Why Care? 45 Normalising the conversation with Sarah Mulindwa
“ So he was like, Sarah, I love what you're doing. I think there's such a big hole in the market, within Africa as a whole, but in Uganda, there's nobody talking about sexual health. There's nobody talking about relationships and dating and the perils and the trials and tribulations of all of that. And I think, you know, you can come, I think if you were to come here, you'll be able to do loads of work. So it was never something that I sort of aimed at doing. Somebody opened my eyes to the idea that that was even a possibility. Because if we think about, you know, different cultures, and especially in African cultures and a lot of Asian cultures as well, these things are completely off topic, like you don't talk about these things when it comes to sexual health, Yeah, completely taboo. And so the idea of talking about sex education in Africa it was never on the menu.”
In this episode of Why Care? host Nadia Nagamootoo speaks with Sarah Mulindwa, who has uniquely combined her background in nursing with her passion for fashion, to become an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. Sarah shares her journey from the healthcare sector to the fashion industry, highlighting the challenges and rewards of such a significant career transition. She also discusses her work in sexual health education and the importance of representation and diversity in both fashion and healthcare. This episode is a must-listen for leaders wanting to find out what more they can do to make sexual health more widely spoken about, and how to make menopause part of normal conversation.
Highlights:
Sarah's Career Transition: From a dedicated nursing career to making a bold move into the fashion industry, Sarah shares the challenges and motivations behind her significant career shift.
Diversity in Fashion: Sarah discusses the need for greater representation in the fashion industry and how her work is helping to break down barriers.
Empowering Through Sexual Health: Sarah shares her work in sexual health education, emphasising the importance of accessible information and resources.
The Intersection of Fashion and Health: Discover how Sarah integrates her healthcare background with her passion for fashion to drive change and promote diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Leading with Compassion: Sarah emphasises the importance of compassion in leadership, both in healthcare and fashion, and how it has guided her journey.
Key Takeaways
Sarah’s journey highlights the power of reinvention and the impact of bringing diverse perspectives to different industries.
Her transition from nursing to fashion illustrates the importance of following one’s passion while also addressing industry-wide issues like diversity and inclusion.
Emphasises the significance of integrating past experiences into new careers to create unique and impactful contributions.
Promoting diversity and sexual health requires both awareness and action, driven by compassionate leadership.
Sarah’s work in sexual health education showcases the need for accessible and inclusive resources to empower individuals.
The conversation underscores the role of leaders in fostering environments where diversity and inclusion can thrive.
Sarah’s journey highlights the importance of addressing both career transitions and health challenges like menopause in the workplace.
Menopause is often overlooked in professional settings, and Sarah emphasises the need for more open conversations and supportive policies.
By advocating for inclusive health education, Sarah encourages leaders to create environments where women can thrive through all stages of life, including menopause.
Guest Bio
Sarah Mulindwa is a former nurse turned fashion industry professional and advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. With a background in healthcare, Sarah brings a unique perspective to her work in fashion, focusing on breaking down barriers and promoting representation. She is also deeply involved in sexual health education, striving to make information and resources more accessible to all. Sarah's journey is a testament to the power of reinvention and the importance of compassion in leadership.
Links
The charity Sarah supports - Reach A Hand Uganda (a youth-centred organisation focusing on youth empowerment programs with emphasis on Livelihoods & Skills Development, Behavior Change Communication, Sexual Reproductive Health & Rights, and HIV/AIDS awareness and prevention): https://reachahand.org/
Avenir Consulting: https://linktr.ee/avenirconsultingservices
Transcript
Sarah Mulindwa 00:00
So I don't think there's anything wrong with somebody wearing something from another culture, but, and it's not so much the people that wear it that are the problem, it's when it goes mainstream and then they'll put certain women on a pedestal and call them, oh wow, like they are the pioneers of this long existing trend that has been existing for thousands and thousands of years in certain cultures, never been appreciated before, never been put in the mainstream, and the women or men who, you know, traditionally wear these cultural looks and, you know, wear, they don't get celebrated, they're not on glossy magazines being called the trendy. It's the same theme all the time, it's that they steal a look, put it on somebody who they feel more comfortable because that's, I suppose, their belief that the audience would feel, and the audience is, it just doesn't even work that way, because that's how we love different cultures, because we like, we appreciate it on other people. But I think when you steal it and you rename it, rebrand it, don't even give the credit as to who it came from, it's incredibly disrespectful, it's incredibly tone deaf, and it's an example of racism. And people often think of racism as like, you know, negative words that you could say about another person or, you know, somehow discriminating, but actually cutting people out of their own traditions and their own culture and then giving it to somebody else and
giving them the credit and then celebrating them, that is racism. So yeah, and I think, where do you draw the line? I think celebrate the culture and involving the people from said culture and making it a trend, don't try to whitewash it to make it more palpable for an audience.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:33
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottomline performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring?
I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello and welcome to episode 45 of Why Care. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. It's not often you hear the words sexual health and fashion in the same sentence, but the fabulous Sarah Mulindwa pulls it off with both beauty and style. Sarah is a sexual health advisor and educator, TV presenter and radio personality. With over 17 years as a qualified nurse, she's been practicing as a senior sexual health and HIV nurse for over 13 years, having trained at the world-renowned clinic 5016 Street in Soho, London. She's best known as the witty and glamorous nurse presenter on Channel 4's hit show, The Sex Clinic, where she's part of a team of sexual health experts who cut through Britain's sex secrets.
Alongside this nursing and sexual health educator career, she is also well known in the creative industry as a fashion stylist and radio presenter. In this episode, Sarah shares the diversity and inclusion challenges within the fashion industry, including calling out instances of cultural appropriation. We also discuss the discrimination in the film and media industries faced by women as their bodies go through menopause and change with age. Sarah shares her work with young people, particularly from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, to provide them with access to vital information around dating, sex, sexual health, grooming and more. She also shares the incredible work she's doing in Uganda to make the conversation around sexual health less taboo and help educate and empower people. I know you're going to love this conversation.
Enjoy.
Sarah, I am so excited to have you on Why Care. Thank you so much for saying yes and joining me.
Sarah Mulindwa 04:47
Oh, you're so welcome, Nadia. I know we've been speaking about this for weeks now. We're finally here, so I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:54
This is an Athena Effect relationship because we met only in mid-March at the Dame Kelly Holmes's Women's Empowerment event. I really appreciated our conversation, even though it was very short over lunch, just that your presence or your aura, there's something about you that I just really want to get to know you. I'm delighted that we're having this conversation and I get to know you a little bit better through our conversation today.
Sarah Mulindwa 05:26
Thank you. Yes, seeing you at the event because I got more of an insight into you. I was the lucky one between the two of us because I got more of an insight into you when you were part of the panel and giving your talk. I just thought, oh my gosh, she's incredible. It just opened up my eyes to just a different world and a different approach to looking at the workforce and how women can approach it and how you work to better that and make it more diverse. I just thought it was brilliant. When you came up to me, I was like, I was a bit of a fangirl. When you suggested, oh, let's keep in touch, I was like, yes, let's talk bits of the grounds. Three months later, here we are. It's incredible. It's a nice all-round experience now.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:04
Yeah, I know. For those who don't know you now, you've been on TV, you're a very well-known person. However, they might not know fully your background. Actually, it's a really fascinating background because you started in health and moved into fashion and now we're still working in health and bridged the two. I'd love for you to share a little bit, highlights of that career because it's fascinating.
Sarah Mulindwa 06:34
Yeah, it's a funny one because I've done so many different things that on paper are just not related at all. Like you said, I somehow managed to try and do all of those things. A lot of people would know me from TV. I used to do a show for Channel 4 called The Sex Clinic, which I found out is going to be airing again soon, which is great. I did that through my background as a nurse. What I studied at university was nursing. I worked in acute medicine for the first five years of my career. I've been a nurse for 17 years now. For the first five years, I specialized in acute medicine. After that, I decided in five years within my nursing career, I thought, I really want to try something else. I started my training as a nurse when I was 17. I was a year younger than you would normally go to university. By the time I was in my early twenties, I was already a qualified nurse. I had this proper profession that was very serious, especially for a young girl. I always wanted to work in fashion. This was before we had your Instagram and your Twitter and social media in general. Fashion was always something that I was passionate about, but I never saw it as a feasible career path, just because I didn't know anyone in fashion around me. It just seemed a little bit unattainable. I still loved being a nurse. After five years of acute medicine, I decided that I wanted to specialize as a nurse. I thought, what can I do that I've not done before, that I don't have that much knowledge in, and I would love to grow in that field and what I'm interested in as a nurse? A colleague of mine at the time was like, why don't you do sexual health? There's a clinic that's part of the trust, and it's off-site. It's a clinic in Soho. You do normal hours, quote-unquote, because at this time, I was a nurse for five years. I was doing weekends. I was doing nights.
I was 21, working night shifts. All my friends would be in the big garden in the summer. It was quite a full-on thing. I thought, you know what? I need something that's a little bit more chilled, a bit more laid back. At the same time, I thought, I'm really going to go for this whole fashion thing. Then I decided to specialize in sexual health, and I absolutely loved it. It was completely different to anything that I did on the wards. I learned so much. I did all my trainings in-house, and I decided, you know what? I think this is where my niche is in my nursing career. I stuck to my sexual health, advanced in that, got promoted to a senior nurse, did outreach services with young people, sex workers, people in the LGBTQ community, and just a variety of work that is so unique and so special, and just very exciting all the time, which I loved. Then in the middle of all of that, I launched my career in fashion. I worked as a stylist. I did red carpet as a celebrity stylist.
I worked as a fashion editor for eight years. Then that sort of took me into presenting. Then I ended up doing a radio show for a local radio station. The show was all about fashion and anything that was trendy, so we'd go and we'd do live shows at fashion week. Then from that, that's kind of how I started to become known within the media space. Then everyone knew me as a fashion insider. I was a stylist. I was at front row at red carpets. I was going to all these cool events. Then you get your picture taken, you get in the press, and people just started to know me as the fashion girl kind of thing. I loved it because I was doing both. I was a part-time nurse, doing all my sexual health and still doing that, whilst also building my career in fashion. It was a lovely balance. I love that I've got to do all the things that I'm passionate about simultaneously. Then I got approached by Channel 4. A friend of mine who worked in casting at the time, she knew somebody who was working on the sex clinic. She said, oh, Sarah, Channel 4 are working on this new show. It's all about sexual health and dating and relationships. They're looking for a presenter. They're looking for a nurse, a health advisor, and a doctor to be a bit like Embarrassing Bodies, but specifically for sexual health. I just said, well, you're a presenter and you're a sexual health nurse, so this is great. I thought, wow, never in a million years did I ever think that I'd be able to marry my two professions together. That's a little bit of my background. It's very varied.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:46
It is. Actually, what I'd love to do is delve into both aspects of the industries that you work in, both fashion and health and sexual health, in our conversation. There's so much around diversity, equity, inclusion that's wrapped in both of those industries. To kick off, let's start with the fashion industry. For me, on the outside, I'm not big on the fashion. I don't read fashion magazines. I'm much on the outside of this industry. All I have seen really is the film Devil Wears Prada. And that's my insight.
Sarah Mulindwa 11:27
I think they're doing a remake of that as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:30
What a fabulous film. From a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens, when I watch it now, I'm like, oh my gosh, this industry is shocking. How elitist, how all about what you look like, whether your face fits. Is it like that? Certainly, historically, been typically less diverse models. The top models, if you look at their diversity characteristics, it's been less diverse. Do you see that improving? What's it like on the inside?
Sarah Mulindwa 12:00
Yeah. I started in the fashion industry about, it must be 12 or 13 years ago now. Within that time, so much has changed. I started at a very pinnacle time during the fashion industry because I think it was just before social media was a thing. Before to get into the fashion industry, and the reason why I never really pursued a career pathway in that direction was because I never saw people who look like me. Like you said, it is very elitist. You have to be from a certain background. There's a lot of nepotism evolved as well. Careers in fashion are traditionally reserved for white middle-class people. If you're a person of color from a working class background, like myself, you're not really going to see anyone that reflects or represents you in the fashion industry. You can open up magazines and see campaigns, and you can see diversity in that, but I wasn't going in. I've done a little bit of modeling. I've done it here and there. If somebody approaches me and says, I would like to do it, great, but I always wanted to work behind the scenes. I never had any interest in being at the forefront. I always wanted to be a dress people for magazines and red carpets and that kind of thing. That was always my passion. When I was doing my research, there was very few people who looked like me. The ones who did worked within specific spaces, so within the R&B and hip-hop world. I saw a lot of the stylists that were there. Then they looked like me, but it was like you had to be within your community and then thrive there.
It wasn't just like, oh, you can just pick up any glossy magazine off the shelf and see someone that looked at you. If you think about your top magazines that we can all think of, there's just not that many people. When you look at the editors and the deputy editors and the people that own it, there is a sort of theme. I'd say for sure, there historically has been that. Again, it's just because it is an elitist industry and it is sort of reserved. There's not that much money in the fashion industry. A lot of people think, oh, you work in fashion, you make loads of money. It's like you're either making a lot of money or you're not making any money at all, essentially. It takes a big jump. Then it's very fickle. Unfortunately, people think, oh, people in fashion can be a bit snobby and a bit snooty. To be honest, I never had a terrible experience in that. I think it's probably my approach to it, but there is that thing of it is very cutthroat and people will sell their grandmother to get to the top and that kind of thing. It is sort of cutthroat in that way. What I would say is, and like I said, I started about 12, 13 years ago in the industry.
When you look at it now, and I think that is the beauty and the power of social media, is that everyone has a voice now. Everyone has a platform. Now, even though I don't work within the fashion industry in the way I used to, now I'm sort of more, because I did all my graft of dragging suitcases and setting up shoots and doing all of that. Now I just sort of attend the events and just have a good time. I don't want to go back to being a stylist and such, but now I work with brands in a different capacity and that kind of thing. Now you see more representation. You see on social media, before there was only a handful of ways to get into the fashion industry, whereas now you don't need to depend on an internship, a magazine, which is so hard to get. You don't need to depend on having an auntie who happens to work for this person or your uncle's a photographer or this, because not everyone has those contacts. So now you can create your own community within social media. And we see it now all the time. Now you've got influencers who sort of do their own thing, brands notice them, and because of equity and diversion and inclusion, everyone now knows that actually, if you don't represent everybody, you're going to fall behind in terms of your growth and all the rest of it, because now it's more than ever. I think we live in such a world where we're much more connected than we used to. We understand the plight and the struggles that other people go through, whether it's because of your race, whether it's because of your body type, whether it's because of your age, all these things that we're so more in tune with other people's experiences. And that's what social media has done is really given everyone a voice to say, you know what, this is not okay. I want to be seen, and representation is so important.
So look at somebody that looks like you. It gives you that confidence. It makes you think, do you know what, if Nadia could do that, you know, I could do that, or if Sarah could do that, you know, she looks like me, she comes from a similar background to me, you know, she's from a working class background, or she's this or she's that, then it makes you feel like, yeah, you can. And maybe looking back at it now, if there was that representation before, perhaps I probably would have taken a career in fashion more seriously. Like, actually, this is attainable, whereas it wasn't before. But at the same time, I always wanted to be a nurse before I wanted to work in fashion. So for me, sort of worked out in a great way in the time in which I went into the fashion industry was great. It was just before social media took off. And then it did.
And then I benefited from that. But at the same time, I also, you know, went to university, and I'm so glad that I did have like a proper profession and a career outside of fashion, because it is very fickle. It's not, you know, nothing's guaranteed in it. So I always had something else to fall back on. So I'm glad that everything worked out the way it did for me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:13
Yeah. So there's something there about the change that's happened. And you're saying it's because the industry itself has recognised actually, we need to be more representative here. Do you still, despite the drive for more diversity, and to have more representation of people in the industry, not just models, but also stylists and other people working in the industry? Do you still experience bias? You know, have you had any personal kind of experience or story that you can share that says actually, there's still work to be done here?
Sarah Mulindwa 17:51
Yeah, I think when it comes to, I think every brand, every organisation is now very good at understanding the sort of visual representation that's needed. So if a brand is doing a campaign, they know to put people from, you know, different backgrounds, sexualities and everything. That's great, because that's what representation is. But really, the representation and where it matters is behind the scenes. It's the people that sit on boards that make the decisions. I mean, we've seen it where a few brands have gone viral for a campaign that was really tone deaf.
I think Pepsi got in trouble once. I think H&M, they got in trouble once for something that was, that came across as really tone deaf. And then you think, well, the reason why these things, because in your head, you're looking at something, and then everyone kicks off about it, because it's quite, it's like, how did you get to that point where nobody on the team thought, you know what, I think this is inappropriate. And those things tend to happen, because the people who do make the decisions that sit at the top do all look kind of the same. So they know what to do in terms of people, putting people forward to represent their brands or the campaigns. But really, the diversity that's needed the most is within the people that work behind the scenes that make the decisions. So I think what I found when I was coming up as a stylist, I think I'm at one deputy fashion editor of a magazine. But other than that, there wasn't really. And I also noticed that unless you kind of knew people, or you spoke a certain way, or looked a certain way, then it was a bit harder. And I remember doing radio as well. And it was always quite typical, they came from the same background, sort of middle class, same race, same sort of connections kind of thing. And then their careers were just sort of skyrocket. And I felt like I would have to work 10 times harder just to get even half a step to what they would.
So then when COVID hit, I was getting to the point where I felt, you know what, I'm exhausted. I've put in so much grass, and I can see other people are doing way much better than I am, not because they're better than me, for sure. And I knew it wasn't that. But I was like, look, these are immutable characteristics that I can't change what background I'm from or whatever in order to get to the top. So I thought, you know what, I don't need this. It was several years after working in the industry that I thought, you know what, I think I've, and I'm quite proud and happy to where I've got, you know, I did loads of amazing work. I worked with some incredible people. And even sometimes I think, wow, I actually did it. I always wanted to work in fashion, always wanted to be a stylist. And I did it. And I got a fashion editor role. And I did, you know, lots of red carpet and working with different celebrities and people in the public industry, and models. And I'm really proud of the work that I've done. But there is a part of me that thinks, if certain things were not an issue, where would my career have gone? Like, I think I probably would have stuck to it a lot longer. I think I would have gotten a lot further. And that is just the truth. And that is just like, I know that firsthand. So yeah, I've definitely seen experiences where I've worked with people, and then they've been handed opportunities that I, you know, that I would have thought that I would have deserved, being that I was there before them, I worked harder than them and all the rest of this.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:51
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You mentioned something there, which is some of the faux pas that a couple of the top brands have made. And there have been other incidences where designers and brands have been criticised by their designs being influenced by different cultures at different ethnic cultures, right? They use certain cues or motifs in the design to bring into the fashion world, but they're doing it in a gimmicky way. They're doing it to sell more, right? And that's known as cultural appropriation. It's something obviously that is not okay, is discriminatory. It's the line in the design world being respectful of another culture and being really just wanting to embrace and spotlight the beauty of the fashion of another culture and bringing it into your designs in a respectful way versus the cultural appropriation, which obviously is considered racist.
Sarah Mulindwa 22:56
Yeah, because there was something that happened quite recently. I think it was a magazine, and it was a group of white women, and I think they were on holidays and they were wearing saris. And then they said, oh, this is like a new summer chic. And they called the look everything under the sun, except for what it was. And it was interesting because it wasn't with brown women who that is their cultural wear, and they didn't call it what it was. There was nobody who looked like that's their traditional wear. And they sort of made it into, oh, this is like a new trend, and it's very chic, and this is very boho. And rightly so. There was a lot of backlash on the back of that. And you're thinking, absolutely, because, and I think that's where the problem lies, is that, because I don't think there's anything wrong with, you know, showing, like you said, you know, showing appreciation. We live in such a diverse world. Now, of course, we're going to be influenced by other cultures.
And, you know, from the food we eat, we have diverse friendship, we have more access to other people's cultures. So I don't think there's anything wrong with somebody wearing something from another culture. And it's not so much the people that wear it that are the problem, it's when it goes mainstream, and then the magazines that print it, and then they'll put certain women on a pedestal and call them, oh, wow, like they are the pioneers of this long existing trend that has been existing for thousands and thousands of years in certain cultures, never been appreciated before, never been put in the mainstream. And the women or men who, you know, traditionally wear these cultural, you know, wear, they don't get celebrated. They're not on glossy magazines being called the trendy. It's the same theme all the time. It's like, they'll steal a look, put it on somebody who they feel more comfortable because that's, I suppose, their belief that the audience would feel and it just doesn't even work that way.
People would appreciate because that's how we love different cultures, because we love, we appreciate it on other people. But I think when you steal it, and you rename it, rebrand it, don't even give the credit as to who it came from. It's incredibly disrespectful. It's incredibly tone deaf. And it's an example of racism. And people often think of racism as like negative words that you could say about another person or somehow discriminating, but actually cutting people out of their own traditions, and their own culture, and then giving it to somebody else and giving them the credit and then celebrating them. That is racism. So where do you draw the line? I think celebrating the culture and involving the people from said culture, and making it a trend, don't try to whitewash it to make it palpable for an audience, so that other people can be. Because I remember, I think the same thing happened with like a hair trend. And I think there was all these books, and I think it was Kim Kardashian or something, and she wore some bantu knots or something. And they completely, they called them boxer braids, which is not the name. You know, and it was like, Oh my God, this is like so cool and so chic. And as I've never put a black woman with braids on their magazines to say, Oh my God, this is a cool trend. And then I remember one well known Black radio DJ, she was invited to an event where they were doing people's braids. And she said on the advert, so she said she went on their Instagram page. And not one woman was brown or black or look remotely like her. And it was all you know, it was completely whitewashed.
And she was like, No, I'm not gonna be a part of this because you want me to now come and co sign it to look back. I agree with this. However, you've completely appropriated a culture, you've not given the credit where the credit is due. And now you want to capitalize on other people's hard work and, you know, innovations. And yeah, and we see that a lot. But I think the good thing, again, with social media is people don't take it lying down anymore before you can get away with so much and just complain with your friends having a coffee. Whereas now, no people be, you know, people be verbal, it will go viral, it will be a conversation piece. And yeah, yes. And people will learn the lesson a lot quicker.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:36
Yeah, that's it's so clear. I think how you've just articulated the difference between the two. And I think a lot of industries I mean, we're obviously talking about the fashion industry here. But a lot of industries could learn a lot from translating that fashion example to their own. I'd love to now just move the conversation to wellness, and particularly women's wellness. But highlighting so many high profile celebrity women who have been in the spotlight for their fashion, who are there on the big screen, who we admire at a younger age, and who are now really being quite vocal about what happened to them as they aged, as they entered their 40s, as they went through the menopause, and some of them really experiencing some tough menopause transitions, as well as when they were pregnant, and how that the fear of losing out on roles. And whilst we're talking about the fashion industry, I think the movie industry and the TV, it's a similar space where what you look like really matters. Because something here isn't there about the toxicity of that culture, which is around women needing to cover or be silenced for what's going on for them from a wellness as something completely natural, like the menopause, going through that process and fear of being cancelled as a result. Can you speak a little bit to that? And what has caused that initially? And then what do we do about it?
Sarah Mulindwa 28:13
Yeah, and I think because we know and ageism is something that I don't think we speak about enough. And I think it, right, of course, it can affect men as well. But it mostly does affect women. And when we think of women, we think of, you know, being maternal and being, you know, as, you know, child bearers and stuff. And so a lot of times your worth as a woman is placed on your ability to reproduce, essentially. And so when it comes to menopause, because we know that menopause is typically something that happens to you in your sort of late 40s to 50s, or it can happen a lot earlier or later, but roundabout then. And so it's kind of as a woman, you're, it's like there's a deadline to your worth and your youth. Yes. And it's like, well, after you get past that point, it's almost like you're running a course kind of thing.
You're no longer seen as maybe as attractive or as, you know, as sexy or as wanted by the general public or, you know, and all those things that are very superficial. And so as a woman, as you get older, because it's engraved in you from a young age, you know, that menopause is the change. And that change is physical, it's psychological. I'm no longer of childbearing age. I'm an older woman now. And of course, it can affect your roles and things. And this is because you go through the physical changes in menopause. We know that, and it varies from woman to woman. For some women, it's not that bad. For a lot of women that go through so many changes that do affect their day-to-day life, it affects their moods, it affects them physically, emotionally, all of it. And I think now, because you were talking before about women who have been in the public eye from a young age, and now they're getting older and the conversation's being had, which I think is incredible. One person that I can think of, somebody who I, for as long as I can remember, from as little as I can remember seeing on my TV screens is Davina McCall.
And she's been doing so much now about menopause, because now, yes, she's been in the industry for so long. And I think she's one of the most incredible women in terms of being at the forefront, because she's very fit, she's very active, she looks incredible, and she's one of the most successful TV presenters in our generation. And she's really opened up our conversation about how menopause has affected her, and how it's a conversation that we don't talk about a lot. And I've done some work with, you know, I've done some panels where we're talking about menopause, and how society views women, and why is it that that is so taboo and so taboo to talk about. And it's a bit, it's a little bit like periods, you know, periods are quite taboo to talk about. And, you know, the changes that women go through on a monthly, like every month, like clockwork, your mood is going to change, you're going to go through pain, your hormones are going to be all over the place. When it comes to women, we've seen as the ones who, I think it's because we do bear children and give birth, which is like, probably the most painful thing that anyone can go, I've never gone through it. But I'm sure you and other women can attend to that. But it's one of the most painful, physically challenging. Yeah, right. Challenging thing that you can do. So it's almost seen as that. Yeah, it's so it's like, oh, because you can do that, then women are just strong by nature.
And you can give birth, you know, what's the period, you know, everything else is seen as minor in comparison. But to be honest, you'd rather give birth two or three, four times, and then it's done. But something like your period or menopause, these are things that are ongoing consistently, when you're done with your periods every month, then you go into menopause. And this is a massive chunk of your whole life. So until the first 60, 50, 60 years of your life, your hormonal changes are going to affect you in one way or another, from the time you're a teenager, and now it's even earlier, even preteens are starting their period, all the way up until you finish menopause. That's your entire lifespan, practically, where you're having changes that affect you, your hormones are changing, your moods are changing, but we don't speak about it. And then, you know, when we talk about inclusivity and diversity in the workplace, and how women are viewed, and if you know, if you're a woman with a strong opinion, or she must be in a period, or she must be menopausal, and all these kind of things that and so what you find is that women try to, you know, make themselves smaller, even though they're going through all sorts of changes.
I mean, I can speak for myself when I have my periods, it's the worst thing, like my moods are all over the place. But I'm so conscious of the way I, if I'm in like a work scenario, and I'm in my period, I try to, like, I'm very conscious of the way that I am, because I know I'm that little bit more snappy, or, and I don't want people to think, oh, she's aggressive, or it's a hormonal thing. But you just know that as a woman, how you present yourself, you're always going to be, it's never enough, you're either too mean, too mild, or you're too aggressive, too forward. And it's that kind of thing. And then when you do go through something like the menopause, it's going to affect your day to day life. And let's say you are, you know, an actress or somebody in the public eye whose job is really stressful, you're working 13, 14, 15, 16 hour day shifts, having to remember lines having to, you know, there's not a lot of space to, you know, to have even five minutes yourself. I mean, I've filmed shows with I remember with one of my colleagues, and she was going through the menopause and was filming like a 16 hour day, and it was four days back to back. And she really, really struggled. And it was so but she didn't, you know, we had that conversation between me, her and somebody else. And we just had that within it. But she didn't speak to the producers, or the directors about this, because there was a lot of shame attached to that. And she thought, well, if I speak about this, maybe they'll judge me or like, find someone else. Yeah, they'll find someone else is not going through that who can turn up and be you know, on the ball, so to speak.
So this really affected us. So she just had to soldier through all of this. And it was very, very difficult. And I could physically see how difficult it was for her to go through a four day, 16 hour days of filming. And I was like, you know, why don't you speak to this person, that person, and she really was adamant, she didn't want to speak, because it's just not something that's spoken about. And I think if it was, then things would be put in place. And people would understand that you just need to make adjustments like it like any, like anyone else is going through anything, whether it's a physical disability or anything else in the workplace does have a duty of care to put things in place for people to be able to do their work and not, you know, still participate in society and do the things that they love, even though they're going through some, you know, health changes. And I think it's all about opening up the conversation.
And like you said, there are many women who are now going through it and they've been very vocal about it. And these are women who, you know, oppose the girls and they're still seen as sexy and admirable and all these things, but they go through it. And it's incredible for younger women who will at some point, inevitably go through that journey to know that, oh, okay, I can understand why I feel this way and I can prepare myself. But when nobody speaks about it, and there's shame attached to it, then yeah, you just suffer in silence. And a lot of women did and still do. So I think it's important that we continue that conversation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:56
Yeah, for sure. And there are some really high profile women now talking very openly and sharing their experience and being very clear that this isn't okay. Why are you asking me questions or pointing about what I look like? What does that got to do with the conversation we're having right now? Meryl Streep's brilliant. Jennifer Aniston's, you know, out there talking about it. She's fantastic. I mean, there's just so many women now who, yeah, really high profile in their younger years when they were really put on a pedestal for their beauty. Yes, that's it, isn't it? How they now are talking about it. I think that's really going to see the shift that we need at least to have some openness.
Sarah Mulindwa 35:42
Yeah, right. And you know, men don't suffer from the same, you know, judgment. No one's asking Brad Pitt or Leonardo DiCaprio about their looks and it always falls on women. It's like your worth is tied to your physical attributes. And it's like, no, we need to move away from that. And these are professional women. These are successful women, brilliant actors and actresses. And yeah, as you go through all that work, put in all that effort, achieve all these incredible things, and then everything in the end is reduced to how you look. It's just, it's so soul destroying. And I'm so glad that women like that are standing up and saying it's not okay. Like I've got more to bring to the table than my looks. And yes, it's not okay.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:23
Exactly.
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5016 Street is where you've worked for some time. How long have you worked there?
Sarah Mulindwa 37:14
13 years.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:16
Yeah, 13 years. A long time. And maybe you could just talk about the work you do there, because I'd like to move on to the work you do in sex education now. And particularly, you've got a very clear purpose around supporting young girls from certain socioeconomic backgrounds who might have less access to this information and knowledge. So tell me a little bit about the work that you do, but specifically, what is it about the young women, young girls, in this lower socioeconomic background who need that extra support?
Sarah Mulindwa 37:52
Yeah, so within about, I'd say the first couple of years when I started at D Street, because we do so many outreach services tailored to specific groups. So we do something, a lot for gay men, trans clinics, sex workers. And so when I started, what I really wanted to do, because I love young people, I feel like I connect with young people really well. So we had a service called the Young People's Clinic. And for a few years, I was the lead nurse for that. So what I would do is I would go once or twice a week, and I think it was a Tuesday and a Friday. And that clinic was because there was a few schools around there. And a lot of the children that went to the school were from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. And so less likely to access services, more likely to be, especially young girls, more likely to be groomed within gangs and things like that.
So I was really passionate about working with that specific demographic. And so, yeah, I'll go and I'll do my clinic twice a week, it was a dropping clinic, and then they'll come to me. We do outreach, I do outreach services in local schools around. And I used to do a drop-in center at the local community center where like the young teenagers would hang around there. And for me, that was the most rewarding part in all the sort of work that I've done within sexual health. Because I think young people, you know, they're so inquisitive.
They're so, and especially now, I think they're a lot more sharper. And I know there's been talk in the media about looking at sexual health for young people. And I think the government was saying they were going to scrap certain elements and things like that. And I think it's a shame because young people now need comprehensive sex and relationship education more than ever. You know, when we grew up, we didn't have the internet, we didn't have a phone where you're exposed to so much information, misinformation, stuff that you're not even looking for. I mean, think of TikTok, the amount of stories that you hear of, you know, and it doesn't even matter how many restrictions you can put on there, somehow things get filtered through and young people are exposed to all sorts of things. And nobody's trying to explain this to them. And we're not adapting the education so that it's in line with the current needs of young people now. And when you think about the internet and things like internet grooming of young people, we hear these stories, we see them on the news, we see them on social media, we know that it's a thing.
But where's the safeguarding for young people? And for me, I think it starts in the communities. I mean, first and foremost, it starts at home. But also, not everybody comes from a background where sex is spoken about. Most people don't have that conversation at home. I know I never had that conversation at home.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:22
I didn't.
Sarah Mulindwa 40:23
And again, it's because our parents did have those conversations and their parents didn't. And so it's just all passed down.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:29
Exactly.
Sarah Mulindwa 40:30
And it's not to vilify and put blame on the parents. It's just you know what and if your parents didn't speak about it, you feel naturally awkward to have certain conversations. And I think we need to have more public campaigns. I think we need to open up that conversation. We need to look at the dangers that young people do face, not just in schools, but social media. I mean, when you were younger, you'd be able to go to school. And even if you didn't have the best experience, you could go home and home was like a safe haven, disconnects a little bit. You don't have that anymore. It's on your phones, there's group chats, there's Snapchat, there's TikTok and there's all these things.
And nobody's trying to look at how we can make all these spaces safer for young people and how we can better educate young people about the dangers of grooming, what that might look like, people talking to you online, just making young people more aware and also giving them the confidence and the language to be able to know their bodies, know body autonomy, talk to them about things like consent, how to whistleblow, how to talk to an adult that you can trust if you feel unsafe, whether it's online or at home or anywhere. And so when I would do my clinic, that was a great thing because I built this rapport with the young people. So we'd look forward to, and this was when I was about, yeah, I was in my mid 20s at that time. And I looked a lot younger than what I did. And I would dress a certain way strategically. So they'll always be able to see themselves in me. So they'll be like, oh my God, miss, I love your trainers. Oh, I love you. And so you build that kind of relationship. And I loved it because they would then, you know, share so much with me. And then I would be in a position to put safeguarding things and then be able to talk to the teachers, you know, and then they who can escalate it to the school. But I think, yeah, we need more. And unfortunately, that clinic, because of, I think, budget cuts or whatever.
And that was quite some time ago. And so that clinic, I don't think that service runs anymore. But these are the kind of things that I'm doing outside of the clinic and things that I want to do outside of the clinic, because I saw how beneficial it was to young people and how well received it was. And it was just an open space for, and it's specifically young girls, for them to talk about, you know, dating, boys, sometimes it could even be, it could just be about school, you know, what subjects they like, what they were struggling and just, and through just normal day to day conversations, you learn a little bit more, and then I'll unpack certain things and learn that, okay, you know, she's speaking to a boy, but he's pressuring her to send pictures of, you know, nude photographs, and they will have that conversation.
And then I'd be able to intervene where it was appropriate, you know, and speak to her, and then you'll give them that confidence to know that actually, if I don't feel comfortable doing something, I don't have to. And just sometimes it just needs somebody to give them that confidence and to know that you are so young, you've got your whole adult life, this phase in your life is so short, never, you know, and you just kind of have those conversations. So for me, being the lead nurse for that service was, to this day, I think, my favourite part of my job and my career was doing that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 43:23
I can imagine how rewarding it is when you are able to have that conversation that they wouldn't have with anyone else, and be able to support them and make sure that they're safe. Just in terms of the work that you're doing in Uganda, because I'd love just to kind of, it is connected to this work that you've just spoken about. What are you doing in Uganda? And what's the sort of the charitable things that you're working on at the moment?
Sarah Mulindwa 43:48
Yeah, so I've been going back and forth to Uganda for the past, I'd say two years, and I met a friend of a friend who works as a publicist. And he started following me on Instagram, and he saw all the work that I was doing here, when you know, doing a lot of sex education and things like that. And he knew that I was from there originally. So he was like, you know what, Sarah, there's, I love what you're doing. You know, I think there's such a big hole in the market in this space within Africa as a whole, but in Uganda, and there's nobody talking about sexual health, there's nobody talking about relationships and dating and the perils and the trials and tribulations of all of that. And I think if you were to come here, you'd be able to do loads of work.
So it was never something that I aimed at doing, it was kind of somebody opened up my eyes to the idea that that was a bit of possibility. Because if you think about, you know, different cultures, especially in African cultures, and a lot of Asian cultures as well, these things are completely off topic, like you don't talk about these things when it comes to sexual health.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:47
Taboo.
Sarah Mulindwa 44:47
Yeah, completely taboo. And so the idea of talking about sex education in Africa, it was never on the menu. I get that. Yeah. And I think that was probably showing my ignorance in a way, because ever since then, so what I do now, every three to four months, I go to Kampala, do work, there's a couple of, there's a charity that I work with called Reach A Hand. And it's all about, you know, reproductive health and supporting young, particularly young women and girls and boys as well, especially within rural areas who can't access sexual health services and health services in general, things like sanitary towels, and all these kind of things. And they're called Reach A Hand. So they asked me to come and be the keynote speaker for an event for them last year. I went over there and I did that. And I'm working with a few of the universities there. And they have such incredible students who are pioneering better sex education and relationship education out there. And so I'm working to support them, but also at the same time, open up those conversations within TV and media. So when I'm out there, my PR will set up interviews with me with podcasts and news channels and, you know, magazine interviews, newspaper articles. And what I must say is I've been quite positively surprised by the feedback that I've gotten. I thought there'd be a lot of resistance in terms of what I can and can't say. Backlash. I was really surprised. A lot of the TV networks, a lot of the radio stations I've gone to, they're like, wow, like, wow, we just would never. I think maybe it's because I'm coming from abroad that they probably might take it a bit more seriously. And they're thinking, oh, and again, going back to what we're saying in fashion and representation and seeing somebody that looks like you, who's then you can identify with or whatever. And I think that message coming from, because I think oftentimes when sort of sex education is coming from abroad to Africa, often it's from people who don't look like them.
So they kind of feel like, well, who are you to come and tell us what we should be doing? And it's kind of come from that perspective. So when it comes from someone like me who has a foreign accent to them, but kind of looks like them, I think the message is received a bit better. So I've just noticed that they're just a lot more positive and no one tried to filter what I say and I've been quite open. And yeah, and I can see even with the type of questions that I'm asked, I can see that, yeah, there's a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of equity and diversity within Africa and doing that in a way that they can understand and that's respectful for the culture there as well. And it's just raising awareness. So it's very similar to the work that I do here, which is all about opening up conversations about not just sex, but everything that falls under the umbrella of sex and sexual health.
Whether we're talking about periods, whether we're talking about the dating scene, I mean, I've worked with dating apps, I've worked with Tinder, I've worked with Badoo, I've worked with a few dating apps where we open up our conversation about, you know, why is it so hard for people to connect now? How has the internet and social media revolutionized the way we date? You know, the positives, the negatives, how we can go back a little bit to how we used to be, because that was a lot harder. So just all these conversations that fall under the umbrella of sexual health and then the mental health element of it and how dating and sex and all of these things can affect our mental health, our body image and how that has an impact on our general health and well-being. So I think what's great now, and even in Uganda and over here as well, I think people are now starting to look at sexual health and sexual wellness as part of general wellness. It's as natural as breathing and, you know, it's something that doesn't matter what walk of life you're from, what background, everybody has sex. This is how we all here, you know, there's no restrictions as to who you can relate to, because we all need that. We all need that education, that safe space to be able to talk about it. And so I'm really grateful and humbled of the reception that I've had from people in Uganda, and especially within the media, everyone's super supportive. And then my work over here is still, of course, ongoing and, you know, working a few projects out. And yeah, it's just, I think it's time that we normalize certain conversations.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:53
Yes. Yeah. So my final question is something I've been asking all my guests at the moment in this season, and that is around the topic of Beyond Discomfort, which is the title of my book. And I'm interested in when you, maybe there's a story or an example you can share, have felt discomfort related to diversity, equity and inclusion related that has made you stop and think, and you recognize, actually, hang on a second, maybe I do hold a bias here, or maybe there's something I need to work on here.
Sarah Mulindwa 49:29
Yeah, when it comes to bias, I think we all have to recognize and acknowledge that we all do hold bias. Let's say communication is like something, like a 90 or something, don't quote me, but you know, a massive percentage, more nonverbal than verbal. Apparently, I remember reading a statistic that said, you know, we decide about people within like seconds of meeting them before they've even spoken. Yes, I've seen bias in so many different ways. And I think because I've worked in so many different industries, whether it's in fashion, or in sexual health, I remember we had a contributor on the sex clinic once, and they were paraplegic, and they had a variety of challenges, physical challenges and disabilities. And they were contributors.
And I remember thinking, I mean, disability is an umbrella term, and there's so many disabilities. But I mean, like, with that extreme of physical disability, and they came as contributors. And I remember thinking, because part of the show was, people would come in, they'll tell their stories about, you know, with their relationship, and we get a little bit of a background story about them. And then the last bit was we do a sexual health screen. So and that was a full on screen, like if you're a woman, you're a stirrups, we're looking inside, we're doing swabs. If you're a man, we're looking at a proper health investigation. I remember thinking, how is it going to look like in terms of doing an examination, and what type of sex they would have had, and all the rest of it. And again, you know, they were paraplegic, and they had other health disabilities and challenges. So in my head, I was wondering what type of test that I would do. So even myself, I think, yeah, that was a bias when I think about it. Because in my head, almost assumed that, oh, they won't need this test, or they couldn't possibly need that test. But by the end of it, then you did almost everything, you know, and, and yeah, and again, it's something that I've never seen a patient is within that position. But I remember having to stop myself in my tracks, and thinking, and telling myself not to assume that somebody, or besides just being might not be able to have this particular type of sex, or that may not engage in this or may not want this or, and that was all based on, you know, the physical, what was presented to me. For me, when I look at it, that was something that I had to put myself up on and think, no, actually don't assume that just because somebody may not be able to do it, that they don't want to do or are not able to. That's something that I that stands out.
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:44
Yeah, and I get that. It's all about exposure to difference, isn't it? Because actually, at that point, you hadn't been exposed to someone who was paraplegic or with all of those physical disabilities, you hadn't had to consider or think about it.
Sarah Mulindwa 51:58
Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 51:58
So it's so powerful that story just to kind of know, well, actually, it's a great way of demonstrating how important it is to get people's story to better understand them, particularly if you haven't been exposed to someone with their diversity characteristics, and now what they tell you to shape your own view.
Sarah Mulindwa 52:16
Coming from them and not my preconceived ideas.
Nadia Nagamootoo 52:19
Exactly. Exactly. I could carry on talking to you for ages. But I know you have to shoot off because you've got clinics to get to. I just want to say thank you so much for joining me. If people do want to get hold of you, what are the ways in which they can do that on socials and otherwise?
Sarah Mulindwa 52:40
Yeah, so on all my socials, on Instagram, on TikTok and X, it's all at Sarah.Mulindwa.
Nadia Nagamootoo 52:43
Thank you for offering so much of your career, of the insights into sexual education, into the work you're doing in Uganda. I mean, gosh, you're incredible. And I'm so delighted to have had you on the show and to talk to you. Thank you.
Sarah Mulindwa 52:57
Oh, thank you so much, Nadia. Honestly, I had the best time and I could do another hour if you had laid me. So thank you so much for your time and for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo 53:06
That concludes episode 45 of Why Care. I can't believe how much we covered in that conversation. What I love about Sarah is her willingness to venture into discussing topics such as sexual health and menopause that many people find uncomfortable. Yet we know when they go unspoken can be harmful from a health and wellbeing perspective, if not life threatening. Thank you, Sarah, for all you're doing to keep these conversations going. Do let Sarah and I know what you thought of today's show.
You can find me on LinkedIn and Insta with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mario at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and Jenny Lynton for getting it out there on social media.
