Why Care? Beyond Discomfort - The Launch
“And so for me, I always felt like I was desperately trying to fit in, where it wasn't until my early 30s, did I actually look at myself and go, gosh, yeah, I'm brown. Because, I worked so hard to fit in that I convinced myself that I was like everyone else - that I was white, and the skin colour didn't matter. So that's, that's my story of just not knowing what it feels like. And I don't want anyone to feel like they don't belong, because life's too short. Why can't we just all enjoy each other and feel that togetherness and connectedness? And so that's driven me into diversity, equity, and inclusion, because I see the power that you can create when you see the incredible things that can come from people connecting with each other, trusting or collaborating, really seeing each other, wanting to understand each other. And hearing each other's voices and hearing each other's uniqueness and accepting that uniqueness. And embracing it and going I don't agree with you, but that's okay. When I see the world and it's just so full of hate and separation, I don't get it. And I don't see why it should be.”
This is a unique Why Care? episode - a live fireside chat where I am the one being interviewed! The interviewer is my dear friend, Darin de Klerk, as we discuss all things Beyond Discomfort at my Book Launch event, which took place on 21st March 2024. During our intimate conversation, we tackle the challenges of leadership development and the significance of valuing diverse perspectives. I share some insights into the soul of my new book, my personal journey growing up as a minority in the UK, navigating power dynamics, cross-cultural partnerships, and experiences with identity. We also cover more about leading with the heart, the concept of trauma and privilege, navigating discomfort, activism, allyship, and the power of empathy.
Darin De Klerk and I first crossed paths together in 2015, and I am genuinely honoured and privileged that one of my closest friends was able to join me live on stage at such a significant event in my career. Darin is a highly esteemed Business Psychologist and shares my passion for DEI. This is reflected in his years of experience as the Director of YSC Consulting, a leadership strategy consultancy.
At the start of the discussion, Darin offers a warm and entertaining welcome to my guests, detailing more about how our working relationship has blossomed into such a supportive, inspiring, and close friendship. He then shares more insights into my passion for DEI, my professional journey, and lists some of my achievements to date, as a Chartered occupational psychologist, certified coach, podcast host, and now a celebrated author. This year has flown by so fast, it was truly humbling to gain recognition for some of my awards, such as being listed as HR Most Influential Thinker, 2023, and HR Champion of the Year at the European Diversity Awards.
I elaborate on some of the key concepts of my book and what originally sparked my motivation to finally put pen to paper. I reflect on some of the core challenges I encountered facilitating conversations with leaders globally and creating inclusive leadership, such as leaders actively pushing back. These emotional barriers stem from differing belief systems on inclusion. I realise that more needs to be done to address these barriers, encourage leaders to adopt an inclusive mindset, and set out on a journey of understanding, to be able to initiate organisational change.
Key Points:
-Emotional Approach: As a psychologist, I advocate adopting a reflective approach to help leaders understand emotional barriers. I also encourage introspection, and exploring their own beliefs to understand who they are and gain more self-awareness. This can help enhance their receptiveness to learning about leadership, inclusion, and other people and active allyship. I discuss more about my Beyond Discomfort model of leadership, but point out how I don’t believe in putting people in boxes, as everyone is unique. Encouraging leaders to understand themselves, their emotions, and their beliefs can also help ignite their curiosity to view things differently.
-Personal story: I share more about my backstory, which shaped my journey with DEI. As a first-generation UK-born Mauritian, I grew up as an ethnic minority in a predominantly white area. I encountered prejudices and faced struggles with identity, belonging, and feeling like an outsider. This inspired me to strive harder to succeed, and I was privileged to receive the same education as middle-class families, but I always tried hard to assimilate. These experiences fueled my commitment to ensuring everyone feels like they belong, nurturing connections, listening to other voices, and embracing uniqueness, and diversity.
-Leading with the Heart: I challenge the traditional norms surrounding a strong, archetypal leader. Instead, I urge leaders to shift away from traditional leadership models and lead with the heart versus the head. This means valuing individuals for their uniqueness, strengths, and weaknesses and embracing their differences. It also involves taking the time to understand their perspective, so you can treat them in a way that brings out the best in them.
-White Privilege and Invisible Traumas: As I share an extract from my book, about the challenges of cross-cultural partnerships, I reflect on the concept of white privilege, its cultural associations, and how the world treats people differently due to their diversity. I urge readers to explore and reflect on their own beliefs and experiences, unearned privileges, and to have a sensitive curiosity about others’ invisible traumas. By provoking thought, this can help leaders see the world through a different lens and foster meaningful conversations.
-Willingness to Act: I stress the importance of self-awareness and willingness to act as allies. This can help leaders integrate diversity and inclusion initiatives. I recognise some leaders may be fearful of losing power, challenging the status quo and the pendulum swinging the other way. This is what I call a Disconcerted Leader. However, there are power dynamics at play in every system. It is the responsibility of leaders to have the courage to self-reflect, navigate this fear, let go of the status quo, and understand how diversity can bring fresh perspectives and allyship.
-Disconcerted and Proof Seeking Leaders: I discuss the challenges of working with Disconcerted leaders who feel fearful or stuck around the notion of inclusion. I encourage coaching to help them to navigate this discomfort and have the courage to take action. I have also encountered Proof Seeking leaders who seek evidence and data before embracing DEI. I invite these leaders to move beyond this and embrace how diversity can be complex and not always certain. It’s important to be curious, and show empathy and understanding to help cultivate inclusive working environments.
Links:
Purchase your copy of my book: Beyond Discomfort: Why inclusive leadership is so hard (and what you can do about it)
Links to my recent articles, interviews and a webinar:
How to be a Truly Inclusive Leader Part of the Leading and Learning webinar series for the Tes Magazine Leadership Forum
Why Diversity Is Good For Business: Authority Magazine
Could the four-day week widen racial and gender inequalities?: People Management magazine
Has the DEI Pendulum Swung Too Far?: Diversity Network
Playing the race card’: What underpins a proof-seeking leader?: HR Zone
nisation, please get in touch to find out more. I'm always open to conversations about delivering keynotes, facilitated leadership discussions, workshops, and full inclusive leadership programmes. It's been a pleasure to share my special evening with you.
Thanks for tuning in.
Transcript
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:00
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health and all things inclusion.
I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles, both inside and outside work.
Hello, Nadia here, with a short welcome to this very different Why Care episode. I've been so deeply humbled by all of you who've been contacting me and engaging so much with the content of my new book, Beyond Discomfort. Thank you so much. It honestly means the world to me to know how much it's resonating with you and encouraging a practice of deeper self-reflection. This episode is the conversation I had with my dear friend Darin de Klerk at the Beyond Discomfort book launch held at the Royal Society of Chemistry in London on the 21st of March 2024. It's a very unusual feeling because this time I'm the one being interviewed.
Darin asks me about how I came to write the book, my personal story, the Beyond Discomfort model that forms the basis of the book, and what key messages I hope to land. A special thank you to Darin for his thoughtful questions, light-hearted yet powerful and beautifully crafted approach to this conversation. Admittedly, very odd to be sitting on the other side, but incredibly grateful to all who attended and to all of you for your support and encouraging me to continue sharing my thoughts with the world. If you have read the book, I'd be so grateful if you could leave an Amazon review. This makes more difference than you know. Please do share on socials and direct message me with your thoughts. I genuinely love hearing them. Now on with the episode. Enjoy.
Darin De Klerk 02:53
Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us, for being here, for celebrating this auspicious occasion.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:04
Are we getting married?
Darin De Klerk 03:07
You're not my type.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:08
He's going to have words.
Darin De Klerk 03:12
Sorry, Matt. There's something we've been meaning to tell you. No, it is an auspicious occasion. It's been in the making for how long? Months? I mean the actual...
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:28
The event, or the actual writing.
Darin De Klerk 03:30
Well, I mean the event, but the book itself has been a labour of love for...
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:35
For about a year and a half.
Darin De Klerk 03:37
And that wasn't even actually when it started, right? And we'll get into that tonight, where this book started. But firstly, just to recognise the faces in this room.So Nadia was really keen to just show some gratitude for all of you as our starting point. And just to recognise the distances people have travelled and the effort it's taken to be here, to take time out of your busy lives, to come and celebrate with her. I mean, we have people in the room who have travelled from Italy, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, USA, Scotland, Newcastle, Liverpool, Oxford, Peak District, Croydon.
You're all extremely welcome. We're very grateful to have you here. Thank you.A few housekeeping notices just to make you aware of. We are also recording, so you are live witnesses to one of Nadia's Why Care podcast episodes. Indeed. So you are here as live witnesses to one of the next episodes. So keep an eye out for that as well. We're planning on spending about half an hour having a bit of a fireside chat, talking about the book, where it came from, the inspiration, but also what the book speaks to within organisations and leadership today. And then we'll create a little bit of space towards the end as well, just to open to the floor for any questions you may have. So I'll start with a brief introduction to myself and also just to Nadia, because I think we all know Nadia in different guises, whether that's a wife, a mother, a daughter, a daughter in law, a close friend, an associate, a work colleague. I think we can all agree on one thing, though. She's certainly an inspiration.
So my name is Darin de Klerk. I am equally as inspired by this person sitting on the stage next to me. We have worked together. We have cried together, grown together, shared parenting stories together. And I have the great privilege of being, of holding Nadia in my closest group of friends, as you have seen me through one of the most difficult challenges of my own life, in my adult life. So thank you for having me in your life and having me here with you this evening to celebrate.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:22
Thank you.
Darin De Klerk 06:23
But let's talk about you, because that's what we're here to do. You and your book. So we met, and we always argue about this because I always get it wrong, but it was 2015. We were on, I always say FIRO-B training, but I think it was Hogan psychometric training. No, it's the other way around. And Nadia had at that stage two new babies in her life.One was her daughter, Ilana, who's here tonight. And the other was her consulting business, Avenir. And if that wasn't enough, she was also completing an MBA from Henley Business School at the time that we met.I think this attests to your dynamism and your kind of go-getting and your strength of drive and achievement. Certainly one of the things that inspires me, and I'm sure a lot of people in this room tonight. As well as all of that, you are a chartered occupational psychologist.
You are a certified coach. Yes. And have been operating in the space for the last 20 years, working with leadership development, culture change, organizational strategy. You're a keynote speaker on topics of inclusion, bias, prejudice. You are the creator and host of your own podcast series, Why Care? And now a celebrated author, but also HR's most influential thinker from 2023 and the HR Champion of the Year from the European Diversity Awards.
Yes. And I mean, I just wanted to take a breath and let that settle.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:23
Yes, thank you.
Darin De Klerk 08:26
And humble as well. But as I said, tonight is a celebration. Tonight is about launching this new...
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:38
Third baby.
Darin De Klerk 08:39
Oh, do you know, I was going to say third baby, and then I thought, if you were a man, would I have made reference to babies here tonight? I did have to check myself. So this new project, initiative, undertaking, product. Thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:02
All of the above.
Darin De Klerk 09:03
All of the above. So I'm interested, Nadia, in where it all started.And I mean, specifically the kind of spark for this book.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:11
Yeah. So facilitating conversations with leaders globally, it became clear that actually I could tell them, I could list the skills to be an inclusive leader, but actually it wasn't washing with a lot of them, right? Why should they? And it didn't make sense to them. And there were different challenges that I was experiencing. Some people just thought, well, look, I treat everyone the same.I'm as fair as they can be already. Some people just didn't kind of get how to create equity. Like, how far do we go?When do we stop creating equity when we know it's... And others were just like, well, look, I'm really worried now that because I'm a White male that I'm going to be discriminated against. And that's how I feel. And actually, I feel excluded from the conversation. So there was this wave. And I was thinking, actually, no amount of skill development is not going to help create inclusion if we're experiencing these emotional barriers, right? There's a belief system that underpins what they're telling me. And if I don't listen to them and I just keep beating down the same path in terms of, well, this is what you need to do in order to be inclusive, it's not going to get us anywhere. And actually, there's issues around diversity up to inclusion. Because I think there are times where we do try and go down just the one path and say, well, this is what you need to do. This is how you need to be inclusive. And people are just sitting there.
And either they're passively sitting there wondering, I don't buy into this. And then they'll just do something else or do nothing at all. Or they'll actively push back against it. And I think we've seen a lot of active pushing back. And unfortunately, in various parts of the world, including the States and here. Because, yeah, people don't get it. And we haven't taken them on a journey to understand.
Darin De Klerk 11:13
And I think we, in the work that we do, we have this privilege of seeing inside these organisations, right? And having this kind of an opportunity to see leadership at its best, at its worst, but kind of in the round. And I think that gives us insight. But like you say, often it can just feel like a bolt-on, right? Like, it's another thing I have to do on the list of things it takes to be a good leader.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:38
Exactly. And let's face it, in today's world, we're under so much pressure. It's so fast-paced.
It's 24-7 and then some. And to then get them to switch modes and think, oh, how do I do this inclusively? It's just one ask too many for so many leaders. Especially if it's just being pushed down, it's like driven from the top, which is obviously important for organisational change. But equally, unless the leaders actually get it and are brought in, they're just not going to do very much. And that's not going to create culture change.
Darin De Klerk 12:14
How is this different? How does this create space for leaders? How does it create a different dialogue and a different way for leaders to consider inclusion, equity?
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:27
So, I'm a psychologist, in case any of you didn't know that. And so...
Darin De Klerk 12:32
I think it was in the list.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:34
Was it in the list?
Darin De Klerk 12:34
Yeah, yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:35
And so I took, I suppose, an approach which was, well, let me just get to really understand what's going on emotionally here. And I do see, like, whenever you see someone's behaviour, whether it's defensiveness or anger or frustration or whatever you see, usually there's an emotion that sits more deeply behind that, right? Underneath it. And often, it's fear. They're afraid of something. There's fear there. And then what we see on the outside is that anger and frustration and their destructive behaviours or them not just not getting on board, not buying into what we're trying to do here. And of course, there's DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion practitioners, HR specialists, whoever is trying to drive an initiative, it's hugely frustrating, because then, you know, why aren't they doing what we need them to do? And so the book then, as I mentioned, having spoken to different leaders, I realised that actually, you know, there's a real...something that encourages people or discourages people to act and be active in their allyship when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. And there's something about how receptive they are about learning about themselves, which is key and fundamental to leadership in general, right? Learning about yourselves, really having that self-insight and understanding who you are. And really understanding and being open to learning about other people. And so that's kind of, that's what's different about the book is that, you know, whilst it's based on a model and a framework, which any good MBA and my fellow MBAs will get that, you know, we're taught that it's like a good two by two framework, people can digest it, it's easy to understand. Whilst it is a two by two model, I don't believe in putting people in boxes.
And that's the whole premise of diversity, equity and inclusion. We're all unique, we're all different. But what I wanted was to allow people to read and just reflect, maybe, do I hold that belief? Maybe I do a little bit, maybe I have, you know, you have thought about that at times when this initiative is, you know, I've always, and I've questioned, and that's okay. Like, it doesn't make us bad people that are questioning things. It makes us, you know, we're critically kind of looking at this and going, is this fair?Doesn't feel very fair. And sometimes diversity and inclusion doesn't to some people. So I wanted to provoke thought so that people would read it and go, yeah, I thought that. And actually, what might be going on for me when I think that? What could be under, what could be some of the emotional triggers that I feel? And so I'm trying to, I suppose, insert a little bit of self reflection, self awareness in leaders, because I think that that's the key. I think that's the self awareness piece and really wanting to understand yourself, your emotions, what sits underneath, why you feel and believe what you believe and being willing, just curious to potentially see something slightly differently. And then that's this book, basically.
Darin De Klerk 15:45
It's raising all sorts of curiosities in me, right? And I'm interested in the kind of personal story behind it as well, like your story. And I think one of the things that struck me about reading the book was just that wonderful mix of it being, you know, an MBA, there's data and there's information and it helps build understanding, but at the same time, it's you. And if you're sharing yourself with us, and I'm going to ask you to read a short section of the book to kind of share some of your voice with us in the room, because I think it really brings to life like that kind of balance. But I think before that, I'm interested in, I suppose, how your own personal history and experience has shaped some of your perspective, but also your choice to work in this field, this area, and whether there's something there that you wouldn't mind sharing with us this evening.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:44
It's only between you and me anyway, so.
Darin De Klerk 16:46
That's true. There's no one else here.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:48
Yeah, so it's a really good question. And I suppose it comes down, like, so my background, and for some of you might not know, so I'm first generation UK born. So my parents came to the UK, and my brother and I were born here. And they came from Mauritius. And so, you know, we sort of grew up in a fairly low socioeconomic area, I suppose. And, you know, there were a lot of, a lot of council estates and the socioeconomic background, you know, with children from, who were predominantly white children when I was growing up in my primary school, and who just didn't really either was told, you know, not so nice things about people of colour. But certainly, I was treated quite, you know, I was bullied as a child. And, you know, not severely, I had a little group of ethnic minority, you know, friends who we just seem to kind of congregate with each other. But I certainly have experience knowing what it feels like to be, you know, very clearly not belong.
You know, I was called Paki and that sort of thing, which is, if I could turn back the time, I would just say I'm Mauritian, actually. So my mum really drilled into me, like, study, study, study. And so she was the one who saw something in me to get me into a secondary school, but it was a grammar, an all girls grammar school. And, you know, again, I stuck out like a sore thumb, quite honestly, it was a sea of white, and a few sort of brown dotted around. But I had the privilege of being educated by those same teachers as, you know, it was, you know, a lot of the, not all of them, but a lot of the girls came from very good families, well, you know, middle class families. And so for me, I always felt like I was trying to fit desperately trying to fit in to a point where it wasn't until my early 30s, did I actually look at myself and go, gosh, yeah, I'm Brown.Because I worked so hard to fit in that I actually convinced myself that I was so like everyone else, that I was White, and the skin colour didn't matter. So yeah, that's, that's my story of just not knowing what it feels like. And I don't want anyone to feel like they don't belong. Because life's too short, why can't we just all enjoy each other? And, and feel like that togetherness and connectedness. And so that's driven me in diversity inclusion, because I see the power that it can create when you have people connecting, and the incredible things that can come from people connecting with each other, collaborating, really seeing each other, wanting to understand each other, and hearing each other's voices and hearing each other's uniqueness and accepting that uniqueness, and embracing it and going, I don't agree with you. But that's okay. Yeah, I'm okay. You know, we're still good. Yeah.
Darin De Klerk 20:16
So how can we coexist with this difference?
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:20
Yeah. You know, and I see the world and it's just so full of hate and separation and, you know, and I was like, I don't get it. I don't get it. And I don't see why it should be. So that's, yeah, that's my story.
Darin De Klerk 20:37
Thank you. And I felt it, and anyone who's had any experience of being a minority, of experiencing prejudice. Yeah, I think that that same sense of like, feeling different, I recognise that as well in my own life. And just, I don't know, sometimes how hard you have to work. I recognise the drive that comes from that as well, like to, I suppose, prove yourself in a world that that feels so different or so kind of inundated with difference.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:18
Yeah, it's just, I so wanted to fit in that I just assimilated into, you know, and actually, and then so I then wanted to claim back kind of who I was at a point and just kind of go, no, I'm Mauritian. And actually, that makes me unique and part of who I am. So let me be Mauritian and be British and powerful, you know. So there's a lot, so much of me in this book, so much story about me and my perspective. And I hope that it resonates with people in terms of, you know, your own stories.
Darin De Klerk 21:53
And that is so key, isn't it? And I think you've said this in your podcast many times. But actually, I realised this when I was with a client the other day as well, like how change starts from stories, right? Like telling stories, feeling people's experiences, you know, living those experiences with them to an extent by understanding them or at least being curious. I think curious is the word that sticks. So yeah, and so and then I suppose extrapolating that to the impact that leaders can have through showing some of that curiosity, understanding, willingness to be aware and to, I suppose, act on some of that awareness feels really important given how important the role of leaders is today. And I don't know if you have a perspective on that in terms of, you know, you said already, like things are going all right, left, right and centre across the world, politics, economics, war, like the role of organisational leaders has become so much more important within society, I think.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:57
Yeah. And I think that there's something around to what we, what some of the leaders, certainly some of the older leaders and organisations have been taught it's just what they've been taught about what leadership is and there's a lot of leadership experts in this room. And we know that actually that archetypal leader of one of, you know, has to be strong, has to know the answer, has to be able to take their team from A to B, has to be able to kind of hold to account and, you know, create energy and a drive for their goal. You know, that doesn't have to happen in the way that, you know, some of the old leadership theories say. And really what you can get from your team, from your colleagues as a leader, if you really see them, if you take the time to really understand who they are, what they're bringing, you know, where their strengths are, where their pain points are, what their perspective is, how it could be different to yours, treating them in a way that isn't actually like for like, but actually what's necessary in order to get to the best, the best from them. And that's leading with the heart, which is very different to leading with the head, which is a very, you know, that archetypal leader, you know, this is what we need to do, let's go this way to actually recognising and just dialling up, just dialling up the radar of what people need. Yeah.
Darin De Klerk 24:27
Not easy, I think, for a lot of leaders, leading with the heart, not the head.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:32
Yeah. Oh, it's so alien. And actually, it's so intangible as well. It's like, you know, so you're saying I need to, you know, especially data-led leaders, you know, it's really...
Darin de Klerk 24:41
Soft skills. Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:42
Yeah, exactly. You know, and they put it down, you know, I do that fluffy stuff or whatever. You can reframe that to understanding the power of what you can get from your, in your organisation, if it's led by the heart. Yeah, it's important.
Darin de Klerk 25:02
I'm going to ask you to read a short bit from your book. I've chosen something that I think is interesting, and I think it highlights some of your voice as an author, that the expertise, but also the kind of personal humility and sharing and authenticity. So, thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:22
When I married my husband, I joined...
Darin de Klerk 25:26
That was a nervous giggle. Matt hasn't read the book. He didn't know he was mentioned.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:40
When I married my husband, I joined a White, middle class and incredibly welcoming family. For any of you who have a cross-cultural partnership, you'll recognise that it comes with certain challenges. These challenges are no one's fault. They simply exist. My husband's family engage in different type of conversation to my family, find things funny that are baffling to me, and place emphasis on different values to the ones my family give importance to. I recognise that some blending and compromising of family traditions is almost always necessary when two families come together. In order to make the new family unit work. However, I also believe that this is heightened when cultural differences come into play. When sitting at the dinner table, going for a family walk or going on holiday, I'm constantly aware of being the only racial minority in the group. I stand out when I am with my husband's side of our family, and it is obvious that I don't innately belong. Now, you'd be absolutely right in challenging that the same could be said for my husband when he's with my side of the family. However, to see the difference in our two situations, you must be willing to explore history in depth. What is the value that has been placed on whiteness compared to any shade of brown? Even in countries where the majority of people have brown skin, there is generally a preference for being fairer. Women in particular who are of a darker skin tone often get bullied, are given nicknames and find it hard to marry due to being seen as less attractive.
This dates back to a sign of wealth as those labouring in the fields all day would have had darker skin due to sun exposure. It also points to a deeply held belief that white is best. Notice what feeling this evokes in you when you read those words, white is best. If it is something you haven't noticed before, are you open to exploring it? Colourism, the preference for lighter shades of brown skin and racism are so deeply embedded in symbols and the language around us that we typically don't notice them. For example, white symbolises peace and purity, whilst black symbolises death and evil. In 2016, Nadia Powell, founder of Utopia, together with casting director Selma Nicholls, launched the Christmas So White campaign to counter the whitewashing of images in the media, focusing on the absence of images of minority ethnic families enjoying Christmas. The underlying message is that a perfect Christmas is a white Christmas. Whilst in recent years we have seen the emergence of black characters in comic books, there is still a dominance of white superheroes and when a superhero gets taken over by evil, there is tendency for their suit to be darker.
Think Spider-Man and Venom. When Harry Potter and the Cursed Child first came to London's West End, there was an absolute uproar because black actress Noma Dumezweni was cast as Hermione Granger. This went against what many people believed about Hermione's character, not just that she should have white skin but potentially also what this represents about the character's virtuousness. These messages are all around us and they are picked up and absorbed from a very young age. In one of my workshops, a participant shared, my nephew asked for his fourth birthday wish if he could be white. We don't look, we don't have to look back to times of slavery to see the evidence of white is best. It's right here in our current day life. So you see, when I'm with my husband's side of the family, I am carrying all of that invisible trauma, past and present, with me. My husband, on the other hand, has an unconscious assuredness of status that has forever been present and is equally invisible to him. This is nothing for him or his family to feel guilty about as they can't control what happened in the past or the pervasive symbol and images in the world around us that reinforce racism. However, there are several things that need to happen in order to make a difference. Firstly, acceptance that, on the whole, the world carries a white is best mentality and this influences all that people are, see and believe. And secondly, taking this power with the responsibility it invokes by bringing a sensitive curiosity to what the invisible trauma is and the consequences of it. That is, how does the historical lower status of having Brown skin affect my experience of being in the family?
Darin de Klerk 30:46
White is best. I mean, the words are penetrating, right? I mean, I think the thing that strikes me, I think the challenge you offer, that kind of sensitive curiosity, that willingness to explore, that rides through the book, that awareness you mentioned for leaders, for readers, to be thinking about yourself, to be kind of turning it on yourself, turning the lens in on yourself.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:13
And I want to, you know, obviously there are a lot of personal stories in there, but each time I tried to kind of go, well, what does this evoke in you? What are you thinking of now? Because inevitably people then reflect, hopefully what I'm inviting them to do, reflect on their own story, you know, and their own narrative and what they carry with them. And so hopefully, you know, that it sort of gives that sense of nonjudgmental. And that was the, you know, I never wanted to feel like, oh, you know, can't believe you think that way, or, you know, it was never, it's never meant to be. It's just sort of just enter with curiosity.
And it's okay if you find out that maybe you've missed something or that you haven't necessarily explored why you believe a certain thing or what your experience is just because you're white or just because you're a man or, you know, it's okay. Like we're all different and the world will, the world perceives us and treats us in a way based on those diversity characteristics that we hold. And we can't do anything about those diversity characteristics because we are who we are. We were born into the family we were born into with the color of skin, we were with the sexuality we have, but we can't do anything about it. And no one should ever make you feel guilty for who you are. But we do have a responsibility to own who we are and how we perceive the world, the lens we see the world because of who we are and how the world views us because of how we are. And if we can hold that, because it's hugely uncomfortable at times to recognize that the world might treat me compared to someone else and be able to, and that's what leadership is. I can, I'm okay to say, yeah, maybe, maybe I got to the top here, not purely based on how amazing I am, but there might be some small part that could be down to my privilege, my, yeah, my unearned advantage because I'm white, because I, you know, because look, nothing to feel guilty about, but hold it and take responsibility for it. And then when you recognize it, find out if you walked through a door that was open, maybe someone's back there struggling to find a key. Then that's your responsibility. If you don't notice it, then you can't do anything about it. But once you do, then that's on you.
Darin de Klerk 33:47
This brings us to your model, right? And we won't have time to go into the model, but both of those elements, that awareness of self, that curiosity and being receptive to where others are at, and then the action piece. So I'm through the door, that person doesn't have a key. What's my role? That's part of the model, right? These are the two axis. So I'll just put it up here. I mean, it's on your sketch cards as well, but talk us through those two elements. We've spoken a lot about the curiosity piece. Maybe talk a little bit to the willingness to act piece and where you see that kind of coming in for leaders. What does that look like?
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:28
Yeah. So, so yeah, so the willingness to act as they on the, on the horizontal axis is all about really taking your responsibility to then do something as an ally, walking alongside someone who might need a door opening for them that wasn't before and actually recognizing and helping. This is the tough part because it really sometimes feels like if you help that person, you know, if you open that door, where does that leave you?
Right? And this is the, this is all the disconcerted now, you know, this, this person as a leader, if they're feeling disconcerted is really worried about that. Like, I don't understand now where I fit in here, because now, you know, and I've heard and it's not okay, actually, that men, white men, you know, cis hetero men feel like if they walk into a room and they try to contribute to a diversity, inclusion conversation, that they're looked at in a, well, how do you, well, what are you doing? Yeah, well, yeah, you think you're okay to voice your opinion, you have an opinion here. Actually, yeah, it's important that they do have an opinion here. And so I can see how this disconcerted feeling can arise. And it's sort of like, well, if this is how I'm being treated now, if we get to a point where actually we're really progressing where I don't factor in at all, right? And this, again, that discomfort of they've enjoyed, enjoyed certain advantages that they, you know, may not have been aware of, would have been invisible, intangible to them, that it feels really unfair now to, you know, almost that pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. And now I'm going to be disadvantaged.
And no one's going to be, no one's willing to act if it's going to be at their disadvantage.
Darin de Klerk 36:26
But there's a, it's referred to as a zero-sum mindset, right? Like it's competitive. It's like, if you're winning, I'm losing, as opposed to actually there's enough for everyone. There's abundance that everyone, everyone can win. Yes.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:40
And that's, and it's hard because we're asking them to believe in something that isn't clear. How do I know that if I do act and I do show allyship and we do bring everyone with us that I'm not going to lose out, right? How do I know that this power that I have, I'm not going to be able to hang on, you know, how do I know what it looks like? Because actually people enjoy power, you know, and wherever there is privilege and an advantage, there is power. There's always power and people really like hanging on to their power. So it's deeply uncomfortable to feel like actually diversity and inclusion work could you know, mean that I have to let go of some of it.
Darin de Klerk 37:25
I mean, I had a tiny, tiny, simple example of this traveling into London the other day, just by the pure nature of where I got on the train, I got a seat. And by the time we were kind of approaching London, everyone was standing and I was sitting recognizing my privilege of having a seat and, you know, and what power that brought. And there I had choice, I was able to kind of stand up and offer, but yes, it just kind of struck me, my God, even that it wasn't, it wasn't about my power. It was when I got on, it was just by chance, but there's power in there.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:59
Every system, there is power in every system, your family system, right? There's power because like, let's just think about it. Like if any of you have siblings, right? You know, your order. Were you first? Were you second? Did you come last? Right? There's power there. Every system has power. It's just that it's so intangible, but it plays out. You think about your sibling and your family dynamics. It's power.
Darin de Klerk 38:33
We need a whole other hour for that conversation. Yes, middle child. So yeah, let's move on.
Say no more. So I know the idea here is not to place yourself in a box, right? You've spoken about that. It's not about going, oh, I'm a cheerleader. I'm disconcerted. No. But I'm interested because obviously there's characteristics here, right? And you've spoken a little bit about what that might look like. I suppose just to bring it kind of back to home, I'm interested in the concept of Beyond Discomfort, which is the title of the book. And I'm interested in an example you might have to share of when you've pushed yourself into that mindset, belief system, a way of operating. If you have an example or if you have an example of someone else who's kind of operating in that space, just to kind of bring that to life.
Nadia Nagamootoo 39:32
I mean, I see it. Because working in this space, it means I see it often, glimmers of it. And just to be clear, it's not that you're constantly going to be leading Beyond Discomfort. We're human and that's just not reality. You can't hold yourself in such a high sort of pedestal that you think, oh, I'm constantly... You can strive to constantly be curious about yourself and learn and lead beyond, really just understand, have the courage to delve deeply about how did that trigger me?
And what does that mean in terms of my beliefs? And where is that coming from? That's what I'm... That's what Beyond Discomfort is. And I see it. I mean, there's people in the room who I've spoken to even who have said, gosh, I just, I didn't see color. And now I realize that, my goodness, what a mistake that was, right? But not to see color. I mean, this is sort of a cheerleading kind of way of being now, but which is, if I want to be an inclusive leader, I have to treat everyone the same, because that's what fairness is. And that certainty is so wonderful to hang on to. And in fact, HR, human resources for years have been telling us treat everyone the same, and then you won't be taken to tribunal.
Darin de Klerk 40:49
Equality. Right?
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:50
Equality, right? And so this concept of equity is like some people need more, some people need, I'm sorry, I don't get that. But, you know, so this leader beyond discomfort, and I, you know, again, you know, people in the room who have shared stories with me, it's just like, gosh, how wrong was I? That vulnerability, being able to say, okay, and then if someone challenges them, rather than shutting it down, actually willing to explore it, finding out, reading, speaking to people, listening to TED Talks, like just exploring and taking it upon themselves the courage to delve deeply and realize, ah, okay, I might not have had this quite the way I would. And that's sometimes this is deeply held beliefs, things that we were taught by our parents, and that we were like strong, deeply held values and beliefs that then are challenged. And that can feel tough. So actually, leading Beyond Discomfort is that psychological work of the work that you do on yourself, to recognize when you've got it wrong, and to constantly be striving to learn more about other people, and their lived experiences so that you can continue to do better and, you know, include and involve and make sure that people feel like they've been seen.
Darin de Klerk 42:06
What a lovely way to draw us towards a close. I think I'm noticing that people have been attentively sitting and listening for the last 40 minutes. And so I want to just kind of bring us to a close. I'm interested in what comes next, beyond, Beyond Discomfort. Where do we go from here?
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:26
Well, some of you in the room are keen for me to do a doctorate or a DBA or a PhD. Some of you want me on the Great British Bake Off.
Darin de Klerk 42:39
I think that, clap if you vote for...
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:43
Quite honestly, I think my husband is just hoping that none of the above happen and that I can actually spend some, like not be up at sort of five o'clock in the morning on, you know, doing work and things. But like, you know, I...
Darin de Klerk 42:58
I'm sure he wouldn't have it any other way.
Nadia Nagamootoo 43:01
Do I have another book in me that's been a common question? Look, I'll never say never, will I? But for now, I'm going to, so I think Beyond Discomfort, really, there is something here. I'm obviously going to, I mean, I would love to know as you read it, if you wouldn't mind sharing with me your thoughts, because for me, that's so precious and I respect all of you in this room. I think you are all amazing for everything that you do in your own fields and what, you know, and so to have you read and, you know, offer comments, feedback, like genuinely, I don't just want a load of compliments. That's, you know, because actually I think there's a programme potentially here, you know, beyond discomfort.How do we, what's the work, the deep work then? How do we actually get leaders to work on themselves in the way that I'm talking, right? So I think that there's something there. I wouldn't mind going and spreading the word beyond the UK. So, you know, I haven't told my husband this yet, but I might see if there's opportunities in different, you know.
Darin de Klerk 44:06
Lovely.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:07
Let's see.
Darin de Klerk 44:08
Yes.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:08
I'm just going to have fun. I'm going to have fun with it and just kind of, yeah, explore what comes from this. And then I think just trust that path and see where it takes me. I'm not ruling out the doctorate or the PhD, but.
Darin de Klerk 44:25
Or Bake Off.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:26
Or Bake Off. Someone said The Apprentice as well. I'm like, okay. Yeah.
Darin de Klerk 44:32
World is your oyster. So before we close, if anyone has any questions, we have about 10 minutes and there is a roving mic. Thank you.
Ken 44:42
Yeah. Firstly, Nadia, thanks for being a massive inspiration.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:46
Stand up, Ken.
Ken 44:48
And yeah, Nadia mentors me. So one of the main reasons why I've even gone into the D&I space in the first place. So thank you for that and massively proud of you for accomplishing this. But on to my actual question. Reading a book. So you've got D&I leaders, you've got just business leaders, etc. What's the main takeaways you want people to get from reading it?
Nadia Nagamootoo 45:13
Yeah, thanks, Ken. So, you know, if by reading the book, it just gets you to reflect that little bit about your own belief system, something that you just took for granted that you never realised about yourself. You know, at the end of each chapter, there's sort of a series of open kind of reflective questions just to provoke some thought. You know, and I'd love for, you know, maybe those questions for you to obviously think about it yourself, but also take it to your teams. And as you've been working on the website for the Beyond Discomfort website, there's a questionnaire that you can take, your teams can take. And just, it's not meant to assess you. This is not a psychological assessment. I know I'm a psychologist. I am not psychometrically evaluating you. It is simply to provoke thought. Use it as a tool and talk to your, expand some conversation, new conversations. I'd love it if there were some new conversations that just felt different, because I think that we need, I think we need different and new conversations that, and if you can create a safe space for your teams to share, imagine what you could learn if you opened up that sort of conversation with them. And so, yeah, I'd love to hear if you do. Yeah, thank you.
[Speaker 4] 46:35
Nadia, first of all, congratulations. I think, you know, it's an amazing achievement to have written the book, and I know how much time you've spent doing it, so. My question really is around people's feelings of discomfort in terms of, we all hop in all of these spaces. Sometimes leaders have a habit of getting stuck. What's your advice to that?
Nadia Nagamootoo 47:05
Yeah, leaders get stuck often, often because there's a fear. They're stuck because there's a fear, a fear of saying the wrong thing, a fear of misstepping, a fear of what's going to happen if I get it wrong. And quite honestly, the culture around sort of just cancelling people whenever they've, you know, it just doesn't help. It just further breeds that fear that they might get it wrong. I think when leaders are stuck, they need to be coached through that stuckness, quite honestly, because they need to be willing to be curious about themselves. Where does that stuckness come from? What are they holding about diversity, equity and inclusion work that jars with them? And it might jar, it might evoke emotion. And what is it that they're afraid to do? What's going on here? And so one-to-one coaching or, you know, some coaching circles, anything that can just open up a safe space for them just to explore.
Darin de Klerk 48:04
It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think what a lot of leaders know they were stuck is where my head went.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:11
If they read the book, they might.
Darin de Klerk 48:15
It's all about curiosity and self-awareness, isn't it?
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:18
Exactly.
Darin de Klerk 48:19
Yes, key messaging.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:20
Yeah, but you're right. I mean, a lot of leaders and that's why we have some of the leaders we do in the world. But we're not going to go there because that's politics.
Darin de Klerk 48:30
And we don't have time for that. We have a question here in the front.
Claire 48:34
Thank you. I'm Claire and I'm one of our business leaders. And a lot of my business leaders are proof-seeking. We love the evidence. We love the data. Help me when I go and talk to my executive colleagues. Help me with something I could say to them that would get them to connect with the book so I can encourage their maintenance kind of mindset.
Nadia Nagamootoo 49:03
Yeah, absolutely. Whenever you've got scientists or a lot of people, they just want evidence and proof. And they get so wrapped up in, well, how do I know? How much more do I know? Say I've got someone who's neurodivergent on their team. And that person in their team is saying, well, this is what I need. I'm not going to be able to, you know. And so then they adjust their leadership or what that person needs to do. But then the other person who's got exactly the same job specification is saying, well, hang on a second. How come they're doing so much less, right? So where's the equity? How do we provide for one who might need it but also create fairness in the team? And I'd love it for there to be an absolute hard kind of this is what needs to happen, right? But, you know, life isn't like that. And diversity inclusion certainly isn't like that. It's so much more complex. But what's important is that you shouldn't be afraid to delve into something even though you might not see tangible evidence for it. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? It doesn't mean it's not there, right? You know, you and I, Claire, could be walking down the street and you'll be like, oh, look at the beautiful green trees. And I'm like, Claire, they're purple, right? And you're like, no, they're definitely green. And I'm like, no, I see purple trees. How do you know that I don't see purple trees?
How can you be so sure those trees are green, right? And that's what we're working with here. You know, how can we let go of our- we love certainty. And as leaders even more so. How can we let go of that certainty and just put it to one side for a moment and be curious and just wonder how- this person's telling me something that I don't get. It doesn't add up to me. It's not one plus one is two. It's like some random number here coming out. I'm feeling uncomfortable about this, but I'm going to go with it. Let me explore a little bit further.
Darin de Klerk 51:08
I mean, you said it earlier as well, right? It's moving from head to heart as well. Holding yourself in that space. We often talk about like holding space for curiosity and-
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:19
Yeah. All right.
Darin de Klerk 51:20
Final question.
Hayley 51:21
Hi, I’m Hayley.I'm interested if in writing this book, you kind of might have been disconcerted yourself and have worked your way through that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:36
Oh, thanks, Hayley.
Darin de Klerk 51:37
Maybe we should stop there. I think time-wise we're probably-
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:39
So I'm not sure about discon- I have definitely- I've definitely felt a lack of courage to say something. Definitely. So, you know, it- there was a time, my daughter who's just here, that she was- went off for a play date. She was about five years old. And I went to collect her from- it was a white family's house. And on the way home, I was like, oh, what did you play? And she was like, we played this game called Black Man Mummy. And I was like, oh, can you expand a little bit? What's that game? Well, you know, there were these trees and we just took it in turns to run- to just creep as close as we could to the tree. And then as soon as everyone else shouted Black Man, we just ran away screaming as fast as we could. And I was like, oh, what do you do with that? You know, and so that's that moment, that moment of huge amount of discomfort. What do I do with this? Right. So I had an age-appropriate conversation with my daughter. I'm trying to encourage her to empathise with how that might make me feel if people, you know, as a person of colour was, you know, running away, screaming from me and what that meant and all of that. And then even though I knew that the next- what should happen is that I should have a conversation with the family.
I never did. We were fairly new at that time to the school. And I just- that fear that what happens if, you know, they take it badly?What happens? What about my daughter? And what if they didn't- she suddenly found out she can't play with that particular child anymore.And what if, what if, what if? And I never said anything. And, you know, that's- there's that fear. How do you show allyship? How do you stand up? Even though it might be risky. So, yeah.
Darin de Klerk 53:56
And I think also how do you forgive yourself and keep moving forwards, right? Like you said, there are moments when we will be in this beyond discomfort space and there are moments when we'll be down here and not acting in our kind of most courageous selves. And I think it's holding that lightly for ourselves as well. If you have any more questions, if you want to pick up with Nadia, she'll be at the back signing books. And one final plug, I think, was just for-
Nadia Nagamootoo 54:20
So, we're doing some research to build a workbook that sits alongside Beyond Discomfort. And so if you know, if you were interested in being interviewed to participate and to share your stories about when you've led Beyond Discomfort, please let us know. And also, obviously, pass it on.And if you've got people, you know, who might want to participate. And as Darin said, there is an after party. Of course there is. Of course there is. So, that's just going to be permanently up now because then you'll know where you're going. Thank you so much.
Darin de Klerk 55:01
Thank you. Thank you for sharing with us.
Nadia Nagamootoo 55:12
That concludes this Why Care Beyond Discomfort The Launch episode. I'm still riding the high from that evening and all that has followed since. If you'd like to discuss Beyond Discomfort in your organisation, please get in touch to find out more. I'm always open to conversations about delivering keynotes, facilitated leadership discussions, workshops, and full inclusive leadership programmes. It's been a pleasure to share my special evening with you.
Thanks for tuning in.
