Why Care?#36: Sheree Atcheson - Demanding More
“The other problem that we have is that people disregard the nuances of, in this case, women. And one of my Forbes pieces that I wrote, which is called Women are not a Monolith, and we must stop treating them as such. And it's so important because we cannot, under any circumstances, think that we're under the blanket of women, that all women are treated equally, and that white women and black women, the asian women are treated the same, that our experiences are all the same. What about disability? What about neurodiversity? What about work or financial background and socio-economic background? All of those things change the access to opportunities that women have in this scenario.”
In Episode 36, Sheree Atcheson, Global DEI Senior Executive at Valtech, joins me to speak about her book, Demanding More. We explore the concept of white saviourism and white feminism, and how we can all benefit from DEI. We touch on topics such as privilege, intersectional allyship, strategy and processes, inclusive technology, and growth opportunities.
Sheree’s DEI career has spanned for over a decade, as a consultant, keynote speaker, published author, advisory board member and a Forbes contributor. In 2013, she launched and led the award-winning UK expansion of Women Who Code, the world's largest non-profit globally dedicated to women in tech. She is listed as one of the UK’s Top Most Influential Women in Tech and an international multi-award winner for her D&I services. Her goal is to raise awareness of the incredible prospects available in the industry, to ensure everyone benefits from this and reaches their full potential, creating an equitable environment.
Sheree speaks about her intentions behind Demanding More, which was to create a book that is easily accessible and digestible by all, and that is helpful in pushing people to stand up and ask for more in a way that is purposeful and sustainable. She describes her experience of being born in Sri Lanka and adopted by a white family; her feelings of being the ‘only’, the intense racism she faced, and how she had to fight for equal treatment in her schools. She breaks down white saviourism - the act of helping others just to elevate yourself and your reputation, and the role that it played in her adoption. As she explains, making a difference starts by shifting the focus from ‘you’ to ‘them’, instead of what will I gain from this, it should be on how others can benefit from this. Lastly, she discusses six core DEI themes:
- Privilege – She explains that the problem here is insecurity, which pushes some to deny others the same access to opportunities that they have. Those in the majority might feel conflicted about embracing diversity, as they find themselves asking whether their success is dependent on their merits or their positions, or, whether their failure is dependent on their lack of talent or on someone’s else opportunities.
- Intersectionality – The key thing here is awareness, and this can be done through observing data and listening to stories. Lack of inclusion can lead to people being attacked, and in some instances, murdered, and companies should take this as seriously as any other safety issue, and should discuss and share this openly with their employees.
- White Feminism – The highest or most privileged groups of women are often prioritised in DEI strategies because those in leadership positions can relate and identify with them. So, DEI strategies end up being exclusionary rather than inclusive, as they neglect the intersectional identities women have.
- Strategy and Processes – Sheree explains that preparation is key, it is about doing things proactively not reactively. When looking at representation, use Agile (rather than Waterfall) methodology, listen, learn, and conduct research. Skill is also very important and not just passion, passion can lead to people developing strategies that answer their problems or they can relate to, when in fact, what is needed is something that everyone can relate to.
- Inclusive Technology – The issue with using AI to de-bias different processes is that humans are the ones creating the software, so there is room for error. The fast-paced nature of the tech industry makes it difficult to rigorously test it out and to see the impact it has on everyone in society.
- Growth Opportunities – Sharing growth opportunities and creating sponsor frameworks is very important. What works best in organisations is when everyone can focus on what they are best at, not a position they’ve gotten due to their service, loyalty, networking, or background, but based on their skills. Leaders should give people space to learn from their mistakes and support them through this.
Links:
Sheree can be found on:
- Book
- Website
For more from Women Who Code, you can visit their website at: https://www.womenwhocode.com/
Transcript
Sheree Atcheson 00:00
Arguably many people would think, when you hear about the Suffragettes, there are adverts utilizing their backgrounds on the TV all the time, from DNA ads and everything else. They are very well known. Most people when you would say the Suffragettes would at least know something about them or what they've done but arguably will probably not know about Black Women being left behind, about Black Women not having the vote when White Women did, and then being diametrically opposed by many of the leading suffragettes as well. What I think is so important about this, and in that example is that we share those stories but yes, we can recognize that the advancement of White Women in this scenario was historic, that getting White Women the vote was phenomenal. But that doesn't mean we also can’t recognize that there was racism involved, Black Women were left behind as well, and that Sojourner Truth was the person who pushed to help Black Women get the vote. So, I think it's so important that we don't lose the nuance of stories.
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:53
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, Coach, Speaker and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom-line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries, who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we've become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to Episode 36 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. I've been wanting to speak to Sheree Atcheson for some time. And so, for me, this is truly a pleasure to have her on the show. Sheree is a global diversity and inclusion senior executive currently working at Valtech and previously at Deloitte, Monzo and Peakon. She is listed as one of the UK's top-most influential women in Tech, and an international multi-award winner for her services to diversity and inclusion in the industry. She sits on the advisory board for Women Who Code and is also a Forbes contributor. We delve deeply into Sheree’s book, Demanding More, which explains how deliberate exclusion plays out in our society, and how we all need to demand more of the system in order to create inclusion. We discussed White saviourism, and White feminism and had a fascinating conversation about The Suffragette, intersectionality, and the common pitfalls organisations make in creating Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion strategies. And I get Sheree’s views on the recent US Supreme Court ruling against race-based selection. Sheree also offers her advice on the two most effective ways we should demand more of organisations. Enjoy.
I am incredibly excited to speak to you, Sheree, thank you so much for joining me on Why Care.
Sheree Atcheson 03:38
Of course, thank you for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:40
Well, I've followed you. And I continue to be completely inspired by your work, by everything that you do in the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion space. I have loved reading your book, Demanding More. Thank you very much for sharing all that you have in this book, I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it yet. For those who don't know you, as well as I do. Would you be able to share a little bit more about your background, and a bit about Demanding More and how you came to write it?
Sheree Atcheson 04:14
Yeah, of course. So, I'm Sheree, and I've been doing senior diversity and inclusion leadership for over 12 years now. And I've held lots of different roles, particularly in technology companies. I started my career as an engineer working on high-profile public-sector projects, mostly in the UK at that stage. Then I started moving into diversity and inclusion work because for obvious reasons, there weren't very many women on my team and certainly very much else diversity when it came to engineering. At that stage, I wanted to do something different, but I didn't like reinventing the wheel. I don't like repeating myself. I don't like doing things if someone else has already done them, I can amplify that instead of doing something just so it has my name on it. And I found Women Who Code. Women Who Code at that stage was a small global non-profit, but primarily just focusing in San Francisco, and in India, where they had around two and a half to 3000 global members. But what they did was they ran free monthly meetups and free monthly events on the specialities that were being hired in the areas where people lived and worked. So, their goal was really to bring people together to give them the skills they needed and to do that all for free. The free part was something that was very important to me because of my own background growing up very, very poor. And instead of creating something new, creating a new community, I spent a lot of time talking to the CEO of Women Who Code, understanding that actually it hadn't been branched across Europe at that stage. It hadn't been branched across the UK. And I was a fresh-faced graduate then, in Belfast, in the north of Ireland where I was working. And I branched it over to Belfast, we had a great response, we had a really big impact of bringing women together, learning the skills they needed to create those networks. We then branched to London, Bristol, Edinburgh, down to Dublin, and then across Europe as well.
I sit on the board now for that non-profit. From there, I was doing essentially two jobs at once, I was being an engineer, and I was also doing D&I consultancy with a lot of organizations at the same time for Women Who Code, helping them build communities, implement training, and so on. And I got to a point in my career, where I was doing two jobs, and only one of them was what I really cared about. And engineering wasn't that one. So, I made a pivot, and the rest is history. Now where I'm at, I started to write Demanding More in March 2020, which was not a great time for anybody in the world. I had a publisher reach out to me, who was interested in me writing a book because they read my pieces in Forbes, The Guardian and Computer Weekly. The reason I said yes was I was really fed up with diversity and inclusion books that focused only on 9 to 5. So how do we do D&I from a 9 to 5 perspective, without recognizing that embedding diversity and fostering inclusion, that's how you live your life? You have to make life changes to change how we really interact in different ways. The other thing I really didn't like was that a lot of books used words, phrases and terms that everyday people may not understand unless they were in the field. I don't like that because I feel like that's almost excluding people. I wanted to write a book that my 66-year-old White Irish dad would be able to lift up and get something from. No, he's not in the industry. No, he's not in business but he could definitely get something about what he could do better as well. And that's why I wrote it. That's why when I wrote it, I guess it shoots from the hip, it's very straight-talking. It's very in the way I speak as well. And I'm really proud of Demanding More, and it’s hopefully helping and changing how people do things, and helping them just literally demand more, stand up, and ask for more in a way that feels purposeful and sustainable at the same time.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:03
Yeah. And it is all of that, as I'm reading, I can hear you speaking. And I love that about the book, the storytelling, it was very personal in what you offered about yourself. There was a lot of humility there actually, in your personal story of being adopted by White Irish parents. Can you talk a little bit more about your personal story?
Sheree Atcheson 08:26
Yeah, of course. So, I was adopted at three weeks old, from Sri Lanka, by two White working-class Irish people. My parents couldn't have their own kids, they spent a lot of years trying IVF and stuff like that. And so, they decided they wanted to adopt kids and so adopted me and my brother, It took around seven years at the time, for the process to finish. And if you think about it, whenever my parents told me that at the start, I was sort of shocked but then I realized back then you can't just send an email to the other side of the world. You have to send everything on paper. So, it's all very stagnant when you do a process like that anyway. But I was raised in the North of Ireland, in a place called County Tyrone. Where I grew up is primarily farming land and agricultural, so it's very rural, it's not very diverse, but it's certainly more diverse now because of immigration and people moving in. But in the ‘90s, where I grew up, there weren't any other people of colour that me or my brother knew except for each other. So, a lot of people speak about and understand being the only one, whether that's in your boardroom, whether that's in your team, etc. And I understand all of that as well. But being the only one in your town or your friend circle, in your school and so on, gives you a very different perspective on what that means. You're acutely aware of the difference that you have because it's glaringly obvious. We went to school with a sea of White faces, and then our two faces which were South Asian, and we faced quite a lot of racism growing up, quite a lot of intense racism for sure. A lot of sorts of fighting with schools to make sure that they had appropriate safeguarding measures and stuff for us.
I always describe myself as both underrepresented and privileged, two things can be true at once. My parents were very poor, so they were working class. They ended up both disabled, so were on disability benefits, and me and my brother were on free school meals. But because of that background that I have, being from a poor background, I was able to get grants and bursaries, to be the first Atcheson to go to university, to be the first person to do that. And to then, sort of, carve a life for myself. That access to opportunity is what a lot of my work is about, whilst I'm very underrepresented and underprivileged in Ireland, there have still been access points to opportunities that I've been able to grab and take hold of, such as, to go to university, to now be able to create generational wealth in my family that didn't exist until me. And the conversation is balanced because I always say, as a senior woman of colour in the industry, I'm underrepresented, but as a senior woman of colour in the industry, I'm also very privileged because I'm listened to. People listen when I speak now because of the seniority I have and because of the credibility that I’ve had. And of course, I’ve worked hard for that. But there’s also been luck that’s played into that too. You know, nobody is ever successful, in my view, without some luck playing into part because there are lots of people that work really, really hard and they never get the success that they may want to achieve. Because sometimes luck and privilege make a difference and that’s where my privilege comes in. One of the things I am acutely aware of is the conversation on what underrepresented or underprivileged means from a global perspective. So, I've been back to Sri Lanka, I found my biological family and so on…
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:46
I saw that. How incredible…
Sheree Atcheson 11:50
It was definitely an experience. It's eye-opening. I mean, I've always been acutely aware of being adopted, my parents were always very open with me. My dad had always shared the photos and stuff that he had of him and my birth mother, but being aware of something and then seeing something in real life are two different things. And you become very aware of the very different life that you would have had, had you not been put up for adoption. So, I'm very grateful for that too. But again, when I talk about those access to opportunities, that split decision or that one decision that that woman made has given me access to all of these opportunities where I can have financial stability. Now, I have a partner I can comfortably talk about, I have my own house, and I have all of these things that I don’t have to worry about now. And that’s where you’ll have seen in Demanding More, the conversation on privilege is so nuanced that it isn't ones and zeroes, it's very grayscale, and in order to really move that conversation on, I think it's important to have those conversations. And that's why in Demanding More, I shared all of that because I think it's very hard for people to visualize something without something to really bring it to life and the nuances and complexities of my story, I think helped to do that in some ways.
Nadia Nagamootoo 13:00
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is so much of you in this book and the storytelling is incredibly powerful. One of the things that you reflect on in the book is around White Saviourism. And it's interesting as well, because if we think about just in general, in the UK, certainly more Western societies, there are charities doing good work to support people in other parts of the world. Like just thinking about in the UK, we have something called Red Nose Day where it's everyone chips in as much as they can, raising money for those who need it, typically in Africa. And it made me think especially as you've just been speaking about your own sort of White Irish parents and that act that they offered to you and your brother, to bring you both into their family. Where's the line between White saviourism which is self-serving versus what the charities are presumably trying to do, which is to create some support system for those who need it?
Sheree Atcheson 14:15
I think what's really important is the reasons and how you do these kinds of things. Are you trying to help people elevate yourself, to show yourself as someone who is doing good deeds, to help people who are more underprivileged or underserved than you in a way, to not focus on the fact that they may need some help that you can offer, but more to focus on elevating yourself and your own reputation? Those are two very different things. If it's to be seen as someone who does great things for these poorer people in Sri Lanka or whatever else it might be, then that's White Saviourism. If it's to really sit down and think about how you can make a difference, whether that's actively helping to send money directly to different communities, adoption and so on. I think it's really, really nuanced. But I think you have to really sit with yourself about why that is. I would say certainly my dad really wanted to have kids and saw no other way of doing that. And I always regret, he passed away not that long ago, a few years ago, [Nadia: I'm sorry to hear that]. And I always say I was like, I wish I had asked him why he didn't adopt White Irish kids. You know, what was the reason? I knew that the connection they made to Sri Lanka was because one of the nurses that they were doing IVF with had also adopted kids from Sri Lanka. So, they made a connection in that way.
I think it's a really big question. Certainly, my mother did have elements of White Saviourism, the way she spoke, the way she behaved and so on. It was very obvious that it was about doing this great deed, I did this great thing, I went to this country and saved these two brown babies but I never had that from my father. So, I think there's so much nuance in adoption. I also have a friend who's also been adopted from Sri Lanka, you actually might have seen her, she had a very different experience with her family, in that they've spent time I think really embracing the culture and learning about it. Whereas I didn't really learn anything, which I also think is a decision to be made. But I think in my case, it was made out of ignorance, in that there was no real thought behind it, as opposed to, we decided not to. And I think that's where when it comes to adoption and so on, you really have to think about what that means or what that child will face. You know, you bring a brown child to a very white space, like the North of Ireland in the 90s, you must recognize that they're going to face racism. And in my case, that probably wasn't even really a consideration, which is very naive and very silly. But again, and it's what I say in the book as well, even with that consideration and there are questions I don't have answers to, there's still gratefulness for that access to opportunity because I would not have the life I have now had I have been in Sri Lanka. I have two half-siblings there and we live very different lives, obviously.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:55
It's very complicated. Yeah, but I get it. I get what you're saying that it depends on the reasoning of what that person is thinking, the reason why they're doing something. Now, thinking about this concept of intersectionality, which you've sort of touched on a little bit already. I was quite struck when I read a particular part of your book which highlights some statistics around the extreme violence towards Trans people, specifically Black Trans Women. I was trying to imagine, given the statistics of the violent attacks, how Black Trans Women might feel just walking down the street every single day. And so, now I know you don't have a solution necessarily for how we get through this and create a safer world. But what do you think the work is that organizations can do? So, I get it societally there's a lot of work as well. But what are organisation's role in supporting this particular niche group of people?
Sheree Atcheson 18:03
I think when supporting any group of people that intersect all of those different identities, the key thing is awareness. Firstly, most people, arguably at the moment would understand whether they are against or for the support of trans rights would understand that trans rights are in the news a lot at the moment. They understand that something is going on at the moment around either the lack of support for their view or the support of their view. But certainly, from my perspective, it would be the eradication of trans rights and certainly across the States, across the UK and so on. And I think when you're in that position, if you're trying to help people move forward with supporting different communities, you have to tell stories and you have to share the data like I did in the book. And one of the things with data like this is that it doesn't lie, data that is provided in those ways does not lie, and ones and zeros in that way, are not false. So, it's really clear that you have clear views that are supported by facts when it comes to how we advance the conversation because all too often when it comes to having conversations in very small groups like this, people can't relate or understand because maybe they need to have a personal connection to something to really care about it. But certainly, if you hear statistics, like the ones I've shared in that book, you should not need a connection to someone to care about the fact that they're being victimized, that they have higher death rates, higher mortality rates, murder rates, and so on as well.
What companies need to do is they need to share those stories, they need to start talking about it in a very open way. All too often companies are too soft with how they speak about this when they're talking about, for example, supporting Trans rights or Black Trans Women and so on. But what you really need to be talking about is the safety here. Lack of inclusion doesn't just lead to someone not feeling like they bring their whole self to work, it leads to someone potentially being attacked or murdered. So, we're not talking about what some people might call soft things. We're talking about a very real life-and-death scenario. But if we don't have those very hard-hitting far-reaching conversations, we lose the fact that this is so important. And I always think at the end of the day, we're not going to reach everyone, there are going to be people that don't get this. They don't want to get it, they're diametrically opposed, and so on. What I try and get organizations to do is to focus on the majority of people who are willing to at least listen and learn and then move forward with what they can. But it has to start with telling stories, sharing data, and sharing real examples for people to start to understand what's happening outside of their own bubble.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:32
It does feel like people need support to understand what's happening outside of their own bubble, that the organization needs to actively create space for that, but also that the organization, so senior leaders in particular, role model how to have those sorts of conversations. This is because we're entering a space where people feel uncomfortable talking about things, and people don't want to acknowledge how challenging it is for Trans people, especially if they don't know anyone who is Trans. Yes, it's easy to shut down to the reality, which again is the power of the statistics that you've been speaking about. If organizations can bring that conversation with the data and role model how to have those conversations, there’s the education piece, but there's also that dialling up of the perspective-taking and empathy piece, isn't there?
Sheree Atcheson 21:27
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's easier for people to know what to do if they see someone else doing it, that's just one-on-one with anything. Arguably, for the most part in companies, people pay attention to leadership the most, for obvious reasons. So, it's really important that with that privilege and that power, you do something with it. I think that's incredibly important.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:44
Yeah. Another area that you touched upon around intersectionality in your book, which again made me stop and think, is around the concept of White feminism. And you offer an example of the Suffragettes who are very esteemed, and held in high regard for all of the positive work they did to shift society for women. And I think certainly, for me, it feels like for women in general, but in your book, you highlight that it wasn't women in general, they were racist, and Black Women were disregarded from the fight. Does White feminism play out in today's world? Do we see that or are we just oblivious to it?
Sheree Atcheson 22:35
I mean, I think we see it very, very regularly. We see it in corporate spaces where diversity and inclusion strategies only prioritize women who are white from heterosexual backgrounds, who are financially stable with no disabilities and so on. We see white feminism prioritized because it's one, from the perspective of most people in leadership are men who are white. And it's very easy to create a connection with, we need to have more women in leadership, and that must mean someone like me, white, etc. The other problem that we have is that people disregard the nuances of, in this case, women. And one of my Forbes pieces that I wrote, which is called Women Are Not A Monolith and We Must Stop Treating Them as Such, is so important because we cannot, under any circumstances think that we're under the blanket of women, that all women are treated equally, and that White, Black and Asian women are treated the same, that our experiences are all the same. What about disability? What about neurodiversity? What about financial background and socio-economic background? All those things change the access to opportunities that women have in this scenario. And with the Suffragettes example, the thing for me when I was researching, reading up and really understanding all about it was that yes, arguably many people would think, when you hear about the Suffragettes, there are adverts utilising their backgrounds on the TV all the time, from DNA ads, and everything else. They are very well known. And most people when you would say the suffragettes would at least know something about them or what they've done, but arguably will probably not know about Black women being left behind, about Black women not having the vote when White women did, and then being diametrically opposed by many of the leading suffragettes as well.
And what I think is so important about this and in that example is that we share those stories, but yes, we can recognize that the advancement of White women in this scenario was historic, that getting White women to vote was phenomenal. But that doesn't mean we also can’t recognize that there was racism involved and that Black women were left behind as well. And that Sojourner Truth was the person who pushed to help Black women get the vote. So, I think it's so important that we don't lose the nuance of stories. And I think we see White feminism a lot when we start to look at how people show up, for example, as feminists. When people are on TV and we start to talk about feminists without recognizing that, let's say they're having a conversation on feminism, and nobody there is of a different background other than being a woman and a White woman. When we forget that we create diversity and inclusion strategies and we leave race out of the equation or when we leave disability out of the equation, which is one of the things that's the most left out because people automatically tend to be drawn towards creating inclusion strategies that they directly identify with. Now, most people, as the research has shown us in D&I roles or HR roles are White women. And that's why we tend to see those other facets being left out because the strategies are created by people that they directly identify with. And the problem with that is, and I wrote about this in Demanding More as well, that we then have exclusionary inclusion, we include certain people, but other people, we don't actually care about you, you'll be fine, it doesn't matter. That's the problem. And with white feminism, where we see people prioritising the highest or the most privileged groups of women only, we leave behind so many people. And in this scenario, that's Black Women, which, arguably in a lot of scenarios is Black Women as well, which is rooted in racism.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:02
There's a lot of work to do there it sounds like when it comes to DEI strategy and how to create inclusive DEI strategies. It seems ridiculous in so many ways that you would have a diversity, equity inclusion strategy that isn't inclusive but I completely see how anything that's designed by a certain group of people, unless they have a significant amount of diversity between them, that there would be a particular lens that they see the world in and therefore there's something that they don't see, which is, of course, the experiences of people who aren't like them. So, what's the advice then, for organisations creating their DEI strategy? Is it just to get as much diversity around the table as possible?
Sheree Atcheson 26:49
I think that's one way but I also think that in many ways, there's no way to have everybody around the table. I don't think that's possible, it's not practical. And this is where when I wrote about this in Demanding More, like I've written about this a lot, I used the software engineering principles that I've used in my past life to create D&I strategies. In technology, as a developer, you are consistently gathering requirements of what the client wants and how their client is going to interface with that product. You will do a lot of user research using user personas of different kinds of people who will interact with the solution you're creating to see whether it will pass or fail and whether it meets the needs of all of these different people. And this is exactly the same as what I do with D&I strategies. I don't have every single representation around the table because one, it's not possible, and for the most part, it's not feasible either.
But what I can do is spend time listening, learning, doing user research and researching with different groups of people outside of my organisation, if they don't exist, to make sure that there are ‘user personas’, that allow people to understand and allows the teams that I have to understand who are we trying to really help with this? And why and how will this impact them? So, the questions really here are, you have to make sure that you're asking the questions proactively and not reactively. And that you're using Agile, which is that methodology of going around and around, we don't just create something and roll it out and it's finished, which is a waterfall model, most people don't create software like that now for the most part. But you use Agile, which continually iterates. So even if you realise something is wrong, you change it instead of waiting until everything is finished and then changing it. And that's where I think it's really important for D&I professionals to recognize that we don't know everything. Anyone who tells you they do is lying to you and probably charging too much. So, what's really important is to recognize that listening is a big part of this and gathering user research is a big part of this.
I also think it highlights that there's a big difference in doing D&I work, whether it's sort of entry-level right the way up to VP and Chief Diversity Officer like me, is that passion and skill set are two different things. Passion for DEI roles is great, but it tends to create very clouded judgment when you're deciding on what to focus on. Because if I'm personally passionate, just about, let's say, Asian women of colour, what about everybody else? And that's where skillset comes in. That's where you come in and you think about this from a business perspective, who are we trying to reach across the board? How does accessibility fit into this? And so on and then create a strategy. Very often, too many people create a strategy that directly answers the problems they face because they can relate to it. But actually, that's irrelevant. I don't need to just have a strategy that you relate to, I need to have a strategy that relates to all my employees, all the people I may want to work for in the organization as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:38
Yeah, completely resonates with me in terms of working with certain clients where they have seen, for example, the statistics show them that there's a real specific need around gender and so they just want a DEI strategy that focuses on gender. And for me, that's the best way to exclude certain people. It goes against all the principles of inclusion if you've just got a strategy that focuses on particular groups of people. And you've spoken there about your engineering background and I really appreciate how you brought in agile project management principles into DEI work. In one section of your book called Check Yourself, you talk about artificial intelligence, speech recognition software and how actually there is bias within artificial intelligence, there’s bias within speech recognition software, which for example might not be able to pick up atypical speech patterns. Okay, so that suggests to me where we might think that artificial intelligence and technology in general might support us in diversity, equity, and inclusion, particularly in de-biasing. Yeah, if you take out some of the human biases or subjectivity, you'd hope that we would build in more objectivity. However, it seems to me just like we've been talking about, that if a DEI strategy or if AI tool has been designed by specific people who are just seeing things through the lens of their own world, that's not going to help us at all with creating inclusion, right? So, what's the work that needs to be done to design for inclusion?
Sheree Atcheson 31:27
The problem that we have with using AI to debias processes or to replace human decisions and so on, is that if we make the assumption that everything that is utilising AI is automatically debiased in itself, we forget that at the end of the day, people have created that software. Now if we go back to what I said at the start, very often we create strategies and solutions without considering how they impact everyone proactively instead of reactively. We see huge technology companies, for example, rolling out voice notes or different tunes and so on, without considering, for example, disabled people who have different accessibility needs and then reactively trying to fix it. The problem that we have with AI is that if we cannot be sure the people creating it have been appropriately, ‘debiased themselves’. Everybody is biased, I'm biased, of course I am, everybody is but I spend a lot of time making sure the decisions I make are really well thought out before I choose yes or no on anything.
And I think what we have to do is when we ensure the engineers that are working on those things, the testers, the developers, the business owners, and so on, you have to be very careful that there is a rigorous process in place to create inclusive tech. This means as I said at the start, really rigorous testing around who this affects and how it affects them. What are the actual impacts? How does it work whenever the AI itself starts to learn different things? How does it learn and create connections based on the bias that is already there from all of us in society? And it's a big, big ask. This is not easy. And we can see that, AI is getting more and more prevalent. You know, we see photos every day where people have to ask now, is that real or is it not? Is this something that's actually happened or is it fake? I don't know anymore. And so, we have to be really careful with that. I personally really avoid using AI tools and stuff like that, because I'm not confident, certainly not right now anyway because it's still very early on, and it's being developed in a way that really embraces diversity and fosters inclusion. The other thing with the technology industry in these fast-moving industries is it obviously moves very fast. I’ve worked in start-ups, I've led start-ups, I know what that's like. But that means that there's a lot of room for error as well. There's a lot less time to take a break, take a breath and really decide, what am I doing now? How does it affect person, ABCD? And I'm not willing to take that risk.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:44
It seems to me that those organizations or companies that are developing AI tools really do need to take a step off the fast lane if that's possible. As you say, this is an incredibly fast-moving market, I get it, they need to be at the cutting edge. If they don't move quickly, they'll lose out to their competitors. There are lots of people wanting to get in on this market space. However, it's almost like they need to slow down to speed up.
Sheree Atcheson 34:11
Yeah, it has to be regulated in the same way that banks are regulated, there have to be regulations because it is going to cause real-life effects on people. And with that, you have to have a regulated industry, it can't just be rolling stuff out. It can't just be ABCDE, it has to be very carefully and concisely reviewed and so on. So again, that's where the role of government comes in. It’s very important.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:33
Yeah. Now I want to talk to you about something you speak about in your book which just so happens to be incredibly relevant to the time that we're now speaking. Okay. I'm going to quote you in your book when you’re talking about universities and you're talking about the privilege that comes with going to elite universities specifically. So, you say, “I want us to think of the barriers to accessing those kinds of universities, there are steep fees, but even steeper cultural and economic association barriers.” And so, you can see where I'm heading with this one, which is so recently, the US Supreme Court ruled against race-based affirmative action. And based on your quote, it seems that affirmative action is exactly what we need, given the disparities in cultural economic situations and the barriers to accessing these elite universities. And we know that those who go to those sorts of elite universities get access to the best jobs, right? They progress a lot faster. As soon as you see those elite universities on someone's CV or LinkedIn, automatically you assume the quality of the candidate. So very broad question. What's your take on the US Supreme Court ruling?
Sheree Atcheson 35:56
We live in a world, especially within the US, where everything is politicized to the extent that there are decisions made, that there are scenarios happening, that even if the best answer is in the middle or on the opposite side of what you think, people are too busy being on a one or zero side. And I grew up in the North of Ireland, okay, so people are not aware of the context of politics in the North of Ireland, I would really urge you to go and look it up. And there's also a really good BBC documentary on the civil war in Ireland that has just come out which kind of shows what that means, which is a slight tangent, but I know what it's like to grow up somewhere where you're a one or you're a zero, and that's it. And what I see in the US is a very similar mindset where decisions are made because of aligning with certain political leaders, even if the views are not necessarily what you agree with either. I think one, that's incredibly dangerous. And again, as someone who has grown up in a place like that, I can see how dangerous it is and how hard it is for a place to break away from that. The other thing that I think why this is happening in the US is that when we talk about embracing diversity, the people that are taking issue with this, who are for the most part from majority demographics, have a light shone on them, where there's a difficult moment of awareness of have I not succeeded because maybe I'm not good enough or have I not succeeded because somebody else has had a leg up and I haven't.
And more often than not, it's the first one. We are not all great at what we do. Okay? Not everybody is fantastic and not everybody is wonderful. That's how the world works. And that's how the world is. But there are different access points to opportunity here. I think it's really important when we start to see people who have those same access points already get annoyed that other people are getting the same access that they already have, that the conversation here really is on insecurity. And it's very, very unfortunate, in my view that we end up then in a scenario where something that does make a difference where we get not just different diversity into those universities. I went to a Russell Group University in the UK, which is the equivalent of those ones in the States. So, I know what it's like to have that privilege of when people see Queen's University on my CV and when they see that I'm a Queen's graduate and all those things that mean that automatically there is an assumption of intelligence based on the location of where I've studied. I know that that exists because it has greatly benefited me earlier in my career as well.
What I think is important in this scenario is for the people that recognize that we're taking steps back by doing this, that we need to speak up, it's really dangerous whenever these big, huge decisions are changing and happening, and if we disagree with it, we stay quiet. When we stay quiet, it becomes so commonplace that these things happen, that it's not an issue anymore, because, well, nobody’s saying anything. I want people to speak up, I want you to say why you think it's wrong. I want people to talk about the benefits of affirmative action, for example, and the statistics that are wildly against what the majority of people are saying as well. It isn't about taking from someone to give someone else as opposed to creating a level playing field. Again, I think it's really distressing to be in a world where we've gone down a path now where we see things like the insurrection and stuff like that, where, these kinds of violent views and violent opinions that are firstly put online and platforms like Twitter, for example, that aren't regulated in the way they need to be, for safety perspectives that then come together and then can end up in something like that. And I think that's where the danger comes into play here, that when people don't speak out against it as well, then those loud voices become the majority, even when they're not the majority. So, I think that's where we're in a very touchy, uncomfortable, but very dangerous spot at the moment when it comes to supporting the rights of underrepresented people.
Nadia Nagamootoo 39:37
Agree. And I hear you in terms of needing everyone who feels something around this US Supreme Court ruling, that feels that it's the wrong way to go, to be talking about it. And actually, for organizations to be opening up again that safe space for people to discuss because the power of change comes from people having conversations about it. So A, there might be people out there who are oblivious to what's happening in the States and it would be very helpful if people knew. And B, if people have heard about it, but no one in their organisation is talking about it, then as you say, by default it must be okay, it must be the way that things are going. Especially when there are people in power, we blindly think that people in power must be right. So, it must be alright, ‘well, maybe there is something wrong with positive affirmative action then, maybe I hadn't thought that through, I kind of thought it was a good thing but maybe there is something wrong’. And so, unless we bring those sorts of conversations into organisations and start talking about it, I think, as you say, it just gets accepted and naturally forms part of our societal belief system. So, I think you're right, I mean, we're on quite rocky ground at the moment from a diversity, equity and inclusion perspective. And I suppose one of my biggest fears is that it extends beyond where we are. And it continues to evolve that way, where laws that have been changed in the past to create more equity and more inclusion are now going to be overturned, not just in the US, but in other parts of the world too. And in your book, you do have lots of practical tips to demand more and to demonstrate more allyship as well. I'm curious as to whether there's a particular tool or tip or something that you've maybe applied in your organisation or personally that has made the most difference in terms of allyship and in terms of demanding more from the system.
Sheree Atcheson 41:44
So, in Demanding More, there's lots. I think there are two ones that I think every organization can do. The first one, which I think is relevant for everyone, regardless of whether you're a VP or whether you're a brand-new fresh-face graduate and so on, is sharing growth opportunities. When we think about progressing in our careers, and when we think about widening our networks and so on, a lot of that comes down to growth opportunities. So, opportunities in the workplace where you're able to do something that’s difficult for you, that's a fire to put out and so on, to showcase that you're ready to move to the next level, that you're ready to be paid more, whatever it might be. If we don't share growth opportunities, then we hold a lot of those opportunities for ourselves. More often than not, that happens because one, we've done it a lot of times before, so we know we can do it quickly and easily or two, the person who's entrusting the growth opportunities to us may be from a similar background as us, so therefore has an affinity bias towards you to think that you're the best person. When you get to any level in your career, there's going to be a point where you're given things that are not necessarily pushing you outside of your boundaries anymore. But for other people on your team or other people around you, that may be something that helps them progress, it helps them push that envelope open just a little bit more. And what I say to people is just start to think about when you get new opportunities, is it something that you're going to benefit from, from a growth perspective and expertise or an experienced perspective, or is there a lot of weight in passing that opportunity to someone else who maybe could use that in a way that you've had to use it in the past? I think that's the first thing.
The second thing which is more relevant from a company-wide scale is sponsorship. Every company that I've worked with, which I've lost count of now, I always implement a sponsorship programme. Very often people will think sponsorship is the same as mentorship. Mentorship is about sideline advice, sort of offline help, and sharing your career to help other people take snippets from it. Whereas sponsorship is very direct intervention and very direct advocacy for someone who's within a similar vertical or business unit to you. The reason that that's important is research has shown that when it comes to women and multicultural professionals, more often than not, they receive a mentor instead of a sponsor. And those that receive a sponsor have a higher rate of acceleration into leadership and growth. So, what I do and we've done this in Valtech as well, is that I always implement a structured framework to make sure that one, everybody has the same experience. So, I would know how to be a really good sponsor because I've been doing it for a long time, somebody new, who's maybe a director of VP level may not have that same experience. So, training has to be provided to make sure everybody's on the same page. We have to set up frameworks that people can utilise to help guide conversations, to make sure we're having meaningful conversations instead of just ranting spheres, which doesn't help. And then we also have to make sure we take global nuance. So in Valtech, we piloted this last year across seven entities and this year we're now going across 16 entities, so more than doubling our efforts but the framework is the same everywhere. The process for applying is the same but what's different is the criteria. So, for example, underrepresented proteges are what we call folks.
Underrepresented means something very different in Brazil than it does in Switzerland. Whilst the framework is the same, the criteria for being a protege are different in every entity. For example, in India, we are focusing on women on the cusp of leadership as proteges. In the UK, we're focusing on women, mid-tier women and people of colour. In Switzerland, we're focusing on women and non-native folks, so folks that are not originally from Switzerland. So, in all of the entities, time has been spent really analysing what we mean when we say underrepresented. And how do we really shift the narrative for that focus of that group or groups? And that's where sponsorship is so important. So last year, we saw a significant increase in how the protege had rated their confidence, their desire to share their ideas and their ability to share their ideas, both in peer level room but also at a leadership level, which is what we were really focusing on. And I'm super excited to see, you know how we really go for this full year now. Around November 2024, that programme will finish and then we'll review, and we'll see any mistakes that we've made. And we'll launch it again in March 2025, with a whole new cohort, but that's what's important, it’s the nuance, it's recognizing that, for example, let's say if we were just to do women across the board for the Accelerating into Leadership programme, that doesn't make sense because actually in Brazil, Toronto and Chicago, women are well represented in our senior leadership teams and in our mid-tier management because those areas are mostly focusing on design, so, there's a lot of different diversity. So that's why the nuance and the sort of picking apart the data to understand where you're at is key. So, sharing growth opportunities and creating sponsor frameworks I think are the main two ways that you can change that dial.
Nadia Nagamootoo 46:43
Incredible. And thank you for those examples that you're doing at Valtech and the sponsorship programme sounds incredible, very much looking forward to hearing more. Now I've got a final question for you which I've been asking all of my guests on Why Care this season and it’s because I'm writing a book, which is out in March, next year called Beyond Discomfort. And I'm interested in one of the most uncomfortable things that you have had to manage as a DEI practitioner as you've navigated through some of the complexities of your upbringing. Can you offer an example of how you have moved beyond discomfort?
Sheree Atcheson 47:23
Yeah, of course. So, when you create something, when you branch something like that, you have so much ownership of it, you're trying your best to make it succeed. It was ultimately like a start-up for me when I was doing that. And it was difficult but I was making a lot of fast-paced decisions. I was bringing on team members and so on. And I was thrust into leadership, I was doing stuff that most fresh graduates were not doing. I was leading teams and building teams in all of these remote locations, helping create networks, sitting in the rooms, with execs and so on of companies all around the UK at that stage. And that meant that I was holding the reins so tightly, that it meant the teams that I was building, I was micromanaging them, I was like demoralizing them because I was like I need this to do right. So, I need you not to do this, I need you to do this. And I don't want you to do that. And why did you do this? Why did you not tell me? And of course, that meant that the team then took a step back and they were not happy because they were not getting the growth opportunity they wanted from joining this team because I was holding everything so tightly. And I got to a point where I realised my success does not have to have Sheree Atcheson on it, my success can have anybody's name on it, it doesn't have to be me, and it doesn't have to be direct to me. If this team succeeds, that is my success. And I realised that and I just stood back and I left them, they made mistakes, and they also did great work. But that's the whole point, they had to make mistakes, I have to let people do that. And I guess one of the real learnings from that was the ability to recognise when it's your turn to step back and let someone else run but also recognizing the power of matching pace. So, I moved very fast. And it's something I've always had to work on. I go from zero to a hundred.
When I do personality tests and those kinds of things, I'm very red, but I'm also yellow, empathetic and stuff, but I'm very direct. And a lot of people, when I communicate, I'm very blunt as well, because I'm Irish. A lot of people when they talk, you know it takes them a while to get to the point and so on. They like to think things out loud and everything and that's totally fine. Mine's the opposite. And there's been times when it's like the rabbit just racing on ahead. And I've forgotten that I've left people behind because they're still figuring out what's going on. And so, I've had to make sure when I'm working on teams and I'm leading teams now as a VP and Chief Diversity Officer, that I make sure that I match the pace of the people around me. And that's been something that's even relevant in my own relationships. I've been married to my partner for 6 years, and we've been together for 12 years. He weaves and I am very direct. And so, we've had to learn to make sure that I don't just go straight ahead and that he doesn't just go super slow, that there's a middle part there that's the best of both worlds. So that lesson has been useful, both from a work perspective and making sure I'm happily married. Yes.
Nadia Nagamootoo 50:07
Well, thank you so much for sharing that personal story but also everything that you shared with me today. Sheree it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on Why Care. If people are interested in connecting with you, what sort of social platforms are you on?
Sheree Atcheson 50:24
So best to get me on is LinkedIn or Twitter or my website which is www.shereeatcheson.com, you can always get me there.
Nadia Nagamootoo 50:30
Excellent. Well, we'll put all of the links on the show notes of our page, the usual place www.avenirconsultingservices.com under podcasts. Sheree, thank you a hundred times over. You are incredible at what you do and it's just been an absolute pleasure speaking to you today. Thank you.
Sheree Atcheson 50:49
Thank you very much, Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo 50:51
That concludes episode 36 of Why Care. I could honestly chat with Sheree all day. She has so much to offer in terms of knowledge and guidance to support organisational inclusion. Her humility and vulnerability in sharing her personal story is what makes her words so powerful. Her book Demanding More is available on Amazon and is very much worth the read. You can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn and X, formerly Twitter with the handle, Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Glory Olubori for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
