speaking just generally and nobody really knows about me, whether they assume or not, it didn't matter. You hear so much about why is this happening? Why is that happening? And I used to be one of those people going, why are we going through the alphabet? Like I just didn't get why we're trying to like separate everybody until I've had the freedom to listen and to learn and understand more the need for identity to be almost segregated so that somebody feels part of like being seen, but almost also understanding the need for that visibility. Because at the end of the day, no matter what anyone says, the LGBTQI has always been something, forever. It's just not being articulated, identified, put in, you know, into these silos. But we've always existed. What it's done now is given people a voice and a platform to become themselves.
What I think from my perspective needs to happen is more education, more understanding and more normalization of conversation in the real world. Because if I go now speaking at a corporate and I explain it the way that I see it from sitting behind the fence and now I'm being very submersed in the community, they get it because I'm just talking from a human point of view of this is how I see why it's evolved in that way. And they get it because I'm not shouting about it. I'm not telling them they have to understand what I'm saying. I'm just trying to say it from a personal point of view of why acceptance is very needed for somebody's health and well-being and life. And I think that's because I've had so much trauma hiding who I was from a mental health point of view. I kind of try and put it back to them that do I not have a right just to live my life? And, you know, you accepted me running around the track and winning two gold medals for Great Britain. So if I tell you I'm gay now, does that change your opinion?
And if it does, it's your problem. I've got that language now to be able to share with people, which I didn't have before because I didn't have a voice. So it's really evolving for me as well as a person.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:54
What you just said is really powerful there, which is thinking from a business perspective and organizational perspective, who have the responsibility then to ensure that anyone, no matter your diversity characters, whether we're talking about sexual orientation or otherwise, that everyone has that ability to voice who they are and therefore have the language to be able to share exactly what you've shared and feel okay, like feel psychologically safe to be able to do that. I think that a lot of organizations, particularly maybe, and then you've already spoken a little bit about the military and I have to say, gosh, reading about the raids, I mean, it brought a completely different lens to the experience of people who might have been in a same-sex relationship or identified other than hetero, what they must have gone through at the time of living in that fear of those spontaneous raids, searching for any evidence. Yeah.
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In the ITV documentary, it gives us clear that things have moved on in the military. There's a huge amount of progress. What would you say the work still needs to be? What needs to happen?
Dame Kelly Holmes 15:08
I suppose firstly, for those that don't maybe know about the military setup. So whilst in society, we got to a point of lifting all the bans on homosexuality in society, the military still had those bans on, 67 to 2000 when they were lifted. And basically, it was essentially against the law to be gay or another in the military. Now, I didn't stop people being gay, because of course, you are who you are. But what happens is that you join an organisation, something like the military, because you want a career. First and foremost, you don't join because you're thinking about your relationships and kind of a part time job. You join because you want to be, in my case, a soldier. And when I did join, I didn't realise that I was gay either, because of course, it was a month before I was 18, I was still just a teenager. And back then, society really, you know, at school was, sex education was birds and the bees and blowing up condoms. There was no association about anything different. So I just and I was an athlete, you know, I was an athlete as well. So my life was consumed with performance. So joining the military, I realised that I was attracted to a woman, and I didn't know what those feelings meant. But I just felt comfortable in that environment or that feeling. But then at the same time, being young and really wanting to career and then finding and learning about this kind of law that was in place. Of course, then everything was hidden. And it was hidden from the way of you just get on with your job, but you can't stop being who you are.
So you're, you know, you get to know, you know, in this world, you get to know who's gay or who's accepted and who's, it's just sort of like an unspoken language almost. I don't know, I think it's quite powerful. People from the community get in that sense of being, I think is really something that maybe people that aren't in the community don't have as a value as you get to know you just for some reason get to see that they got the same, put them on the same page as you.So anyway, the biggest thing is I wanted a career. So, you know, there was rules like you can't sit on the bed with both feet off the ground if somebody was the same sex of you. I mean, it was just so ridiculous.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:34
Are you serious?
Dame Kelly Holmes 17:35
Okay, you know what I mean? There's a time when no one even knew who they weren't seeing people, no one knew if they were gay or weren't gay, you didn't have those conversations. It was just so ridiculous thinking back on it. But there became a time when I was 22 and you talk about the raid. So what happened then is that we got this tip off. Now, I'm a corporal in the military. I was in charge of the gymnasium. I was in charge of potential officers fitness. It was an army school of languages. So as a charge of people around the world, I had a really responsible job. And what happened was is that the military police had come into our barracks and you kind of everyone gets tipped off on anything that happens. Let's face it, that this raid was happening. Now, what I didn't know and I've got to know now that in the era of sort of 92, 93, 94, it was a witch hunt, there basically was a witch hunt to kind of eradicate anybody that might have been of this demise. And that came, of course, from the top in an organization.
This came from a top. So this definitely would have been the white male, dominant kind of got to be seen to be in control type effect. And the law obviously being in place allowed them to get away with some of the things that they did get away with, which were not conducive to what the law was.So they came onto our barracks, for example, my thing where my fears started from the identity point of view was that let's imagine anyone listening, not being at home now, going home and the burglars are in your house. They're ripping through every single belonging, but they're not going and whatever they think they've got on you, which is completely unfounded in terms of got anything to, you know, it's not going to hurt anyone. They're vilifying you. They're kind of asking you really intense and personal questions that you just think, what are you doing? Like, you know, you just feel sort of so afraid. And I was afraid of losing my job.
I loved my job. I absolutely loved it. I wanted to be in the army since I was 14. So you kind of just are there complying to this he knew a sort of ad. And then when all that happened, you know, I used to have to hide even letters from my sister of my best mate. I mean, it wasn't even going out with anyone then, you know, this is the best mate in the back of a car just because it had lovely... Now I think about it, I think it's ridiculous. But what happened was, and during the documentary, I got to know about other military personnel who were terrorized in terms of sexual abuse, verbal abuse, jailed in some senses, long service medals being taken away from them, sent home to tell their parents that they were getting kicked out of the army, having their record book, having read writing across the top, saying being disappointed. Being dismissed with disgrace.
I mean, it was ridiculous what's happened. And so that's the kind of clutch of the question was the fear that that instilled me as a young person, I never went away. And we'll come to that in a minute.But finding out about these other situations that we now know happened to thousands of military personnel, those that have even fought on the front line. You know, those that had got to high rank in offices, being dismissed with disgrace, because they may have or may not have been attracted even to somebody. And so when you think about all of that and how that's gone in that lifetime, there's so many people living their life to this day who might be in their sixties or seventies that have gone through that innate kind of hurt and anger and mental health issues because of what happened to them serving their country. Now that for me was something I wanted to explore during the documentary. I'm pleased to say that there's a lot of grounds being made. It's actually now more of an issue if you are known to be homophobic or racist or whatever. So actually the tables have turned for the right reason. But you can imagine for me what happened then. The actual issue was that I was also became a world class athlete when I talked about being gay. So I had the two sides of me thinking how am I ever going to live my life authentically?
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:56
Exactly. And the world looking at you at that point as well, it's not just what was going on in the military and what you described. It's like being stripped of all but your humanity. It's like you're treated as an object. And you do talk about that as well in terms of that trauma and how you sort of almost felt like you were a commodity to the military, to your country for your sporting achievements. And yet, and I could feel when you say that you didn't understand what value you had outside of what you were offering them as a person. That was hard to read.
Dame Kelly Holmes 22:33
Yeah. I think there's a point where everything I ever wanted to do was to achieve my ultimate goal since I was 14. Like I literally wanted to be in the army as a physical training instructor. And I wanted to be Olympic champion. And that came from such a deep, deep and rooted need to be somebody like literally believe I could be it. And I'm not religious, but maybe I'm a bit spiritual. I just feel like I'm here for a reason. I don't know. Sometimes I think I know why. And sometimes I think I'm still on that journey of becoming the person. And it's really weird because I've achieved so much. But I think when you put your mindset into it's about high performance achievement to almost blur the insecurities that you have as a person, you jump in with both feet.
And so anyone that attacks or something that then comes up to potentially stop you doing that is like it rips you. It feels like it rips you apart because you think, what else have I got? I've got nothing else because my mindset is telling me this is who I am. And so with the military side of it, I didn't want somebody else's opinion to rip me apart when actually I know I worked so hard to be the best PTI I could be. I was like literally I, you know, any feedback, any reports, anything, you know, I went through the ranks quicker than other people because I knew I put 100% into being in that role. Then when I, because I was a junior international athlete before I went into the military and I, you know, achieved a really great level as a junior. But that wasn't a career back then. So going into the army was about a career, but I still have the talent that was untapped. And I knew that, I still believed I would be an Olympic champion.
So when I was sort of managing coming into the full process of, actually, you know what, my other dream, I really want that. I'm a soldier who doesn't want to lose a career. And I'm also a person that wants to achieve something that maybe no other people hadn't had within their psyche to be an Olympic champion. So I was coupling two really big processes about I want to be the best in my career and I'm a soldier and I'm hard and I want to be the best athlete and stand on top of a podium. And they're sort of not things that everyday people have necessarily as this kind of, I've got to do this at such a high level. So when I came into athletics, but coupled with the military, I used to maintain the fact that I want to be a really good soldier first and foremost. Hence why I used to lose my leave to go away and compete as an athlete so that the credibility of me as a person stayed really high. And it would negate any other negative that could have come if, you know, went to sexuality because I didn't have to have that all the time.
That was just very much a, you learn a language, you live your life, you do a job well, and only sometimes it was that compromised with the raid or whatever. The rest of the time is about I'm a good PTI and I'm going to get as far as I can. When I went into athletics, they're seeing this person who was doing extraordinary things with the military badge upon them. So of course they were proud of me in that sense. But world class athletics, there was not anyone out in world class sport back then. The only person, but I didn't know tennis because I was a soldier, you know what I mean? And I didn't know American sports people at the time, was Navratilova Billie Jean King. You know, I mean, they weren't part of our psyche back then unless you were into tennis. So they weren't sort of my psyche that anyone was. So as far as I was concerned, no one else was out or open. So when I left the army at 30, I was already a world class athlete, multi-medalist, number one in the world multiple times. And again, even with the ban being lifted, which I didn't really think about at the time because I'm now into my sport, it was all, well, I can't come out now. So every part of my journey is well, well, now I can't come out. Now I can't say anything because what if, what if, what if? So I lived the next part of my life, the first part being what if, and the next part being what if, what if somebody finds out what if? And that's the sort of psyche that I end up having all my life.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:57
Is that I've achieved so much now, could this come crashing down on me if I own who I am and the world knows who I am really. And that was possibly one of the most painful points in your book where you're just like, I don't know. Like, even though the ban has been lifted, I now know it's now legal, but will they still strip me? Will the world look at me and go, she's been faking it all this time. She's been hiding who she is. She's not really who we thought she was. Would it take away from all your achievements and that questioning?
Dame Kelly Holmes 27:27
Yeah. And they're the sort of irrational things that you end up fearing because you're just worried about people's opinions, which I was always worried about people's opinions and the judgment. And I felt like I won my two gold medals and put up on a pedestal. The first woman ever in Great Britain to do that. And because society back then wasn't like it is now on this conversation, I didn't want my achievements to be diminished by people's arrogant, and almost illiterate thought process that actually my sexuality would override what I did. And I thought that was what it would be like back then. And possibly it could have been. And I sort of thought that the army, I could still be in trouble because now I've admitted I'm against law, you know what I mean? So I just led that in my life.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:15
Hi, I hope you're enjoying this special episode of Why Care? I wanted to let you know that as we approach the end of season four, I'm now looking for guests to join me for season five. If you have a powerful diversity, equity and inclusion related story to share, are a thought leader in the space or maybe have written a book relevant to the field, drop me a line.I'm passionate about gathering different voices, using Why Care as a platform for storytelling, generating new ideas and stimulating new discussion. Most importantly, I hope these conversations contribute towards a changing mindset and more inclusive behaviors, both in the workplace and in society more generally. DM me on LinkedIn or Insta at Nadia Nagamootoo to contribute towards this purpose as a guest on the show. Back to the episode.
So what changed? Like, I mean, I love this story that you shared, 2022 London Pride. And that just sounded like such a powerful moment for you as you sort of went on this parade with your ITV presenters, your fellow colleagues. And you say it was such a positive atmosphere. And for the first time, I felt that my uniqueness was what made me belong, not what made me different. Maybe you can expound a little bit on that, because I loved that. That sentence, beautiful.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:34
Yeah, I think what it was, because I was always afraid to show myself and me, my personality, just sort of, I always had this block. You know, I'd have conversation with people, but be very functional around my job or my role or my titles and all of that. There was no ever any personal interaction and fun side of me because I felt people would get too close. So I kind of had a way of having a real conscious second-guess conversation with everybody. And I was very careful with how I projected myself and what I spoke about. Like, I would never even have, you know, even leading up to 2022, and even though society had changed, any corporate that were doing, I don't know, Pride month or something, you're not seeing me with anything rainbow, no badge, no nothing. Because the moment I had put that connection together, in my eyes, the questions would have come out. So I'm so detached from it and not an obvious way at all. I just wouldn't go there.I wouldn't talk about it. I wouldn't do any of diversity inclusion talks. And I've been a speaker, motivational speaker now for, I don't know, a few years.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:43
You couldn't even demonstrate allyship. You couldn't, you just had to properly detach yourself because, oh my goodness.
Dame Kelly Holmes 30:49
I had to really detach myself. And the weird thing is, is that I actually didn't know anyone else that was gay. I didn't know anyone in business. I didn't know anyone in sport. I didn't know anyone in society. I just must have put myself in such a cage that I didn't see it. Like, I am so shocked when I go to the EDAs or to Attitude or to Diva Ward. I'm like, how did I not know these people existed? Seriously, I also had no idea. I went to Attitude Awards and I was going off piece a bit, but I went to the Attitude Awards. I see all these high profile people there. And then I find out about their background or who they are and I'm like, how did I not know? This is, where have I been? Where have I been all my life?
It was just weird. And so when I went to Pride, I mean, I was super scared of going to Pride. Like, the fact is that I'd already now alluded to the fact I was gay.I mean, so it was easier to now be there. But I didn't know how I was going to feel about being submersed in that world as well because I'd been so far detached. Now, I know there's an element of people that go, well, of course we knew you were. Of course we thought you are. Why didn't you come out earlier? But you don't know my story. And it became some of the bits that I was listening to thinking, where now I have this whole thought process of there's so many people like me out there that is petrified for whatever reason of really showing their truth. Because you do have an element of people, so the community, they expect you to be a voice for people when you're in the public eye. But if you have a life like I did, that's not a normal and natural thing to suddenly do. And so you're batting against people very proud of you and so happy for you, to people questioning your reasons for not doing it in the first place without actually understanding people. And this is where I'd say the only way we can ever get to understand people is to communicate more effectively, to talk and be open and honest and to give people a chance. Because if you suddenly put your narrative to somebody else, you have no idea what they've gone through and what they're doing.
And so when I turn up to Pride, I almost had part of me being so like, oh, this is just like, wow, what is this? And part of me thinking, no, what do people think? And they're thinking I lied or I never lied.I just didn't tell you. And you end up almost answering questions in your head of what might come to you before it does.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:23
Yeah. And so, I mean, I can totally see how you would just spiral, particularly because you are the pride of Britain in many ways, and how can those people's expectations, their perceptions of you, how might that change. There's risk there, right? And of course, that's where the fear comes from. So there's risk, there's fear of how it will be received, what the repercussions will be. But I got a real sense in the book in that moment that you just felt it was right to be there.
Dame Kelly Holmes 33:53
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I had such a wonderful time. And I got the chance to stand on stage and kind of say those few words. And it felt really empowering being there. And it felt amazing to be able just to be my authentic self. But with the knowledge that people also knew about my achievements, because I felt, for me, those two couples were then the next platform for me to have a voice for change.Because I realized that when you are in a position where people put you on a pedestal and then you take a risk that actually is to be a strong advocate and voice, and yet they respect you in this world, I felt at that moment that that balance became more even. It wasn't about, oh, you know, she hasn't been supporting us anymore. It was about, right now, we've got somebody else within our community that can be a real strong voice. And that's the area I've got, regardless of I don't see all the negative stuff because people that follow me are following me because they like me. So that's the thing, you know, if they're not following me and they're saying things, I can't control that. And I've learned that over the past year. And I have to say that, you know, even from pride and then the whole year of coming out, it wasn't that everything was rosy because I didn't know how to change my narrative. I was still worried, like sometimes I was going, oh, I can say this now. You know what I mean? Like, instead of all the second guess, changing the way you are with people and agreeing to go for a coffee or saying you're going away with your partner, your girlfriend, or say, there was all every conversation that I had with people that had not known about me before and I knew was so different to what I'd had all my life. Like, I could just sit in a room and somebody asked me, I know, have I got a partner? I'd say yes.
Whereas before, you're not even going to get to asking me that question because I'm not sitting there long enough to have that conversation with you. And there was enough in my story that I realized in my life to have a connection with someone. So where I would go to work and be a motivational speaker, I can talk about my upbringing. Being in a care home for the first few years of my life, my mixed-race background, I can talk about being in my culture and my environment. I can speak about being in the army and it ticks off the boxes with the men in my audience because as soon as I say I was a soldier, they're like, yeah, oh, you know. And I was like, you know.And then I had enough to say with my mental health part of it, the effects of my sport and everything without even going to the other parts of why my mental health deteriorated. I can say about being the first athlete or sports person to come out saying they'd had a depression and a breakdown. There was enough in my story to not even go here with my sexuality. And that's what I not hid behind, but knew was my safety point.
That in any, I've had so many interviews, so many things, they didn't have to go there because it wasn't a factor in why they had me. I had all these titles, I’m a Dame, I’m a Colonel, I didn't have to have that.But by not having that, didn't give all of me. It's not about everyone needing to know I'm gay because realistically, they shouldn't need to know that. And the way that society is, the freedom of just living your life and having normal conversation, people underestimate. And they underestimate it from a point of simple things where most people go, oh, I'm going away with my husband and my wife and we're going to holiday. And I go, oh, I'm going away with, you know, it's four of us going and...And it's in your manner. Yeah, me mates.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:42
You're totally right. People underestimate the cognitive load.In psychology, that's what we call it. There's a cognitive load that you're constantly, every minute of your waking hours, you are conscious of what you're saying, the language you're using, what people might read into it. And of course, you grew up at the point of recognising who you were, firmly in 18 or 19 or whenever it was.You learnt, you learnt how to control your language, control your narrative if you say. That takes a lot of unlearning. It's so inspiring.
Dame Kelly Holmes 38:18
Yeah, it did. It really took a while to feel comfortable with normal, and I say this as normal conversation. Every day, normal life, what are you doing? Who are you going over? Where are you going? Who are you going under? Just the normality of life. That conversation, even though when I came out in June 22, I reckon it took me at least a year to feel comfortable with that. I was doing it and I was proud, but to feel really settled with, look, say what you want and don't worry what better people think, that has taken a long time because I've always worried about judgement, always worried about what people's opinions, always worried about what people think of me, and I've always done the do-good thing, like the charity and this, because actually I'm an alright person, I'm a decent person, but I always wanted them to see that anyway so that they wouldn't think bad of anything else. Oh, it was exhausting, to be honest, exhausting for my whole life.
Nadia Nagamootoo 39:20
That's the word I would use. It just sounds exhausting. And I'm so genuinely thrilled, pleased, so happy for you to know that you're in a very different place now.And we're coming to the end of our conversation and I can't not speak to you about this 20-year anniversary of double gold. Now, I mean, 20 years, where did that go? That's the question, but that's not what I'm going to ask you. That makes me feel old. You do celebrate, because I know you've got a charity, obviously the Dame Kelly Homes Trust, you're doing a trek in Peru, I know you've got something called a Champions Ball, maybe you could quickly share what you're doing.
Dame Kelly Holmes 40:01
Yeah, so obviously 20-year anniversary, and I just feel like out of those who we talk about, I just feel so relieved. In this year, we always have milestones of years, but 20 years for some reason, especially in the Olympic year, just feels so powerful. I'm just so pleased.I can literally be my absolute true, authentic self with no worries whatsoever, and I can embrace the power of our voices as women for one, and I'm going to do whatever I can to amplify the need of true, honest conversation about life and how it affects people in bad and good ways and amplify my voice, especially for the community. I'm not afraid to say whatever I need to say now to support the community out there in the real world, but equally in this year, I kind of feel like, yeah, it's time now to shout about things I've done that I just let them roll on. So my charity has started 16 years ago.
We've had so many disadvantaged young people from heirs of deprivation utilizing the skill set of other sporting champions for them to have a competence and self-belief to become somebody. We've got my first ever proper fundraiser, so it's a champions ball, which is almost like a testimonial for my 20-year anniversary, but also sort of a fundraiser for my charity, and that's going to be just a special time, and that's in May. And then I've always wanted to go to Peru because I love the spiritual side of the Inca Trail and things. I've never had time. Never been able to fit it in. And I thought, do you know what? This year, I'm going to do it. So we're going in September. So if anyone wants to look out, follow Dame Kelly Holmes Trust or me on Dame Kelly Holmes on Instagram, but doing this trek.And just really want to embrace that moment of, this is sort of a liberation for me towards the end of the year. I've really come into myself, and I'm going to sit on top of that mountain and go, I did it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:05
Oh, my goodness. I will be with you, following you on your socials. I have to highly recommend following Kelly on socials because what you put out there is so powerful and it is so truly you. And that's what I appreciate because he's so much out there on socials. When I watch you and I hear you on Insta, I'm really looking forward to seeing you on that journey and stand at the top and yell at the top of your voice or whatever you want to do at the top because you should celebrate. Being you.
Dame Kelly Holmes 42:38
Definitely.
Nadia Nagamootoo (42:38 - 42:55)
Being the fabulous you. Thank you so much, Kelly. I can't thank you enough for this time. I know you have a huge amount going on and I'm excited for you and I'm just thrilled for everything that you're doing and everything that's going to happen in 2024 for you. Thank you for joining me.
Dame Kelly Holmes 42:55
And thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. It's nice to be able to just have that sort of authentic talk and be able to be in a position to do it, to be honest. So, thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Dame Kelly Holmes Nadia Nagamootoo 43:07
Everything that Kelly and I spoke about today is going to be available on the usual place, avenirconsultingservices.com under podcasts. Gosh, what a pleasure. What an honor.So inspiring, Kelly. And just be well, be happy, be you. Thank you.
That concludes this special Why Care episode. I can't get over the stories Kelly shared of the witch hunt in the military and the ridiculous rules. So grateful times have changed but also aware of the constant challenges faced by people in the LGBTQ plus community. Kelly's story is inspiring and I know makes such a difference to those who have shared a similar path and still remain fearful of expressing who they really are. Thank you so much, Kelly, for your courage to help create a better, more inclusive world. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family.
Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Jenny Lynton for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
