Why Care?#37: Jenny Vazquez-Newsum -Untapped Leadership
(Leadership theories are being developed by white men and researched on those from white backgrounds). “I think the biggest risk is how subtly permeated this exists within our definitions of leadership, of the leadership that we value and trust… We've built a foundation that sits on these definitions. And so now, every time there's a deviation or something that's different, or just, you know, something that we don't agree with or resonates with us, then it has to test that foundation. That's hard, that we kind of are sitting on these roots that have us reflecting on leadership and interpreting leadership in a certain way, from the moment we arrive on this planet. It's just very hard to peel away from that. And I think that's maybe not the biggest risk, but the biggest challenge. I think the biggest risk is that we just are so embedded and entrenched within it that we risk not evolving.”
In Episode 37 of Why Care?, I speak to Jenny Vazquez-Newsum, Founder and CEO of Untapped Leadership. We discuss her book, Untapped Leadership, and we explore the concepts of contextual agility, stealth-clean up and the zone of untapped leadership.
We also touch on topics such as the race penalty, imposter syndrome, and how we can redefine and redesign leadership so it is representative and inclusive of all.
Jenny’s passion for DEI is evident in her roles as a leadership facilitator, educator, consultant, and author. Her work in DEI has spanned over two decades, and she has worked with over 500 leaders from more than 200 organisations. Her goal is to address the limitations of current leadership rhetoric, as such, she has set out to create a space where marginalised leaders’ contributions are named, validated, and amplified.
Jenny speaks on her motivations in writing Untapped Leadership, which came from her reflections that the management courses she attended and books she read were typically created by white men. She clarifies that although her book was written from a racialised lens, there is an aspect of everyone that may be marginalised and so her book applies to underrepresentation more broadly. She wanted to spark conversations about the way we can bring other perspectives into the leadership conversation. Her aim here is for us to get to a point where everyone, regardless of identity, leads in a way that cultivates and encourages the untapped capacities of others.
Jenny breaks down the key concepts in her book:
- Roots of Leadership – Jenny gives an example of the ‘Great Man Theory’, where leadership was defined by the characteristics and behaviour of great men. However, by looking at the Fortune 500 senior leaders, it is evident that this theory is still in action. As she explains, if different leadership perspectives were being valued, we shouldn’t be seeing only this type of leader. What keeps this status quo going is when people fail to reflect on how inadvertently they might have excluded some perspectives.
- Stepping stones to leadership (Redesigning Leadership) – Most organisational structures are triangular, not very representative, and result in a lot of people being left behind. As she mentions, an organisational chart should not be a leadership map, it should be how leadership is exercised at every level and should have a more circular representation, where anyone can be involved, regardless of their position, authority, or experience. What she advises is contextual agility; a leadership that is grounded in context and being agile in that context.
- Systemic vs Individual (Stealth-clean up) – Jenny explains a frequent phenomenon whereby leaders from marginalised ethnic groups are given an almost impossible task to ‘clean up’ an organisation mess. However, they have limited support, people are less forgiving, and their missteps are more consequential. When organisations go through ‘epic failures’, they place the onus on the individual at the very top, when it is in fact systemic. To create a more sustainable system, she advises that organisations think about the structural elements, the systems in place, and how to fix this so that the person leading has all the support they need to succeed.
- The race penalty – Jenny identifies through her connections with leaders of colour, that there is a ‘mental calculus’ of how to engage, i.e., they take extra thought and consideration on their actions, knowing that they might not be able to speak or show emotion the same way as somebody else in their organisation. This reality in itself, is something that they are often made aware of in their daily interactions.
- Reframing Imposter Syndrome – Jenny references her own experiences of how she would not engage in class because she felt that she didn’t belong. She explains that this narrative of imposter syndrome is deceiving because it is a deficit in the system, not the individual. Imposter syndrome needs to be reframed - what is needed here is a system that is supportive, robust, diverse, and representative to all, where everyone feels that they belong because they see that they belong.
- Zone of Untapped Leadership – Jenny describes the ‘zone of untapped leadership’ as the intersection between the way you leverage your power and privilege and the way you leverage your marginalised perspectives. For example, her power and privilege lie in formal education and her marginalised perspectives come from her identity as a BIPOC woman in the leadership field. For her, this zone of untapped leadership bridges the two and helps her to find her leadership and fully utilise her skills and talent.
Links:
Jenny can be found on:
- Book
For more from Untapped Leaders, you can visit their website at: https://www.untappedleaders.com/
Transcript
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 00:00
Great man theory, is how leadership was defined by the characteristics and the behaviours of great men, only certain great men, let's be clear. And now that theory has, of course, been rejected, we've moved on and rightfully so. But if we look at the number of Fortune 500 CEOs, for example, just kind of the representation at the very top of organizations, I can't help but see great man theory still in action because we're not seeing the representation that we should if we're actually truly valuing different perspectives and different leadership and then really looking for leadership in different places. And so that's like just one example of the fruit might have fallen off the tree, but the tree is still the tree.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:03
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business Psychologist, Coach, Speaker and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organizational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone.
I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 37 of Why Care? My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. I am so excited to have the wonderful Jenny Vasquez Newsum on the show. Jenny is the founder of Untapped Leaders, a leadership development organization and consulting firm specializing in uncovering overlooked capacities of diverse teams. She's the author of Untapped Leadership; harnessing the power of underrepresented leaders, which was released in June this year. Over the past two decades, Jenny has worked with over 500 leaders for more than 200 organizations, ranging from established executives at large corporations to high school students beginning their career journeys.
In this episode, we go to the roots of how our understanding of leadership has been created. Jenny discusses the systemic biases in leadership theories and how the scarcity model of leadership that leaders can only be the very few at the top limits the involvement of everyone, particularly those of marginalized groups. Jenny shares how leaders from untapped ethnic groups can offer so much nuanced understanding of how to lead, through their own experiences of what has and hasn't worked for them and others. We also have a fascinating conversation about what Jenny terms a ‘stealth clean up’, as well as reframing imposter syndrome as a systemic deficit rather than an individual one. Enjoy.
Jenny. It is an absolute pleasure to have you on Why Care, thank you so much for joining me.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 04:00
I'm so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this for a while.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:05
Yeah, me too. Ever since we were on Andre Darmanin’s show, the Global Conversations podcast together. And as soon as I heard you speaking, I was like, oh my goodness, I need Jenny on my show.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 04:20
You are so kind, I love it. So great to be here. I'm so excited.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:22
And of course, when we did share that platform together, I learned about you publishing your book. And I have to say it's one of the best books that I've read on inclusive leadership because it just reframed things so beautifully. It really made me think about a different way of looking at leadership in general and what we're missing in leadership theory and behaviour and everything that we see.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 04:52
That means so much, thank you for saying that. And you know as we write, you never know what will land or what won't. So that really does mean a lot to hear.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:00
Of course. Just to begin with, because my audience might not necessarily know who you are, and your background, but also how you came to write Untapped Leadership; harnessing the power of underrepresented leaders. So if you wouldn't mind starting there.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 05:14
Yeah, well, I'll do a brief summary of how I got here. So, my background is in education and leadership development. So, I worked in the non-profit sector and higher education, always kind of around spaces that were developing others in some capacity. So either students or adults and executives, really kind of working with those through leadership development experiences and programs that supported them in their career journeys. For me, though, after a couple of decades, thinking about the management courses, I've taken, the leadership courses I've taken, the books I had read, those that were assigned on the syllabi, and then even the frameworks that I would train and then facilitate around, I had a moment in 2020, which was, you know, very much a core shaking year for a lot of us, reflecting on the realization that almost all of those frameworks, and all those books that were assigned were written and created by those that didn't look like me, it probably didn't have someone like me in mind.
And that's where Untapped Leadership really came about. It was at that moment that really reflected on my own leadership experience, as well as those that really had a deep impact on me, and weren't represented in those books and in those frameworks. Leaders of colour that I found to be so purposeful, effective and strategic, all these aspects of leadership that I really learned from, and yet I hadn't read about them in books, or at least they weren't that ‘top leadership books’ that were there. And so untapped leaders were really just an opportunity to elbow a little room in the conversation and bring in other perspectives, and really hopefully encourage folks to understand that there's a lot of value in some of these overlooked voices that we haven't tapped into over the last few centuries. And so that's where they were all just kind of came about and then just spilt out of me in that moment, after decades of doing the work.
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:21
Yeah. And thank you so much for writing it. And you interviewed several leaders from different ethnic backgrounds in particular. And what was the reason for that? Why did you want to highlight some of those voices across the book? You've got little boxes in the book where you offer those quotes. Tell me a little bit more why you decided to do that.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 07:44
Yeah, well, I think one thing I’ll mention first is that Untapped Leadership; harnessing the power of underrepresented leaders, really was focused on racially marginalized leaders just to create the case, to create the story, the narrative to show and amplify the experiences of those that have been overlooked. And that really brings in the stories, the vignettes, the actual experiences of those that we can all again learn from. It really was a mechanism to bring some of the frameworks and kinds of approaches that I put forth to life so that this really was a book that was grounded in the realities, experiences and expertise of racially marginalized leaders.
That said though, marginalization or the ways we kind of experience being othered or not being kind of on the sidelines of our professional spaces is much wider than just race. And so, what I always want to highlight when talking about this book is that there's so much more that we can start to expand on and think about when we think about ‘underrepresented leaders’. And so, I use the stories and this particular perspective to make the narrative, to bring in kind of those voices that again were overlooked. But I hope it sparks this opportunity to really think about all the ways that we can have other perspectives in this leadership conversation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:18
Of course. For sure I hear you, like, you decided to shine a lens on one particular aspect of underrepresented voices and it doesn't mean that it's limited to that, it's just that the book shines a light on that particular group. A very early part of your book, really started me thinking about everything I'd learned in my undergrad psychology. Okay, so you talk through leadership theories and it struck me that I never, particularly at the age of 18 or 19. when I was studying my undergrad, I never really critically reviewed the psychologists were that were creating these theories. I just took it as this is what we were being taught. It was the curriculum I learnt, I reeled off who said what, but didn't really challenge the lens through which these leadership theories were being created, i.e. that of white men predominantly. And it really made me think when I read that very first chapter of your book, what do you think are the biggest risks here with achieving inclusion when we're promoting leaders that are based on those theories and assessments that are predominantly developed by white leaders and researched on people of a white background?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 10:34
Yeah, to answer very clearly, I think the biggest risk is how suddenly permeated this exists within our definitions of leadership, with the leadership that we value or the leadership that we just trust. Why I wrote that in the way I did, really kind of going back almost like era by era, decade by decade, theory by theory, showing that it has only been certain perspectives. And again, in this case, it’s white and male. And even in that, the researchers that are asking the questions, that are interpreting the results, that are finding the research participants that are going to also largely be of that same homogenous group, then we've built a foundation that sits on these definitions.
And so now every time there's a deviation or something that's a little different, then it has to test that foundation and that's hard. And we are sitting on these roots, as we talked about that have us reflecting on leadership and interpreting leadership in a certain way, from the moment we arrive on this planet, honestly, and so it's just very hard to peel away from that and move away from that. And I think that's maybe not the biggest risk, but the biggest challenge. I think the biggest risk is that we’re just so embedded within it, that we risk not evolving because we're so entrenched, so that's what I think is the biggest risk
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:21
It’s so invisible as well, like, I don't know how I've been influenced by the psychological theories of leadership that I've read and studied. But of course, I have been, for me, I will absolutely have been influenced, and guided, in terms of my framework, and my understanding of what leadership is based on those theories. I've never deconstructed that framework, it just is, it's evolved over time based on what society, what research, what psychologists have said what good leadership is. So, it's a huge challenge.
And you mentioned there about roots. And that brings me to a really beautiful metaphor, which made me stop and think when I read this, you use the metaphor of trees as a way of understanding leadership and what you call the roots of our current narratives, which is kind of what we're talking about here, right? The roots of where we learn what leadership is, right? And so you say, if we are to consider our current interpretations of leadership as fruit born of that tree, we have not examined its source closely enough before taking a bite. So beautiful. It was so visual, and I loved it. Can you please expand on that?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 13:35
Yes, what I'm trying to kind of narrate or really explain is, that we can't consider and think about leadership in our current present state, how we define it, how we see it exercised, who is in positions of leadership, all those aspects, without going to those routes, to the historical context on which this has all been built. And this is where a lot of my work really sits, it’s like how has this context informed the present moment? When we think about the fruit-bearing tree, that phrase of like, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, all those narratives around that. I think that's very true. Like, we can't assume that we are devoid of that history. I'll give one example. So in that first chapter, I start with the great man theory being kind of the birth of the modern-day use of the word leadership. And so that was in the 19th century, that's how leadership was defined by the characteristics and behaviour of great men.
Only certain great men, let's be clear. And now that theory has, of course, been rejected, we've moved on absolutely, and rightfully so. But if we look at the number of Fortune 500 CEOs, for example, the representation at the very top of organizations, I can't help but see great man theory still in action because we're not seeing the representation that we should if we're actually truly valuing different perspectives and different leadership, and then really kind of looking for leadership in different places. And so that's like just one example, the fruit might have fallen off the tree but the tree is still a tree and the earlier and the clearer we get about that, I think that's where we have the best opportunity to know okay, well, now what? What is going to be the leadership of this next century? And how can we shift and be more truthfully inclusive and really value the diverse perspectives that exist in reality? That's really what I'm trying to get at with that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:59
It’s beautiful, and it made me think if every time I have a thought of any kind, a thought which inevitably comes from the very roots of what I've learned as a child, if I was to study, and really understand where that assessment or assumptions or beliefs comes from, so observing the fruit, as you put it, that's kind of what we're after for leaders to do, to observe, to really self-reflect where possible. Obviously, we're living fast-paced lives, and it's not always easy to start assessing every thought we have but to really start questioning, is the fruit, is the idea, is the belief that I have born from a certain root that might not necessarily be that helpful when it comes to inclusion.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 16:48
Yeah, absolutely. You just took that piece around self-reflection because I do think that's so essential and finding space to do that is challenging. And I think a lot of times where I work with leaders, I always say that really understanding context is probably one of the core leadership skills that folks need to have. But to understand context, you need to have space, this idea of balancing thought and action, so that actions are not just driving forward or kind of doing things as we always do or not really thinking about those roots of why I'm making these decisions or realizing that I've maybe inadvertently excluded some perspectives or all those aspects, that takes space. And so that's what I think another challenge of today's world is that we're not really given that space to do that. And so then that status quo kind of continues, we just keep on the same hamster wheel, so to speak.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:52
You talk about and you've just explained this whole kind of heroic leadership, the scarcity model of leadership, which suggests that leaders can only be the very few. And actually, I loved the way you challenged that, why can't everyone be leaders? Why are we always looking for these elite few people at the top to be leaders? So how does that sort of thinking limit our progress towards DEI?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 18:23
Yeah, when we think about organizational structures, we think about very triangular and the leadership is concentrated at the very top. So of course, when you think about a triangle, that's a very thin top and then a wide base. So, if we're kind of interpreting leadership in that way, we've left out a whole bunch of people, we’ve left out most of us in that. And again, when we kind of have that conversation around representation, who is in those top rungs, then by default, we're now equating leadership with that very thin base and not that representative. And so really, what I want to challenge is of course that definition of leadership, that an organizational chart should not be a leadership map, it shouldn't say, okay, the leaders are all up here and then here's everyone else.
It really should be how is leadership exercised at every level. How can this be a more circular representation in a way where anyone can be involved no matter what position? How can those who actually make leadership choices and behaviours really engage that we value that leadership at every level that isn't assigned to a title? And so I think, as I really kind of name and define leadership in the book, it’s really around this idea of contextual agility, like really grounded in context and being able to be agile in that context. And I'll tell you, I've seen leaders who are in high school that do this and leaders at entry-level roles that do this. And so, I want to blow away the definition of, again, that very top of the organizational chart as the leadership because then we won't notice all the ways others are being leaders and that's just by design, and so we want to redesign that, 100%.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:29
Yeah, just scrap what we already believe and just start again. Let's just sort of focus a bit more on what underrepresented or as you call it, ‘Untapped Leaders’ can bring to organizations, and to leadership. Because you explain in your book that people from marginalized groups can see what you say, the full picture, because of what they've experienced, they're more equipped with ingenuity and with skill. And you say, they have a more layered understanding of critical work challenges and leadership approaches that are more connected to context than dominant perspectives. I’m really curious, as I read that, I was thinking, I wonder what Jenny really means by marginalized groups or people from underrepresented ethnic groups can see the full picture, that they have a more layered understanding, what does that mean?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 21:26
Yeah, so this is really connected to Standpoint Theory, which is by a feminist researcher, Dr Sandra Harding. And I won't get into like the nitty-gritty of it. But basically, Dr. Harding’s theory around Standpoint, really stemmed from, in her field, again, with a lot of white and male researchers that were kind of the first authors and publications that were getting kind of the big grants, all those perspectives. And she posited that, really again, the case I'm making with Untapped Leadership is that that is a certain perspective. And when you're kind of thinking about the research questions, the nature of the study, the interpretation of results from a particular perspective. And if it's a dominant perspective, you may miss a lot of the other context of reality because you haven't experienced this marginalized perspective in a way. So for her, it was really around women and representation in that space.
What I really want to kind of frame and connect to is the ways that the nature and the definition of leadership haven't resonated for me or the way that work and the kind of careers and professionally, all these aspects of career-minded lives haven't worked for me. That gives me a perspective of what doesn't work for me, but it might not work for others either. It also gives me this lens of realizing, that maybe things that work for me might not work for others, as well. And so just having kind of experienced as a biracial Black woman in the leadership space that's largely dominated again by others that don't look like me, whose voice is valued more, the way we kind of look at that, then I see this from an outside perspective. And that's what offers me this opportunity to kind of think about what's untapped. Like, really now, there are aspects that I think we're missing and I don't think if you've kind of experienced your trajectory in that core, in that centre, very aligned with the last few centuries of work, that you might not be able to see those aspects.
There's an image that I leverage of an elephant. And they're all these people around the elephant at different parts, like looking really closely at it and saying, Oh, well, it's a rug, it's a mat or like really kind of misinterpreting what the elephant is because they're just too close to it. I would say that a lot of us who are underrepresented and marginalized are really kind of on the outskirts or maybe looking at the elephant from afar. And we say well, that's an elephant. And that's really kind of the case that I'm trying to make is that in the variety of ways, and again, it's not only race, but it's also a lot of different lived experiences that give us that nuance, that context that offers us insight into how to lead because we know that life is different for everybody, that people show up to work with different loads and with different experiences, and that then helps us to be agile within the context and within reality.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:55
One of the things I thought, that’s a really bold statement that Jenny just made there because the risk is that we get the cis hetero white male leader completely on the defensive, saying, well, what do you mean? I can't see the full picture. And so, you’re actually saying that people from a sort of ethnic minority marginalized group would make better leaders because they can see more?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 25:26
I appreciate that question. I appreciate tackling this head-on, I would just very clearly say no, so in no way, as we have even thought about in the last couple of centuries, in no way does someone's race or sexual identity equate them to leadership because then we get back to some of the very problematic aspects where we began, and so no. And for the cis hetero white men that are listening, that is reading the book, I just kind of engage with a lot of them that really the work still resonates. Because one, I will argue or I bet there's an aspect of everyone in some respect that may be marginalized, that there's something, that there is a particular perspective that maybe they don't bring into the workplace, they don't consider, there might be something to learn or unpack there.
And two, ultimately, the goal of this conversation is how can we all, regardless of identity markers, etc, lead in a way that cultivates and encourages the untapped capacities of others? And so for leaders and cis hetero male, really kind of, I mean there's a challenge here, this is the kind of the call to action of really questioning and saying, what am I missing? We all are missing something because we cannot know everything and we don't have all the experiences. So that's the baseline, we have a baseline here. But if you kind of reflect on it and your trajectory has been smoother because of seeing people that look like you in the books, seeing people that look like you in the boardroom, having this like network of connections that kind of smooth the path up, then my challenge is to honestly reflect on like, okay, well, how is that limiting me as the leader because I now am realizing I may not have the full depth of perspective. And so, I hope that answers that because I appreciate that question. Because I do want to be very clear like that then we just are going back to the problematic ways of thinking about leadership.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:43
I thought you made a really good point in your book about people of a marginalized group, and leaders stepping in after an epic failure. Okay, and I really enjoyed reading that, Oh my goodness. And then I started to think of all these examples and literally, they just started popping into my head, like I was thinking about Theresa May, our British Prime Minister who stepped in after David Cameron and then had to sort out Brexit. And then I thought about Rishi Sunak, who's the current prime minister, who's of an ethnic background, who stepped in after we had a very small stint of a woman called Liz Truss. And actually, the state of the UK economy at the point where he took over was really, really disastrous. I can just think of two examples instantly.
This has really made me think, you said, “Coupled with limited space to make even the smallest missteps, marginalized leaders are given less chance to succeed. And if they fail, the system is tricked into thinking that it should return to the traditional approaches that did not work before, without acknowledging the tumultuous environment in which these leaders tried to work.” And I think, gosh, and you know what, that's human nature, isn't it? It is that whole kind of, oh well, I knew it wouldn't work out. I knew that we should have always just gone on with it, completely forgetting the way it was before wasn’t by far from ideal in the first place. What needs to change here? How do we fundamentally change this pattern, this belief system?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 29:26
There are so many layers to this because it is fascinating, so I call it stealth clean-up in the book. And I also can reflect on many, even in small organizations to large universities, this phenomenon would happen pretty consistently for marginalized leaders, for those that are then stepping into oftentimes very impossible situations with limited support and understanding. And if they're the first or one of the only ones who represent them or have their background or experiences, the data will say that if the missteps are more consequential, we’re less forgiving. When organizations go through epic failures, they place the onus on the one individual at the very top, either that person outgoing who may have created it or the person incoming who now has to fix it.
We're not in a sustainable system because we're still with this kind of antiquated idea that the person at the top can solve it all when I think it's much more systemic. And so, what I think organizations can do, particularly when we have a new leader coming in and working in this stealth cleanup, that’s an impossibility, is to think about also, what are the structural elements that created this situation. What are the systems that landed us here and how do we fix those so that the person in this role and leading this charge has all the support and mechanisms to be able to succeed, it still is tricky. But I think when we think a little bit less individual, more systemic, we get a better understanding of the issues and the person tackling the challenges has a better chance and better support to be able to lead through and out of whatever the challenge is. And so it's nuanced. It's not just an individual challenge, it is a systemic challenge.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:39
It really is. And it does feel there's something deeply within human nature, which is less pleasant to talk about, that we kind of automatically think that someone who we deemed to be a strong leader, which again, going back to the leadership theories and frameworks are typically represented by white men, that we’re much more accepting of their decisions and much more forgiving of some of the things that we almost make excuses for some of their mistakes or errors and sweep it under the carpet and almost forget them. But when it comes to people of a marginalized or ethnic group, or anyone from a minority group that is much less, as mentioned, the forgiveness is much less, it's like the opposite, we're expecting them not to do too well.
And so, when they make one, oh, I knew it wasn't going to work out. I knew that they weren't going to be good enough yet for this job, they weren't up to it. I suppose it does come back, again, when you talk about these deep roots, that we really need to start challenging these narratives popping up. Why is it okay that Boris Johnson had a party in lockdown? That's not okay. And yet, there are things that people will be celebrating about how he managed certain things, it’s like, well I wonder, and it's hard to experiment with these sorts of things but if there was an ethnic minority Prime Minister or someone from a marginalized group who’d done that, how much more severe would the penalty have been?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 33:18
I think that's very real, I often connect with leaders of colour through the organization, there is a mental calculus of how to engage and knowing that you might not be able to show up in the same way or speak in the same way or show emotion in the same way as somebody else in your organization. The White male leader might be able to do certain things but for a Black woman, there's no way. And that's I think, an undercurrent of a conversation that I often have. And it's just a reality that we're again aware of that needs to come to the surface, that we're experiencing different workplaces and experiencing different paths to leadership that maybe, again, haven't been written about or talked about as much as it should.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:18
Yeah, I agree. Moving on to slightly later in your book. I have to say when I scanned your contents, I was delighted to see, that I actually skipped forward, I have to admit to this particular chapter because I was really interested in what you were gonna say. The chapter is called ‘The deceiving narrative of impostor syndrome’. And it's a subject that comes up so often in my coaching, as well as facilitation and leadership development in general. What you explain is something that I absolutely agree with, which is that we're constantly referring to the term imposter syndrome, not helped by the fact that we use syndrome as if it's some sort of disease, pointing the finger almost at the individual rather than acknowledging the environmental factors.
Again, going back to the root cause, where is this coming from? And I really appreciated your own story. As a student, you described that only-ness and I really appreciated that and how you were subtly gathering information that you were an imposter, that really made me think about how I was brought up. I was one of three ethnic minority girls in a sea of white, and I had never really thought about how my mind, psychologically I'd be processing, I don't fit in here, how can I prove that I belong here? So, do you think that imposter syndrome, because that's what we're calling it and just so everyone knows what we're talking about, even though we don't like the label, but do you think imposter syndrome is a symptom of being marginalized?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 35:56
I would say in a lot of cases, yes, particularly when we think about imposter syndrome being more prevalent with ‘women and with people of colour’, we should be questioning again the roots, why? If it is more prevalent for certain of us, then why is that? And I want to make the case that it is in that experience of being the marginalized, I think we share a kind of similar experience that was like in school, just realizing that I'm different than everyone else. I look different than everyone else. And there's no like, explicit exclusion here.
It's just noticing, it's processing that and then I think realizing that. I think it fuels this sense of being an imposter, ‘of not belonging and of being the other’, like just being different. And so then, here comes this kind of narrative that for me, like really thrived in my mind all the way up through graduate school, I would not really speak in class because I was just so in my head of not feeling like I belong as I had already just kind of taken myself out of the game. And so, where I really wanted to call out that it is a deceiving narrative is because for a lot of us and many times, it is if we've experienced marginalization or if we're experiencing kind of spaces where we're the first few, one of only, any of those experiences, then that's probably more of the issue than us being at a deficit.
I always kind of say that it's not an individual deficit, it is a systemic deficit, then again, we’re not creating systems that are supportive, robust, diverse and really natural, how they should be, that represent all of us, where we all feel like we belong because we see that we belong. It's an unfortunate kind of labelling and narrative, I understand the source, in the 70s they kind of did the research, which makes sense. But I think now in today's age, it's become like a whole marketplace around impostor syndrome. And I think we're looking the wrong way, this is not for us to individually overcome, it's for systems to inhibit that, to inhibit those feelings.
Nadia Nagamootoo 38:26
Agree, that’s a really tough ask and takes a lot of work for this system to shift, right? And actually, I mean, we can't finish until we've spoken about the ultimate of your book, where it leads us to, which is this concept of our zone of untapped capacity. And it's such a beautiful concept. As soon as I read this idea about our untapped capacity, it really felt like we were opening up the possibility to leverage what we have as minority or marginalized individuals, using the qualities that I have, the skills that I have, the way that I observe the world, to my benefit but also to the organization and the world's benefit. And it was wonderful. So, can you please just expand on that idea? Just tell us more.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 39:20
Yeah, some listeners may have heard of the book, ‘The Zone of Genius’, by Gay Hendrix. And this is kind of an add-on or expansion of that, of really kind of thinking about our zone of untapped capacity really sits in that intersection where the spaces and places we have power and privilege, we all do in a variety of respects. We can even say that listening to this podcast you have access to knowledge, and that there's privilege here. And then the ways that we have marginalized perspectives, the ways that we maybe experienced things differently, see things differently have less of that privilege, have less of that power. But in that, we have that power of perspective, again, that idea of looking at the elephant, there are certain ways that we see the full elephant. And so what I’m encouraging readers and everyone I connect with particularly those underrepresented, again with these perspectives is your zone of untapped capacity, that intersection between the way you can leverage your power and privilege and the way you can leverage your marginalized perspectives, in there lies this like untapped leadership, in there I think lies the purpose or the true impact of your work, of your leadership and your career, whatever that may be.
And so, I use myself as an example, my traditional power and privilege lies in traditional education, like formal education. I've had past roles with the big titles and there comes power within that, access to tools and writing, all those aspects. My marginalized perspectives again, as I mentioned, it's just kind of being a BIPOC identifying women in the leadership field and just kind of seeing the ways that I haven't felt like it represented me and so this zone of untapped capacity really bridged those two to do this work for me. I mean, this was kind of on a large scale, that's where I was able to find my leadership, my purpose in being able to lean on some of those traditional aspects of power and privilege where it gives me clout in traditional ways. And then also making sure I bring in the ways and then what I'm seeing that has been marginalized and so leveraging those two. And so I think when I work with leaders and again, leaders of all backgrounds and experiences, I challenge folks to think about leadership in this way that, if we're really kind of trying to lead in this new world that's ever-changing and really kind of perpetual crisis a lot of times, then how are we making sure we're bringing in those aspects that we have overlooked in the past? This is because there might be some innovation, new ideas and solutions and leveraging kind of the weight behind them that society will give us in those spaces. And so, I really want to challenge folks to think about work and life in that zone and let's see what emerges.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:44
Exactly. And it's such a beautiful, honestly, it is a very empowering of looking at it, we're not going to change everything around us, the system, the roots, that's going to take time, it's going to take work. We're here right now leading, how can we leverage everything that we have for the benefit of the organization or the society, and it's a beautiful way of being able to support people, to look at what they're bringing and see what they can offer.
Thank you so much, I've really enjoyed hearing this, there is so much more I can ask you about your book. And before we leave, there's actually a question I'm asking all my guests this season, and that is related to the book that I'm writing or have written in fact, which is out in March next year. And I'd really like to know, what is the most uncomfortable thing that you've had to manage in yourself or a conversation maybe you've had to have that has been particularly uncomfortable and that you've had to work through?
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 43:45
I'm so excited for your book, by the way. Discomfort and being uncomfortable, I don't love it but it's so necessary, right? To be candid, all of this, like these conversations, we're really getting into the space around Untapped Leadership, calling something out on such a wider, larger scale is highly uncomfortable for me, I'll just say, I again, it was the kind of, I think about the narrative. I’ve unpacked impostor syndrome for a long time and I didn't share my perspective or share my voice and now I'm just trying to undo that and put things out there and really kind of stake a claim of well, my perspective matters and it's important and the world needs it. And that honestly, is a very uncomfortable exercise to be out there kind of having, vulnerable, yes it is. It's something that I kind of try to support in others but I'm honestly working within myself as well on how we kind of say the thing that no one else has said or that we don't hear a lot of people saying because that thing, no matter what it is, is actually essential to this, and it's just a very uncomfortable place to be because the world is hard and you are kind of exposed in a lot of ways. And so, finding that comfort in that discomfort is a journey, I'd say.
Nadia Nagamootoo 45:18
Yeah, I agree. And having written a book as well, it really resonates with me, what you're saying in terms of really putting yourself out there, putting your voice in the room and going, this is my voice here, right here. But I tell you, something that has helped me is speaking to people like you, other authors as well and other people, there is sort of comfort in numbers, even though it's hugely uncomfortable. Yeah, there's something that’s like, actually, we’re together in this discomfort and there’s this collective discomfort.
Thank you, Jenny, for such a pleasure. I was so excited to speak to you. And now I'm just thrilled that we've got such an amazing conversation recorded. Thank you.
Jennifer Vazquez-Newsum 46:04
Thank you so much. This was such a pleasure. I can't wait for your book. I'll say it twice.
Nadia Nagamootoo 46:10
Thank you. That concludes episode 37 of Why Care. This conversation provokes so much thought for me, in how we critically observe the fruit from the tree before we take a bite. I really appreciated how Jenny articulated the zone of untapped capacity, which is incredibly empowering. Do let Jenny and I know what you think of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Insta and X formerly Twitter with the handle @Nadia Nagamootoo. If you're a fan of Why Care?, then you will probably have picked up by now that I have written a book. It's called Beyond Discomfort; Why Inclusive Leadership Is So Hard And What You Can Do About It, and it's out in March 2024. You can preorder your copy on Amazon. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Glory Olubori for supporting the show notes and getting it out there on social media.
